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US AND THEM: US, UN & Iraq, version 8.0

 
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Sep, 2005 11:07 am
Actually most Americans now think it was a mistake to invade Iraq but think now that we are in we are honor bound to see it through, till when is anybody's guess.

http://www.pollingreport.com/iraq.htm

Meanwhile:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050911/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq

Quote:
Many Insurgents Escape U.S.-Iraqi Sweep


Quote:
By JACOB SILBERBERG, Associated Press Writer
56 minutes ago



TAL AFAR, Iraq - Fighting eased Sunday, the second day of a U.S. and Iraqi sweep through the militant stronghold of Tal Afar near the Syrian border, as insurgents melted into the countryside, many escaping through a tunnel network dug under an ancient northern city.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Sep, 2005 01:52 pm
revel, Maybe this administration will come up with another justification that has nothing to do with the past justifications used thus far. Who knows? Some Americans still think bringing democracy to the Middle East is still a good idea. Most don't understand the history of the Middle East either, but that's only the small details.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Sep, 2005 04:05 pm
McTag wrote:
The USA by its recent actions has made its position as a champion of human rights somewhat weaker, some might say risible, wouldn't you agree?


What specifically are you referring to?

McTag wrote:
Secondly
Quote:
The night of 9/11, the President broadcast to the nation that we will not distinguish between terrorists and those who harbor them

so why hasn't he attacked Boston yet, which harbours supporters of the IRA?


Firstly, The IRA did not perpetrate any of the following:

Quote:
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
Terrorist Incidents
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents#1996

The 09/11/2001 attack on the USA by Osama's al Qaeda occurred 5 years, 3 months, 23 days after Osama bin Laden left Sudan.
SHOULD THE USA HAVE INVADED AFGHANISTAN SOONER?


1996

May 19: Bin Laden leaves Sudan – after escaping at least one assassination attempt -- significantly weakened despite his ambitious organization skills, and returns to Afghanistan where he establishes al Qaeda training bases.

June 25: Khobar Towers bombing, killing 19 and wounding 372 Americans.

1997
---

1998
August 7: U.S. embassy bombings in Dar es Salaam, Tanzania and Nairobi, Kenya, killing 225 people and injuring more than 4,000.

1999
---

2000
October 12: USS Cole bombing kills 17 US sailors.

2001
September 11: "9/11" The attacks on September 11 kill almost 3,000 in a series of hijacked airliner crashes into two U.S. landmarks: the World Trade Center in New York City, New York, and The Pentagon in Arlington, Virginia. A fourth plane crashes in Somerset County, Pennsylvania.

SHOULD THE USA HAVE WAITED LONGER BEFORE INVADING IRAQ?

October 12: Bali car bombing of holidaymakers kills 202 people, mostly Western tourists and local Balinese hospitality staff.
October 17: Zamboanga bombings in the Philippines kill six and wounds about 150.
October 18: A bus bomb in Manila kills three people and wounds 22.
October 19: A car bomb explodes outside a McDonald's Corp. restaurant in Moscow, killing one person and wounding five.
October 23: Moscow theater hostage crisis begins; 120 hostages and 40 terrorists killed in rescue three days later.

December 20: Osama helps establish al Qaeda training bases in Iraq.

2003
March 4: Bomb attack in an airport in Davao kills 21.

March 20: US invades Iraq at the time al Qaeda controls about a dozen villages and a range of peaks in northeastern Iraq on the Iranian border.

May 12: Bombings of United States expatriate housing compounds in Saudi Arabia kill 26 and injure 160 in the Riyadh Compound Bombings. Al-Qaeda blamed.
May 12: A truck bomb attack on a government building in the Chechen town of Znamenskoye kills 59.
May 14: As many as 16 die in a suicide bombing at a religious festival in southeastern Chechnya.
May 16: Casablanca Attacks by 12 bombers on five "Western and Jewish" targets in Casablanca, Morocco leaves 41 dead and over 100 injured. Attack attributed to a Moroccan al-Qaeda-linked group.
July 5: 15 people die and 40 are injured in bomb attacks at a rock festival in Moscow.
August 1: An explosion at the Russian hospital in Mozdok in North Ossetia kills at least 50 people and injures 76.
August 25: At least 48 people were killed and 150 injured in two blasts in south Mumbai - one near the Gateway of India at the other at the Zaveri Bazaar.
September 3: A bomb blast on a passenger train near Kislovodsk in southern Russia kills seven people and injures 90.
November 15 and November 20: Truck bombs go off at two synagogues, the British Consulate, and the HSBC Bank in Istanbul, Turkey, killing 57 and wounding 700.
December 5: Suicide bombers kill at least 46 people in an attack on a train in southern Russia
December 9: A blast in the center of Moscow kills six people and wounds at least 11.

