US AND THEM: US, UN & Iraq, version 8.0

SUGGESTED SUBTOPIC FOR RETURN TO THE SUBJECT

Iraqis are human beings who want liberty like most of us. They need help securing their liberty like most of us. Civilized humans help each other secure each other's liberty like most of us. That way civilized humans maintain the security of their liberty like most of us.

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I agree- Ican,let us return to the subject of the thread. I would like to help by noting that today a US official, expert in Insurgency Intelligence, said that the latest ploy by Osama henchmen pointing out that since the US is sending a small number of troops home, President Bush and the US have lost the war, is JUST A COVER FOR THE FACT THAT THE RADICAL INSURGENTS ARE L O S I N G C O N T R O L OVER THE INDIGENOUS SUNNIS WHO APPEAR TO BE TALKING TO THE KURDISH AND SHIITE ELEMENTS AND APPEAR TO BE EDGING TOWARDS INCLUSION IN A DEMOCRATIC PARLIAMENTARY SYSTEM.

Maybe you can begin with that, Ican.

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ican711nm wrote:

SUGGESTED SUBTOPIC FOR RETURN TO THE SUBJECT

Iraqis are human beings who want liberty like most of us. They need help securing their liberty like most of us. Civilized humans help each other secure each other's liberty like most of us. That way civilized humans maintain the security of their liberty like most of us.

In the words of Bill Bonner:

While the progress of the world swells up before our eyes, we turn our eyes to the newspaper and wonder what has gone wrong, for there is the story of 100 dead in Iraq. Reading more carefully, we find that the news from Iraq could have been written 100 years ago, when the British Empire was fighting insurgents in the area. It could have been written nearly 1000 years ago, when Baghdad was under assault from the Great Khan. We also might have read it 2,000 years ago, when similar battles were fought with the Romans.

Has nothing changed? Why is our own Texas Tiberius repeating the errors made by virtually every empire that ever was: pushing beyond the limits of its resources, until it finally falls apart? And he does so at the very moment when life seems so sweet in so many ways. We Americans can barely brush our teeth often enough.

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The USA and Iraq's solution is to establish a democracy in Iraq secured by the Iraqis themselves. Iraq and the USA have completed five of seven steps toward their solution:
(1) Select an initial Iraq government to hold a first election.
(2) Establish and begin training an Iraq self-defense military.
(3) Hold a democratic election of an interim government whose primary function is to write a proposed constitution for a new Iraq democratic government.
(4) Submit that proposed constitution to Iraq voters for approval or disapproval.
(5) After approval by Iraq voters of an Iraq democratic government constitution, hold under that constitution a first election of the members of that government.
(6) Train, as specified by the new Iraq government, an Iraq military to secure that Iraq government.
(7) Remove the USA military from Iraq in a phased withdrawal.

The USA will withdraw from Iraq in phases in harmony with the evolution of Iraq's self-governance. As a consequence, both Iraqis and Americans will in their mutual self-interest achieve the followig:
(1) Stop the terrorists and Saddamists from threatening Iraq's democracy;
(2) Enabe Iraqi security forces to protect their own people;
(3) Prevent Iraq from becoming a potential safe haven for terrorists to plot attacks against the USA and other countries.

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"...establish a democracy in Iraq secured by the Iraqis themselves..." is an oxymoron. Who do you think are killing the Iraqis in addition to the American occupiers?

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Anonymouse wrote:

...
we find that the news from Iraq could have been written 100 years ago, when the British Empire was fighting insurgents in the area. It could have been written nearly 1000 years ago, when Baghdad was under assault from the Great Khan. We also might have read it 2,000 years ago, when similar battles were fought with the Romans.

Has nothing changed?
...

What has changed is that a majority of two peoples are not seeking empire, but are instead seeking to secure their mutual liberty. A majority of both these two peoples understand very well that their liberty cannot be secure for either, if it is not secure for both.

