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US AND THEM: US, UN & Iraq, version 8.0

 
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Oct, 2005 11:47 am
Iran must feel truly blessed by Allah. Its all going so well. The Americans have got rid of Saddam and the Taliban. Now the Americans are dependent on Iran for keeping the lid on the newly liberated Iraq. We went to war on a secular state partly "against terrorism" only make terrorism much worse and strenthen the Islamic Republic of Iran.

quote from todays newstatesman

Iran's new allies, Bush and Blair

"Nobody in Washington or London would admit it but Tony Blair and George Bush have unwittingly become the biggest allies of Irans clerical regime. The "war on terror" has removed two of its chief enemies, the Taliban and Saddam Hussein. Iranian allies are in power in Baghdad under US patronage and Iranian agents have infiltrated Shia militias in southern Iraq under the eyes of British troops.
True, American armies now surround Iran but that means they are within easier reach of Iranian revolutionary guards, secret agents and Iraqi allies. Nobody can tell for sure how far Iran was involved in stirring up the latest violence against British troops in Basra, but British security experts are sure of one thing: if things are bad now they will get a lot worse if Tehran wants it that way. "We have asked ourselves what would happen if the Iranians were to send a division across the border into Iraq" said on British source. "The British forces on the ground would be over run even with US air support".

And this from another article by Stephen Grey

When I visited the intelligence department at Jamiat Police Station I found prisoners stiff with fear bound and gagged....on the wall was a poster of Ayatollah Khomeini
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Oct, 2005 01:55 pm
It's about the oil:




October 3, 2005
Good Energy
By RICK MORANIS

Subject: look at the time! - can't sleep

Date: 10/03/2005 3:24 a.m. eastern daylight time

From: [email protected]

To: [email protected]

Dear Micki and Stan,

I've decided that we will not be coming to Shelley's wedding in December. (By the way, congratulations again on this wonderful event in your lives. You should be very proud and happy with how terrifically things have turned out.) Unfortunately for us, a wedding in Westport would require non-essential driving and I must honor President Bush's wishes to limit the amount of energy I consume in order to do my part during these difficult and challenging times for our country.

I realize that if all of your guests felt the same way, there would be tremendous consequences for many decent, hard-working people. The tuxedo-rental industry, the caterers, waiters, musicians, florists and table linen people would all lose important income. But when I think of the energy saved in dry cleaning alone, it warms my heart to think I can help make a difference with a personal commitment against wasteful consumption and reckless indulgence in our sick culture.

Needless to say, we'll be with you in spirit and a handsome gift will be sent.

On that note, I've looked at all of Shelley and Michael's bridal registry sites on line and though I think their china pattern is absolutely gorgeous, I'm reluctant to go in that direction because it will involve delivery by one of the nation's leading shipping companies. That kind of non-essential driving is problematic for me at this time, especially given the low gas mileage those trucks undoubtedly get.

I'd appreciate the wiring instructions to the appropriate bank account so I can electronically transfer energy-free funds directly. I'll leave it up to their discretion how to spend, or donate, said monies.

Things are good here, thank God. We had a marvelous summer. The addition finally got finished in Sagaponack. You must plan to come out one weekend. Other than the traffic, it's pure heaven. To think I had the foresight to buy so long before the bubble. And to stay north of the highway, far from any potential beach erosion and the inevitable future storm consequences.

Have to admit I feel a bit guilty heating and cooling a 12,560-square-foot second home, but this winter we're letting Juan and Maria stay in the main house while the gatehouse is being steel-reinforced and rewired for the property's new security system.

To think I was the first person to have a solar pool cover!

Like everyone else, I'm so concerned about the state of the world. I so want to believe the war is important and I think I still do. I'm very worried about the polar ice cap. We didn't get all the way up there on our Alaska cruise but I hear it's melting big-time.

One thing puzzles me the most. Why has no one come out against auto racing? Every weekend in this county, millions of people get in their silly souped-up cars and drive to huge stadiums to watch other people drive around in circles at ridiculously high speeds. There's no way those race cars are fuel-efficient.

Anyway, congratulations again. Let me know if you ever decide to not drive into the city to use your opera subscription.

Much love.

P.S. Did I tell you I'm getting a gun?

Rick Moranis, the creator of rickmoranis.com, has released a country music album, "The Agoraphobic Cowboy."
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Oct, 2005 10:07 am
Whose opinion really counts?