2004
February 6: Bomb on Moscow Metro kills 41.
February 27: Superferry 14 is bombed in the Philippines by Abu Sayyaf, killing 116.
March 2: Attack on procession of Shia Muslims in Pakistan kills 43 and wounds 160.
March 11: Coordinated bombing of commuter trains in Madrid, Spain, kills 191 people and injures more than 1,500.
April 21: Basra bombs in Iraq kill 74 and injure hundreds.
April 21: Bombing of a security building in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia kills 5.
May 29: Al-Khobar massacres, in which Islamic militants kill 22 people at an oil compound in Saudi Arabia.
August 24: Bombing of Russian airplane kills 90.
August 31: A blast near a subway station entrance in northern Moscow, caused by a suicide bomber, kills 10 people and injures 33.
September 1 – 3: Beslan school hostage crisis in North Ossetia, Russia, results in 344 dead.
September 9: Jakarta embassy bombing, in which the Australian embassy in Jakarta, Indonesia was bombed, kills eight people.
October 7: Sinai bombings: Three car bombs explode in the Sinai Peninsula, killing at least 34 and wounding 171, many of them Israeli and other foreign tourists.
December 6: Suspected al Qaeda-linked group attacks U.S. consulate in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia, killing 5 local employees.
December 12: A bombing at the Christmas market in General Santos, Philippines, kills 15.

2005
February 14: A car bomb kills former Lebanese Prime Minister Rafiq Hariri and 20 others in Beirut.
March 9: An attack of an Istanbul restaurant killed one, and injured five. March 19: Car bomb attack on theatre in Doha, Qatar, kills one Briton and wounds 12 others.
April: April 2005 terrorist attacks in Cairo – On April 7 a suicide bomber blows himself up in Cairo's Khan al Khalili market, killing three foreign tourists and wounding 17 others.
May 7: Multiple bomb explosions across Myanmar's capital Rangoon kill 19 and injure 160.
June 12: Bombs explode in the Iranian cities of Ahvaz and Tehran, leaving 10 dead and 80 wounded days before the Iranian presidential election.
July 7: London bombings - Attacks on one double-decker bus and three London Underground trains, killing 56 people and injuring over 700, occur on the first day of the 31st G8 Conference. The attacks are believed by many to be the first suicide bombings in Western Europe.
July 23:Sharm el-Sheikh bombings: Car bombs explode at tourist sites in Sharm el-Sheikh, Egypt, killing at least 88 and wounding more than 100.
August 17: Around 100 home-made bombs exploded in 58 different locations in Bangladesh, Killing two and wounding 100.


Secondly, Boston's government has and is been active attempting to incarcerate or kill terrorists who are discovered in their midst to have been or are planning to mass murder civilians.


McTag wrote:
The invasion of Iraq was immoral, illegal and stupid, and the justifications which you attempt to parrot here are false.


Why, McTag, do you think so?
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Sep, 2005 04:28 pm
Distributed by American Committees on Foreign Relations, ACFR NewsGroup (description at: www.acfr.org ) No. 604, Monday, September 12, 2005; the author wrote:


Tim Wilcox
International Investigators, Inc.
3216 N. Pennsylvania Street
Indianapolis, Indiana USA
(317)925-1496
(317)926-1177 FAX
(317)418-3875 CELL
www.internationalinvestigators.com

This from a usually reliable source:

LEADERSHIP: Al Qaeda's Plan for World Conquest

September 1, 2005: Al Qaeda has a plan, and it's been published in a
book (Al-Zarqawi: al Qaeda's Second Generation) by Jordanian journalist,
Fouad Hussein. Several al Qaeda leaders were interviewed for the book,
including al Qaeda's man in Iraq, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi. The book is
only available in Arabic, but it does lay out a very straightforward
strategy for world conquest. Actually, it sounds a lot like what the nazis
and communists had in mind last century. The only difference is that,
while the nazis killed you for who you were, and the communists killed
you for what you believed, al Qaeda kills you for religious differences.
No matter which zealot gets you, you're still dead.