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Let me shed some light for you, life. With an open border into Iraq, there will never be enough Iraqis to fight off the insurgency. The main reason behind this is very simple. Arabs/Muslims do not want democracy (as in American-style democracy) to take hold in Iraq. If and when there's a stable government in Baghdad, there is still the problem of the on-going wars between the three tribes. Most experts see a civil war - sooner or later in Iraq. It doesn't matter how much the American occupation delays it.

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cicerone imposter wrote:

...
Arabs/Muslims do not want democracy (as in American-style democracy) to take hold in Iraq. If and when there's a stable government in Baghdad, there is still the problem of the on-going wars between the three tribes. Most experts see a civil war - sooner or later in Iraq. It doesn't matter how much the American occupation delays it.

I don't believe you or your alleged experts. I think eleven million Iraqi people, voting at the risk of their own murders by the malignant people in their midst, is quite a testimonial to how much Arabs/Muslims do want democracy.

Regardless of whether there is a civil war or wars in Iraq, the Iraqi people will fight to preserve their democracy against those in their midst who do not want a democracy.

By the way, the USA survived a civil war in its midst because a dedicated and persevering majority wanted the USA to survive.

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real, Once more. What you call "democracy" for Iraq will not resemble democracy by any stretch of the imagination. That 11-million Iraqis voted in the last election does not wipe away all the current problems which I've already outlined. Your "one goal" hope for Iraq is about as ignorant as what Bush is attempting to do; it's a waste of our men and women and our treasure. How many more of our good people are you willing to sacrifice for an unknown goal that this administration fails to articulate except "we will succeed?" Succeed at what?

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An example of the democracy ican and bush are trying to pass off as a success in their list of objectives.

Quote:

BAGHDAD, Jan. 9 -- Two suicide car bombs exploded outside Iraq's heavily-guarded Interior Ministry in Baghdad on Monday, killing at least 20 people and wounding more than 25, many of them policemen, an interior ministry official said.

Police said they were trying to establish how the bombers managed to get through a series of checkpoints in the heavily-manned compound before detonating the explosives, the Reuters news agency reported from Baghdad. The explosions occurred at 8:45 a.m. and 10:05 a.m., Lt. Ahmed Ani of the interior ministry said.

The blasts damaged more than 14 civilian vehicles. The interior ministry is located next to the Police Academy, where a ceremony celebrating the 84th anniversary of the formation of the Iraqi police force was taking place at the time of the blasts. U.S. ambassador Zalmay Khalizad, and the Iraqi defense and interior ministers were attending the ceremony, according to Reuters.

Iraq's interior ministry has been attacked several times by insurgents, who accuse it of running Shiite militia that target the minority Sunni Arab community.

In November, U.S. troops found a bunker run by the interior ministry containing 170 prisoners, most of whom were Sunni Arabs. Many showed signs they had been abused and tortured.

Separately, an Iraqi judge, Khalid Hazzaa Bayati, was assassinated today in front of his house in the ethnically diverse city of Kirkuk, 160 miles north of the capital, said Col. Yadgar Abdullah of the city's police.

"The judge was assassinated at 9:30 a.m. by a group of armed men in front of his house in Mualimeen neighborhood in central Kirkuk," Abdullah said. He added that the judge dealt with cases of detainees and criminals.

source

There is some AQ in Iraq but there is also infighting among the ethnic groups and it don't look like it is going to stop any time soon.

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It is not to be reasonably assumed that the "al Qaeda" which is in Iraq is a part of the al Qaeda which bin Laden founded in Pakistan nearly thirty years ago. Zarqawi simply took his vicious program and named it "al Qaeda in Iraq." That sort of nonsense plays into the propaganda of the the shrill and hysterical among the rightwing nuts.

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Yup. Zarqawi replaced Osama and Hussein as the "face" of the enemy. It's a purposeful propaganda move designed to make the 'enemy' more real through personalization and narrative.