Distributed by American Committees on Foreign Relations, ACFR NewsGroup (description at: www.acfr.org ) No 613, Monday, October 3, 2005; the author wrote:


Survey Says: Polls and the Muslim World
By Robert Satloff
New Republic Online
September 30, 2005

The inaugural Middle East tour of Karen Hughes, America's chief public diplomat, has occasioned yet another round of hand-wringing over the crisis of Arab anti-Americanism. Reuters explained that "the sagging American image abroad needed a facelift," while The Christian Science Monitor predicted that Hughes "won't have to listen too closely to hear the widespread anger over perceived U.S. arrogance and heavy-handedness." At the same time, the just-leaked findings of the congressionally mandated Advisory Committee on Cultural Diplomacy state bluntly that "America's image and reputation abroad could hardly be worse." None of this comes as much of a surprise. After all, everyone accepts that America is widely loathed in the Arab world.

And yet it's worth asking: Is it true? The assumption that Arabs are enraged at America relies heavily on a single-source polling data. But there are two major problems with polls of Arab public opinion: the way those polls are generally reported; and the accuracy of the polls themselves. The indefatigable Israeli politician Shimon Peres once famously said that polls are like perfume--beautiful to smell, deadly to drink. At least where contemporary polls of Arab and Muslim public opinion are concerned, he was on to something.

For an example of the first problem, take the widely cited Pew Global Attitudes Survey. Guided by a stellar group of renowned statesmen and academic experts, the "Pew polls," as they are known, are regarded as the gold standard of international public opinion measurements.

One of Pew's most newsworthy polls was its March 2004 survey, "A Year After Iraq War: Mistrust of America in Europe Ever Higher; Muslim Anger Persists." The press advisory that accompanied the survey results highlighted a deepening divide between the United States and Muslim societies, a charge that was picked up in Cassandra-like headlines in newspapers across the country.

Evidently few reporters took the time to read the fine print in the poll itself. If they did, they would have found that the poll provided absolutely no evidence to support the charge that "Muslim anger persists." In fact, the word "anger" did not appear in a single poll question. Muslims did give high "unfavorable" ratings to the United States, but there is considerable difference between viewing something unfavorably and being angry at it. (Think of broccoli or Britney Spears.) Pew evidently recognized how problematic this was; in the 2005 version of the Global Attitudes Survey, released in June, references to such sensationalist (and unsubstantiated) terms as "anger" were nowhere to be found. But the damage was already done.

Pew's general pattern has been to downplay results that suggest America's standing is less bleak than commonly assumed. In 2004, for example, one question found that--in contrast to Europeans--Arabs and Muslims overwhelmingly endorsed America's role as the world's sole superpower, with huge majorities saying that international security would be endangered by the emergence of a global competitor to the United States. The press advisory made no mention of this. Similarly, the advisory avoided the fact that in three of four Muslim countries polled, there was a significant increase in the number of respondents who gave the United States a passing grade--that is, "excellent," "good," or "only fair"--for its performance in Iraq compared to the previous year's poll; in only one country, Turkey, did the percentage characterizing America's performance as "poor" rise, and that was just 2 percent. In Pew's summary of the 2005 survey, there is scant reference to a remarkable set of positive trends: Compared to previous results, all Muslim countries polled had a less critical image of President Bush; a more favorable view of the United States (here again, Turkey was the sole exception); a stronger sense that America truly favors democracy in their country; and a greater receptivity to implementing Western-style democracy. That certainly runs against the common wisdom regarding the political attitudes of Arabs and Muslims.

Aside from flaws in how these poll results are reported, there are structural factors that can chip away at the fundamental validity of polling in many Arab countries. These problems flow primarily from the difference between liberal democracies and the controlled authoritarian states that prevail in much of the Middle East. For example, should we take at face value data from countries where freedom of speech is highly circumscribed or where the populace has no experience in answering provocative questions from strange people promising to keep the replies secret? And shouldn't we look twice at results from countries whose rulers have an interest in Washington continuing to fear an allegedly outraged anti-American populace?

Then there is the less sinister problem of language. Polls in Arab countries are almost always done in Arabic, despite the fact that about one-quarter of the citizens of these countries--including Berbers, Kurds, Turcomans, Sudanese animists, and others--are not Arab and may not speak Arabic as their first language. Ask a Moroccan the same question in Arabic and a Berber dialect, for example, and there is a good chance of getting different results--for the simple reason that talking in each language is itself a political statement, with local, national, and international implications.

