revel wrote:...Ican, Article TWo says:
Quote:Article (2): 1st - Islam is the official religion of the state and is a basic source of legislation: (a) No law can be passed that contradicts the undisputed rules of Islam. (b) No law can be passed that contradicts the principles of democracy. (c) No law can be passed that contradicts the rights and basic freedoms outlined in this constitution. 2nd - This constitution guarantees the Islamic identity of the majority of the Iraqi people and the full religious rights for all individuals and the freedom of creed and religious practices.
One more time:
Quote:Article (2):
1st - Islam is the official religion of the state and is a basic source of legislation:
(a) No law can be passed that contradicts the undisputed rules of Islam.
(b) No law can be passed that contradicts the principles of democracy.
(c) No law can be passed that contradicts the rights and basic freedoms outlined in this constitution.
Excellent! So far so good! Now, Revel, please read articles 13, 14, 15, 16, and 151.
[boldface added]Quote:Article (13):
1st-This constitution shall be considered as the supreme and highest law in Iraq. It shall be binding througout the whole country without exceptions.
2nd-No law that contradicts this constitution shall be passed; any passage in the regional constitutions and any other legal passages that contradict this constitution shall be considered null.
Article (14):
Iraqis are equal before the law without discrimination because of sex, ethnicity, nationality, origin, colour, religion, sect, belief, opinion, or social or econoic status.
Article (15):
Every individual has the right to life and security and freedom and cannot be deprived of these rights or have them restricted except in accordance with law and based on a ruling by the appropriate judicial body.
Article (16):
Equal opportunity is a right guaranteed to all Iraqis, and the state shall take the necessary steps to achieve this.
Article (151):
A proportion of no less than 25% of the seats in the Council of Reresentatives is specified for the participation of women.
cicerone imposter wrote:...
Doesn't Islamic law prohibit the ownership of property by women?
No! Such an interpretation of Islamic law is
disputed among Muslims.
ican, I'm not sure who your Muslim sources are, but here's an article by Muslim women:
Issues of Concern for Muslim Women
Renewed interest in and enthusiasm for Islam as a means of change is emerging in many parts of the world. By implementing Islamic principles, Muslims are hoping to improve their condition on many fronts, be they social, political, economic or others. The Muslim world is comprised of people of a variety of nationalities and ethnicities which, combined with geographical realities, determine priorities of action for improving the lives of women.
Most Muslims are taught that Islam liberated women by giving them rights not previously enjoyed. Some examples include rights of ownership, decision-making in marriage, divorce and so on. Indeed, when reviewing primary Muslim sources of Qur'an and authentic Hadith (words and deeds of Prophet Muhammed), one is impressed by an overall image of men and women as equal partners as those who are expected by God to "enjoin the doing of what is right and forbid the doing of what is wrong" (9:71) in all spheres of life, and to act as His vicegerents in ensuring justice, freedom and equality for all.
The importance of developing a strong family as the major building block of a strong society is clearly expressed in Islamic literature. The family unit is solidified by mutual respect, understanding and compassion that applies within the family and among all members of society in general.
Unfortunately, over time, many of the original principles have been abandoned or modified to suit political agendas, thus presenting Muslims with laws and images that hardly resembled the original Islamic community led by Muhammad. Many of these laws were generated between the 10th and 12th centuries, long after the death of Muhammad, and are particularly reflected in legislation today related to marriage and divorce which often place women at a distinct disadvantage.
Muslims who live as minorities in non-Islamic countries are also affected by the sexist and authoritarian attitudes that pervade many communities and impact behavior in terms of marriage, divorce, abuse, exclusion of women from the mosques and decision-making bodies, double standards applied to male and female children and so on.