According to Fouad Hussein, al Qaeda has a seven phase plan for world conquest. It goes like this.

Phase 1, the "wakeup call." Spectacular terrorist attacks on the West
(like September 11, 2001) get the infidels (non-Moslems) to make war on
Islamic nations. This arouses Moslems, and causes them to flock to al
Qaedas banner. This phase is considered complete.

Phase 2, the "eye opening." This is the phase we are in, where al Qaeda
does battle with the infidels, and shows over a billion Moslems how
it's done. This phase is supposed to be completed by next year.

Phase 3, "the rising." Millions of aroused (in a terrorist sense)
Moslems go to war against Islam's enemies for the rest of the decade.
Especially heavy attacks are made against Israel. It is believed that
major
damage in Israel will force the world to acknowledge al Qaeda as a major
power, and negotiate with it.

Phase 4, "the downfall." By 2013, al Qaeda will control the Persian
Gulf, and all its oil, as well as most of the Middle East. This will
enable al Qaeda to cripple the American economy, and American military
power.

Phase 5, "the Caliphate." By 2016, the Caliphate (one government for
all Moslem nations) will be established. At this point, nearly all
Western cultural influences will be eliminated from Islamic nations. The
Caliphate will organize a mighty army for the next phase.

Phase 6, "world conquest." By 2022, the rest of the world will be
conquered by the righteous and unstoppable armies of Islam. This is the
phase that Osama bin Laden has been talking about for years.

Phase 7, "final victory." All the world's inhabitants will be forced to
either convert to Islam, or submit (as second class citizens) to
Islamic rule. This will be completed by 2025 or thereabouts.

Nothing really new in all this. Al Qaeda has been talking openly about this (the global Islamic state) for years. These Islamic terrorists are true believers. God is on their side, and they believe all obstacles will be swept aside by the power of the Lord.

Will al Qaeda's plan work?
Ask the nazis and communists.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Sep, 2005 04:37 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
revel, Maybe this administration will come up with another justification that has nothing to do with the past justifications used thus far. ...


Cicerone, no additional or new justification is necessary. This one has since 3/20/2003 been sufficient:
Relevant Dates:

05/19/1996: Bin Laden leaves Sudan and returns to Afghanistan.

5 years, 3 months, 23 days later
09/11/2001: Osama’s al Qaeda perpetrates terrorist attack on USA. The night of 9/11, the President broadcast to the nation that we will not distinguish between terrorists and those who harbor them.

1 month, 9 days later.
10/20/2001: USA invades Afghanistan. Did the USA wait to long?

2 months later.
12/20/2001: Osama’s al Qaeda establishes training base in Iraq.

1 year, 3 months later.
03/20/2003: USA invades Iraq including al Qaeda’s expanded training bases in northern Iraq. Should the USA have waited longer?


…………………………………………………………………………..

The deadly consequences to us all of failure to exterminate malignancy (i.e., those who mass murder civilians and those who are their accomplices) are too horrible to contemplate much less endure!
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Sep, 2005 07:00 pm
CI, I think I know what you mean. Civil war between the factions seems to be right on the horizon if not there already in Iraq. It was predicted it would happen and was dismissed by the very same people who predicted we would be treated as liberators and the Iraq oil would pay for the reconstruction.



http://news.yahoo.com/s/latimests/20050911/ts_latimes/revengekillingsfuelfearofescalationiniraq

Quote:
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Sun 11 Sep, 2005 08:35 pm
revel, Unfortunately, there are hundreds (if not thousands) of those single incidences in Iraq that this administration fails to understand. A democracy based on Islam is not really "democracy." Women will not have any rights. But, what they hay, it's the ME.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Sep, 2005 07:13 am
CI, democracy means ruling by majority of votes, a majority of women in Iraq want Islam to be the guiding influence of their constitution.

http://www.sptimes.com/2005/04/17/Worldandnation/Women_s_rights_a_divi.shtml

Quote:
BAGHDAD - Almost a third of the members of Iraq's new parliament are women, one of the highest proportions in the world, but that doesn't mean full-blown, Western-style rights are at hand. Many of the women are conservatives who want Islamic law to enforce the veil and all that goes with it.