Lastly, there is the issue of sample. Pew pollsters, for instance, are able to work in four countries that alone represent about forty percent of all Muslims--the world's two most populous Muslim countries (Indonesia and Pakistan) and two with the world's largest Muslim minorities (China and India). In contrast, Pew operates in just three Arab countries (Morocco, Jordan, Lebanon) whose population amounts to less than 15 percent of all Arab states combined; importantly, none are among the region's political heavyweights and none are in the Gulf. One simply can't discern general trends about Arab public opinion from polls based on such a small and geographically skewed sample.

None of this suggests that all surveys of Arab opinion are bad. Undertaken professionally and disseminated dispassionately, they have a useful role to play in shaping understanding of Arab political dynamics. But a singular reliance on professed Arab attitudes--what Arab publics say--should not be enough. At the very least, this process ought to be complemented by a thorough assessment of what Arab publics do. This is the old fashioned method. In the pre-polling era, there were two reliable measures of anti-Americanism: state action (such as the Arab oil embargo) and mass action (especially street protests). Boycotts of high-profile American goods or companies cut across these two categories, as sometimes they represent decisions of government or state enterprises and at other times they reflect the collective action of thousands of individual consumers.

Using these indicators, the situation does not appear quite so dire. On the state level, it's business as usual, and then some. Although Arab petroleum exporters could choke our economy by turning off the spigot, they appear more interested in reaping the gains of high prices. One after another, Muslim leaders are lining up to sign free-trade agreements with the United States and to shake the hand of Israel's leader at the United Nations. It doesn't look like many are fearful of anti-American backlashes at home.

On the mass level, the famed "Arab street" is largely inactive. Despite the high number of civilian deaths in Iraq, it is extremely rare for Arabs to gather in large numbers to protest the U.S. occupation. Indeed, the largest Arab protest this year--the Lebanese demonstration demanding the withdrawal of Syrian forces--was decidedly pro-American.

At the same time, recent Arab boycotts of high-profile American companies--if they had any traction at all--were short-lived and ultimately ineffective. McDonald’s sales in Asia, the Middle East, and Africa did fall in 2003, when U.S.-led forces invaded Iraq, but have rebounded strongly ever since. Even Caterpillar, under pressure for doing business with the Israel Defense Forces, appears to turn a handsome profit in the Middle East, with revenues for its division that include Arab countries up 50 percent in the past two years.

To be sure, none of this is proof that all is well in America's relations with Arab publics. But the truth of the situation is far more nuanced than the commonly held image of a region in which millions of Arabs rush out of bed each day to burn effigies of Uncle Sam before their morning coffee. The prime mission of post-9/11 public diplomacy is identifying, nurturing, and supporting Muslim allies in the ideological battle against radical Islamist extremism. That task is difficult--yet doable. But it will only seem impossible if we guzzle every fragrance in the department store.

Robert Satloff is executive director of The Washington Institute for Near East Policy.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Oct, 2005 10:39 am
More trouble in Iraq - from the BBC:


UN condemns Iraq charter change

Opposition to the constitution is strongest in Sunni areas
The United Nations has criticised changes to Iraq's electoral law that make it harder for Iraqis to reject the draft constitution.
The two-thirds majority needed in three provinces to defeat the constitution will now be counted from all registered - as opposed to actual - voters.

On Sunday Shia and Kurdish members of parliament pushed through the changes in the referendum rules on 15 October.

Sunni Arabs reacted angrily to the amendments on Monday.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Oct, 2005 11:43 am
cicerone imposter wrote:
More trouble in Iraq - from the BBC:

UN condemns Iraq charter change

Opposition to the constitution is strongest in Sunni areas
The United Nations has criticised changes to Iraq's electoral law that make it harder for Iraqis to reject the draft constitution.
The two-thirds majority needed in three provinces to defeat the constitution will now be counted from all registered - as opposed to actual - voters.

On Sunday Shia and Kurdish members of parliament pushed through the changes in the referendum rules on 15 October.

Sunni Arabs reacted angrily to the amendments on Monday.


I do not blame the Sunni for reacting angrily to these changes. I too reacted and am reacting angrily.

If these changes are not rescinded before the Iraq Constitution vote, I hope this Constitution is defeated decisively.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Oct, 2005 12:30 pm
Quote:
Londoners think Iraq contributed to terror
Source
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Oct, 2005 12:49 pm
Quote:

BAGHDAD -- Ask the generals and colonels who are running the war in Iraq what really worries them, and it's rarely a military problem. "We haven't lost a platoon in combat! We haven't lost a skirmish!" explodes one general when describing a recent poll that reported a majority of Americans think we are losing the war.