Because of a belief in a liberated, equitable and dignified position of women outlined in the Qur'an, many Muslims, men and women alike, are calling for reevaluation of attitudes and practices that, although done in the name of Islam, are actually contrary to the basic messages found in the primary sources. To question and possibly oppose entrenched positions that are based on archaic laws, weak Hadith, or cultural trends, requires courage and conviction on the part of religious leaders. But this is necessary and worth any risks in order to enable women to achieve liberation through Islam as originally intended.
Major problem areas that need to be addressed include the following:
Family laws pertaining to marriage and divorce that reinforce the image of relationships based on a hierarchy with the rights of the husband superceding those of the wife and that prevent women from being in control of their lives.
Violence against women which occurs in the home, community, and as a consequence of warfare which is claimed by some to be allowed by Islam when it is not.
Abuse of certain Islamic practices that affect women negatively, such as polygamy and temporary marriage, when applied out of context and without abiding by Islamic restrictions.
Excluding women from religious activities such as attendance in the mosque which has clearly been established as the Muslim woman's right.
Failure to promote the importance of a woman's contribution to society beyond child-bearing.
Failure to enable women to take advantage of rights of property ownership and inheritance outlined by Islam.
Focusing on the behavior of women as a marker for morality in society and subjecting them to harassment, intimidation or discrimination.
Lack of awareness of the important role of men in contributing significantly in sharing household responsiblities and child-rearing as exemplified by Prophet Muhammed.
Until recently, because of a pervasive sexist and oppressive presentation of women in Islam, Muslim women often felt the only way to be liberated intellectually, socially, politically and economically was by abandoning Islam. There appears to be a growing movement of Islamist women who are demanding that the rights guaranteed by Islam must be applied in their communities. In addition, women are joining the ranks of Islamic scholars, thus providing alternative points of view to what has heretofore been addressed by men. Reviewing Islamic history from an egalitarian perspective, recalling contributions of Muslim women over the centuries, exploring current practices and laws and criticizing them from an Islamic point of view, examining texts as they pertain to women specifically are a few examples of some areas addressed by women scholars today.
Muslims today are facing great challenges from within and without. Oftentimes, calls for change are seen as tools of an outside power that is seeking to undermine the efforts of Islam and Muslims. Certain geopolitical realities lend credence to this view. However, the current desire for change on the part of Muslim women is perhaps more borne out of the fervent belief in the image of the Muslim woman as communicated by God in the Qur'an of a liberated, vital human being who can work in cooperation with men on many levels to contribute to the betterment of society. They seek to expose this concept which has been buried by the persistence of attitudes that focus on competition and subsequent subjugation of one sex over the other in direct conflict with the spirit of the Qur'anic verse:
"And thus does their Lord answer their prayer: I shall not lose sight of the work of any of you who works (in My way) be it man or woman: You are members, one of another." (3:195).
September 1995
cicerone imposter wrote:ican, I'm not sure who your Muslim sources are, but here's an article by Muslim women:
Issues of Concern for Muslim Women
...
Because of a belief in a liberated, equitable and dignified position of women outlined in the Qur'an, many Muslims, men and women alike, are calling for reevaluation of attitudes and practices that, although done in the name of Islam, are actually contrary to the basic messages found in the primary sources. To question and possibly oppose entrenched positions that are based on archaic laws, weak Hadith, or cultural trends, requires courage and conviction on the part of religious leaders. But this is necessary and worth any risks in order to enable women to achieve liberation through Islam as originally intended.
...
September 1995
I based my previous response to you on the same ideas (i.e., as expressed in the above paragraph) as were presented in a pamphlet I read several years ago.
cicerone imposter wrote:
...
Doesn't Islamic law prohibit the ownership of property by women?
ican711nm wrote:No! Such an interpretation of Islamic law is disputed among Muslims.
Ican I am betting you have no more an idea of what is in dispute among muslims than I do.
My point was that nothing can get written in the consitution if it goes against undisputed Islamic law.
As near as I can tell they didn't state what parts of Islam are in dispute.
It is all kind of vague.
ican, You are assuming that the new Iraq constitution will follow the Quoran to the letter rather than the many interpretations of it. How can you be so sure?