You'll see these guys do the trick regularly...the Smith family who farm in Idaho with three ruddy-faced kids and a Ford tractor and eighty cows who, if they have to pay a 'death tax', will have to will their youngest child for scientific research.

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cicerone imposter wrote:

Let me shed some light for you, life. With an open border into Iraq, there will never be enough Iraqis to fight off the insurgency. The main reason behind this is very simple. Arabs/Muslims do not want democracy (as in American-style democracy) to take hold in Iraq. If and when there's a stable government in Baghdad, there is still the problem of the on-going wars between the three tribes. Most experts see a civil war - sooner or later in Iraq. It doesn't matter how much the American occupation delays it.

This is sadly true. The Iraqi election result was good news for Iran, strongly Shia.

"What we will leave behind, after hundreds of billions of dollars and tens of thousands of lost lives, will be a long ways from the neoconservative fantasy of creating a compliant democracy in the heart of the Middle East. It is absurd for Bush to assert that the election "means that America has an ally of growing strength in the fight against terror," ignoring how he has "lost" Iraq to the influence and model of "Axis of Evil" Iran.

Tehran's rogue regime, which has bedeviled every U.S. president since Jimmy Carter, now looms larger than ever over the region and most definitely over its oil. "Iran wins big in Iraq's election," reads an Asia Times headline, speaking a truth that American policy makers and much of the media is bent on ignoring: "The Shiite religious coalition, the United Iraqi Alliance (UIA), not only held together, but also can be expected to dominate the new 275-member National Assembly for the next four years," the paper predicts based on the returns to date. "Former premier Ayad Allawi's prospects of leading the new government seem virtually nil. And Ahmed Chalabi's Iraqi National Accord suffered a shattering defeat."

http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/29952/

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The bald assed truth is that we have raped the mother, impregnated her, with our ideology, and will soon be forced to abandon the bastard child to be consumed by wolves. All routes return to the point of departure .... the rubicon

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Doesn't the fact that the Shia are the dominate group in Iraq have a part to play in the election of Shiites to government? Correct me if I am wrong, but Iraq has a freely elected government and Iran does not, yes? That both countries have large populations of Shiites matters little. I believe Canada and the United States have large population of white Christians... does that mean anything? Nope.

Iraq will remain a seperate entity from Iran. The people there have been repressed for too long to forget what it is like and I doubt very seriously they will allow themselves to be integrated into Iran. Too many bad memories from the Iran-Iraq war to allow that to happen.

Freedom is the word of the day in Iraq.

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McGentrix wrote:

Doesn't the fact that the Shia are the dominate group in Iraq have a part to play in the election of Shiites to government? Correct me if I am wrong, but Iraq has a freely elected government and Iran does not, yes? That both countries have large populations of Shiites matters little. I believe Canada and the United States have large population of white Christians... does that mean anything? Nope.

Iraq will remain a seperate entity from Iran. The people there have been repressed for too long to forget what it is like and I doubt very seriously they will allow themselves to be integrated into Iran. Too many bad memories from the Iran-Iraq war to allow that to happen.

Freedom is the word of the day in Iraq.

Print that out, why don't you, and keep it till next year.
I think by then, quite possibly, Iraq will be fragmented and Iran one-third bigger.

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Well, we will have to wait and see on that one won't we. Who's to say that the Iranians, sick to death of their repressive government won't overthrow their arse and join Iraq? Freedom has a very addictive effect on people.

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McGentrix wrote:

Well, we will have to wait and see on that one won't we. Who's to say that the Iranians, sick to death of their repressive government won't overthrow their arse and join Iraq? Freedom has a very addictive effect on people.

Strange. The Iranians have not long since had an election. They moved to the right, and elected a hard-line fundamentalist government.
The invasion of their neighbour by the west, quite predictably in my view, had that effect.

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Is what happened in Iran what passes for a free election in your part of the world? Saddam used to win elections too.

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US AND THEM: US, UN & Iraq, version 8.0

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