They don't lose platoons or skirmishes because in times of trouble they call in air strikes and blast the area all to hell, including any civilians who might be in the way.
This makes perfect military sense, but is immoral and is one of the reasons that the trust and support of ordinary Iraqis is unobtainable; therefore contains the seeds of eventual failure.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Oct, 2005 12:52 pm
to me its a bit like worrying about hornets from the nest at the bottom of the garden. Someone might get stung. What to do?

T Blair and G Bush " lets go down and give it a good kicking".

(later) "Damn, we've been stung by a hornet".
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Oct, 2005 01:04 pm
I'm not a Londoner, but I also think their involvement in the Iraq war was responsible for terrorist attack in their city/country.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Oct, 2005 02:28 pm
I think when people say we are loosing the war, they are not talking technically. Technically we have already won the war when we got Saddam Hussein and took control of the country (or so we thought on the last one).

What they mean is that we have not gain any strides in rebuilding Iraq in any meaningful way because of we can't stop or manage the insurgency to a level where Iraqis can have normal lives.

Sometimes I think people just don't want to admit the obvious.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Oct, 2005 02:35 pm
you have increased the terrorist threat
failed to secure oil
bolstered the iranian theocracy
created 10 000 bin ladens

thats what i mean by losing
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Oct, 2005 03:11 pm
Steve is right; the war is not limited to the capture of Saddam; it must include everything that is related to this war including the 100,000 innocent Iraqis killed by the coalition forces.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Oct, 2005 03:31 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
Steve is right; the war is not limited to the capture of Saddam; it must include everything that is related to this war including the 100,000 innocent Iraqis killed by the coalition forces.
Rolling Eyes

I think you are confusing the more than a 150,000 innocent Iraqis murdered by Saddam's regime 1991 - 2003 with the number of innocent Iraqis killed since 2003. The number of innocent Iraqis killed since the Iraq invasion in 2003 by coalition forces is less than 10,000. The number of innocent Iraqis killed since 2003 by malignancy is more than 20,000.

If the malignancy were to stop murdering innocent Iraqis, there would no longer be any need for coalition forces to remain in Iraq to help protect innocent Iraqis, and the coalition forces would happily leave. Then the Iraqi death rate would drop like a rock.

On the otherhand, if the coalition forces were to leave now, the Iraqis death rate would climb like a rocket.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Oct, 2005 04:06 pm
I'm not confused at all! Saddam killed many of his own people. If you look closely into Africa, some governments and militias have killed millions. Just because somebody kills people, that doesn't give us license to do the same. Your logic is missing.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Oct, 2005 04:07 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
I'm not a Londoner, but I also think their involvement in the Iraq war was responsible for terrorist attack in their city/country.

I think growing opposition in Britain (and also in Turkey and Spain) to the Iraq war is what encouraged malignancy to strike. Nothing stirs them up so much as a marked display of hesitation and/or cowardice among the populace and/or government of a democracy. For example:

In its 1998 fatwah al Qaeda declared:
Quote:
to kill the Americans and their allies -- civilians and military -- is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it


Because of this declaration, I think it unwise (to say the least) to presume that the number of civilians murdered worldwide by al Qaeda since our invasion of Iraq, is more than the number of civilians al Qaeda might have murdered worldwide if we had not invaded Iraq.

in its 1996 fatwah there is much more evidence that al Qaeda's murder objectives are encouraged and not discouraged by hesitation and/or cowardice on our part to defend ourselves and others against al Qaeda:
Quote:
Few days ago the news agencies had reported that the Defence Secretary of the Crusading Americans had said that "the explosion at Riyadh and Al-Khobar had taught him one lesson: that is not to withdraw when attacked by coward terrorists".

We say to the Defence Secretary that his talk can induce a grieving mother to laughter! and shows the fears that had enshrined you all. Where was this false courage of yours when the explosion in Beirut took place on 1983 AD (1403 A.H). You were turned into scattered pits and pieces at that time; 241 mainly marines solders were killed. And where was this courage of yours when two explosions made you to leave Aden in lees than twenty four hours!