[URL=http://]http://www.eia.doe.gov/cabs/images/iraqoil.gif[/URL]
(source:
eia country analysis)
Quote:Iraq now finds itself in a period of uncertainty and transition after more than three decades of Ba'ath party rule. Following the end of Saddam Hussein's rule in the spring of 2003, Iraq was governed for a year by the "Coalition Provisional Authority (CPA)" led by the United States and the United Kingdom. On June 28, 2004, the CPA transferred power to a sovereign Iraqi interim government, with national elections held on January 30, 2005. On May 3, 2005, the new transitional government was sworn in, with Ibrahim Jaafari as Prime Minister. A permanent constitution is to be voted on in an October 15, 2005 referendum. After that, assuming the constitution is approved, elections for a permanent government are scheduled to take place in December 2005. Iraqi oil production currently is around 1.9 million bbl/d, with net exports of about 1.45 million bbl/d.
Prior to the war, during January and February 2003, Iraq was producing around 2.5 million bbl/d and exporting 2.0 million bbl/d, mainly via the country's two U.N.-authorized export routes: the Turkish port of Ceyhan; and the Persian Gulf port of Mina al-Bakr (now called "Basra"). In addition, Iraq reportedly was smuggling 200,000-400,000 bbl/d of crude oil and products via a number of routes, including Turkey, Syria, Iran, Dubai, and Jordan. Today, the Kirkuk-Ceyhan is frequently offline due to sabotage (e.g., at the end of February 2005), and the Basra port has periodic problems as well.
In the years preceding the war, and in anticipation of the eventual lifting of economic sanctions, Iraq had signed or otherwise negotiated several potentially lucrative oil and gas deals (which will come into effect when sanctions are lifted) with companies from Russia, France, and China, and also had invited international partners to invest in natural gas projects worth $4.2 billion. Following the war, the status of these agreements is now somewhat unclear.
According to the Oil and Gas Journal, Iraq contains 115 billion barrels of proven oil reserves, the third largest in the world (behind Saudi Arabia and Canada). Estimates of Iraq's oil reserves and resources vary widely, however, given that only 10 percent or so of the country has been explored. Some analysts (the Baker Institute, Center for Global Energy Studies, the Federation of American Scientists, etc.) believe, for instance, that deep oil-bearing formations located mainly in the vast Western Desert region, for instance, could yield large additional oil resources (possibly another 100 billion barrels or more), but have not been explored. Other analysts, such as the US Geological Survey, are not as optimistic, with median estimates for additional oil reserves closer to 45 billion barrels. Historically, Iraqi production peaked in December 1979 at 3.7 million bbl/d, and then in July 1990, just prior to its invasion of Kuwait, at 3.5 million bbl/d. As of early August 2005, however, Iraq was producing only 1.9 million bbl/d.
World Energy "Areas To Watch"
ican711nm wrote:revel wrote:Ican I am betting you have no more an idea of what is in dispute among muslims than I do.
Since I don't know what you know, I have zero basis for agreeing or disagreeing with you, so I won't take your bet either way. 
My point was that nothing can get written in the consitution if it goes against undisputed Islamic law.
We agree! So if we are both correct, none of what is actually written in the Iraqi constitution "goes against undisputed Islamic law."
As near as I can tell they didn't state what parts of Islam are in dispute.
True! They didn't state that in their constitution. However, they did state in their constitution Articles 13, 14, 15, 16, and 151. Together those articles make it plain it is not disputable that women are not to be discriminated against.
It is all kind of vague.
It seems clear enough to me!
I know nothing about what is in dispute among muslims.
We do not know what Iraqi Muslims consider to be discrimination. It may be different than what we consider to be discrimination. That was one of the points of Gel's article. That was why I said it was vague.
cicerone imposter wrote:ican, You are assuming that the new Iraq constitution will follow the Quoran to the letter rather than the many interpretations of it. How can you be so sure?