But your most disgraceful case was in Somalia; where- after vigorous propaganda about the power of the USA and its post cold war leadership of the new world order- you moved tens of thousands of international force, including twenty eight thousands American solders into Somalia. However, when tens of your solders were killed in minor battles and one American Pilot was dragged in the streets of Mogadishu you left the area carrying disappointment, humiliation, defeat and your dead with you. Clinton appeared in front of the whole world threatening and promising revenge , but these threats were merely a preparation for withdrawal. You have been disgraced by Allah and you withdrew; the extent of your impotence and weaknesses became very clear. It was a pleasure for the "heart" of every Muslim and a remedy to the "chests" of believing nations to see you defeated in the three Islamic cities of Beirut , Aden and Mogadishu.

...

I say to you William [Perry] (Defence Secretary) that: These youths [love] death as you love life. They inherit dignity, pride, courage, generosity, truthfulness and sacrifice from father to father. They are most delivering and steadfast at war. They inherit these values from their ancestors (even from the time of the Jaheliyyah, before Islam). These values were approved and completed by the arriving Islam as stated by the messenger of Allah (Allah's Blessings and Salutations may be on him): "I have been send to perfecting the good values". (Saheeh Al-Jame' As-Sagheer).


Al Qaeda will attempt to do exactly what it has declared it will do regardless of our efforts, unless we succeed in exterminating al Qaeda, this malignancy, wherever we find it.

TOMNOM and MADD Arguments made against our invasion of Iraq and our subsequent efforts to secure a democracy there of the Iraqis own design, provoke al Qaeda to unleash worse horrors, not less horrors. Such arguments are interpreted by al Qaeda as vindication of their mass murder of civilians. Such arguments serve as fuel to increase the rate of mass murder of civilians worldwide.

But CI, am I correct in expecting that you assign a higher priority to expressing your hatred of Bush than to stopping malignancy?
0 Replies
 
Kara
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Oct, 2005 04:07 pm
Quote:
is less than 10,000.


Only 10,000 innocent souls. A mere smudge on the documents of history.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Oct, 2005 04:08 pm
The two are the same.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 4 Oct, 2005 04:40 pm
Kara wrote:
Quote:
is less than 10,000.


Only 10,000 innocent souls. A mere smudge on the documents of history.


Kara, whether you like it or not, we are confronted by a horrible tradeoff:

1. Risk questioning our current notions of personal innocense by unintentionally killing a large number of innocent souls in order to stop the intentional killing (i.e., murder) of a much larger number of innocent souls;

2. Do not risk questioning our current notions of personal innocense by unintentionally killing a large number of innocent souls in order to stop the intentional killing (i.e., murder) of a much larger number of innocent souls.

More simply: Preserve as many lives as we can versus preserve personal innocense.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Oct, 2005 04:32 am
ican711nm wrote:
cicerone imposter wrote:
I'm not a Londoner, but I also think their involvement in the Iraq war was responsible for terrorist attack in their city/country.

I think growing opposition in Britain (and also in Turkey and Spain) to the Iraq war is what encouraged malignancy to strike. Nothing stirs them up so much as a marked display of hesitation and/or cowardice among the populace and/or government of a democracy.


I hope you are not accusing me of cowardice Ican. I do admit to being a little nervous about using the tube these days, but you see its only a few weeks since a bomb went off deep underground (on the Piccadilly line near Russell Square). The train was packed. It was 500m into the tunnel. It took weeks to get the decomposing body parts out. A woman who used to live not far from me was killed, going to work at the Boy Scouts Association hq. Ian Blair the Metropolitian police commissioner says another attack is almost inevitable. However, people are still using the network to get to work etc., not out of bravado as you might suspect, but because they have no ******* choice. There has however been a marked drop in the number of tourists using the tube.

So I will continue to use the network and ponder on the fact that if USUK forces had properly taken control of Iraq and nipped the insurgency in the bud, I might not feel so uncomfortable about the young Asian man with a rucksack at his feet.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Oct, 2005 11:16 am
Iraq U-turn on charter vote rules

The constitution is seen as crucial to fulfilling US plans for Iraq
Iraq's parliament has reversed its decision to change the rules governing a referendum next week on the country's new constitution.
The altered rules would have made it much harder for Sunni opponents of the draft constitution to reject it.

Parliament has now decided to revert to the original rules - as both the United Nations and Washington said it should.

UN legal advisors said that a referendum held under the new rules would not meet international standards.

After a brief debate, MPs voted 119 to 28 to restore the original voting rules for the referendum.

Only about half of the 275-member body attended the vote, although a quorum was achieved.
0 Replies
 
 

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