I'm not assuming any such thing. Here in the US we don't even follow our own constitution to the letter never mind this or that version of the Bible.
I am merely posting what the Iraqi constitution actually says that applies to women's rights and the protections of same.
Can the Iraqis corrupt their own constitution? Of course they can! If we can corrupt ours, then surely they can corrupt theirs.
Will they corrupt theirs? Let's wait and see.
ican, If you know anything about how women in Iraq are now living, it's already corrupted. Don't be so naive.
cicerone imposter wrote:ican, If you know anything about how women in Iraq are now living, it's already corrupted. Don't be so naive.
There are many reasons for the current mistreatment of women in Iraq now. The biggest reason is mistreatment of women or the threatened mistreatment of women by the
malignancy (i.e., those that mass murder civilians or serve as their accomplices).
My bet is that the mistreatment of women will decline rapidly with the adoption and rigorous enforcement of their constitution by the Iraqis.
Since the Iraqi constitution has not yet been adopted muchless applied, don't you think it's a bit premature to blame current mistreatment of Iraqi women on corruption of the application of their constitution?
I do!
Ican I'm fed up with your posts, and some of them are getting too short to scroll.
You voted for and support an administration which sent bombers to kill innocent civilians in a country which was doing yours no harm. And sought to justify that with a series of lies.
How MALIGNANT is that?
Yeah, but we're bringing democracy to the Middle East! Barf bag anyone?
Just read in this morning's newspaper that the insurgents killed 80 more Iraqis.
Hellava democracy, isn't it?
McTag wrote:Ican I'm fed up with your posts, and some of them are getting too short to scroll.
Hmmm! Try a glass of cranberry juice. It may help.
McTag wrote:You voted for and support an administration which sent bombers to kill innocent civilians in a country which was doing yours no harm. And sought to justify that with a series of lies.
How MALIGNANT is that?
Your repeated hypothesis is duly noted and duly expected. Perhaps you would like to support it with some evidence. Here's my repeated response based on evidence:
The Islamic Movement in Kurdistan is an Iraqi political party.
Some more radical members joined the al-Queda aligned Ansar al-Islam.
These two sentences were excerpted from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Movement_in_Kurdistan
Ansar al-Islam is an Islamist group, promoting a radical interpretation of Islam and holy war.
At the beginning of the 2003 invasion of Iraq it controlled about a dozen villages and a range of peaks in northern Iraq on the Iranian border.
It was formed in December 2001 as a merger of Jund al-Islam (Soldiers of Islam), led by Abu Abdallah al-Shafi'i, and a splinter group from the Islamic Movement in Kurdistan led by Mullah Krekar.
These three sentences were excerpted from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ansar_al-Islam
……………………………………………………………………
05/19/1996: Bin Laden leaves Sudan and returns to Afghanistan.
5 years, 3 months, 23 days later
09/11/2001: Osama’s al Qaeda perpetrates terrorist attack on USA.
The night of 9/11, the President broadcast to the nation that we will not distinguish between terrorists and those who harbor them.[/color]
1 month, 9 days later.
10/20/2001: USA invades Afghanistan.
Did the USA wait to long?
2 months later.
12/20/2001: Osama’s al Qaeda establishes training base in Iraq.
1 year, 3 months later.
03/20/2003: USA invades Iraq including al Qaeda’s expanded training bases in northern Iraq.
Should the USA have waited longer?
…………………………………………………………………………..
The deadly consequences to us all of failure to exterminate malignancy (i.e., those who mass murder civilians and those who are their accomplices) are too horrible to contemplate much less endure!
Ican you are a silly arse.
McTag wrote:Ican you are a silly arse.
Your fatuous hypothesis is duly noted and duly expected.
Try a full quart of cranberry juice.
It probably won't otherwise help, but I bet it will really pissyouoff!
hi ican you still going at it on that iraq business?
its over you lost remember?