Representation for women was a U.S. priority in building a new Iraq, but typical of those elected in the historic Jan. 30 vote is Salamah al-Khafaji, who covers herself from head to toe in black robes and doesn't shake hands with men.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Sep, 2005 09:19 am
revel, It's not surprising that the majority of Iraqi women want Islam as their guiding principle. As an outside observer, I find it ironic and sad that they would impose restrictions on their own freedoms. Depending on the degree of radicallism of Islam, many still practice killing their own sisters and other women for what they interpret as breaking.Islamic law. Many women are also not allowed to get an education in Arab countries. It's really sad.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Sep, 2005 01:07 pm
The feasibility of using photovoltaic (PV) solar power to assist in rebuilding the Iraqi electrical infrastructure is examined in a recent study prepared at the Naval Postgraduate School.

"Iraqi citizens have been forced to live with programmed electrical blackouts because of an insufficient power grid for many years, but solar PV systems could help minimize or eliminate this problem."

While costs are substantial, the authors argue that solar photovoltaics offer significant compensating advantages.

See "Operation Solar Eagle: A Study Examining Photovoltaic Solar Power as an Alternative for the Rebuilding of the Iraqi Electrical Power Generation Infrastructure" by Curtis Austin, Ralph Borja, and Jeffery Phillips, Naval Postgraduate School, June 2005 (187 pages, 2.5 MB PDF file) DOWNLOAD LINK
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Sep, 2005 01:42 pm
revel and c.i.,

On the subject of Iraqi women: some international women's rights organizations actually offered workshops on democratic constitution writing to the female members of the national assembly.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Sep, 2005 04:58 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
revel, Unfortunately, there are hundreds (if not thousands) of those single incidences in Iraq that this administration fails to understand. A democracy based on Islam is not really "democracy." Women will not have any rights. But, what they hay, it's the ME.


BUNK! The Constitution to be submitted to Iraqi voters next month says otherwise. For example see Articles 13 through 16, and Article 151.

Walter provided this link a while ago.
Walter Hinteler wrote:
Iraqi Draft Constitution in Full, translated from the Arabic by The Associated Press, via the BBC.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Sep, 2005 04:59 pm
These are the facts:

05/19/1996: Bin Laden leaves Sudan and returns to Afghanistan.

5 years, 3 months, 23 days later
09/11/2001: Osama’s al Qaeda perpetrates terrorist attack on USA. The night of 9/11, the President broadcast to the nation that we will not distinguish between terrorists and those who harbor them.[/color]

1 month, 9 days later.
10/20/2001: USA invades Afghanistan.
Did the USA wait to long?

2 months later.
12/20/2001: Osama’s al Qaeda establishes training base in Iraq.

1 year, 3 months later.
03/20/2003: USA invades Iraq including al Qaeda’s expanded training bases in northern Iraq.
Should the USA have waited longer?
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 12 Sep, 2005 05:17 pm
wandel wrote: "On the subject of Iraqi women: some international women's rights organizations actually offered workshops on democratic constitution writing to the female members of the national assembly. "

Didn't know that. Thanks for the info. I wonder how successful they will be in influencing what they want in the constitution.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Sep, 2005 05:41 am
It slices and it dices!
Step right up! Step right up!
Made in Sheffield!
Made in America!
Do you love Peace? Of course you do! Step right up!
Cut a little Asian man down to size in TWO SECONDS FLAT!
That's right! That's right! Step right up folks!
Got a darkie neighbor darkening your door?
I got just the thing for you right here!
You been waking up scared, haven't you?
Of course you have!
You're tired of it aren't you?
Of course you are!
Step right up! Step right up!

Quote:
British and American arms companies have been criticised for marketing weapons used in Iraq at Europe's biggest arms fair.

Campaigners against the arms trade have criticised the Government for inviting countries with dubious human rights records, such as Indonesia and Colombia, to the fair. The campaigners also accused companies such as Lockheed and BAE Systems of "revelling" in the opportunity to sell equipment "battle-tested" in Iraq to those countries.
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/this_britain/article312204.ece
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Sep, 2005 06:55 am
Revel, I posted this < KLIK ME > Hope it helps.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Sep, 2005 07:15 am
Thanks Gel. The article was helpful and interesting. From what I can understand the article to say is that the differences is more tradition and local than what is actually said in the Koran? Probably like Christianity is divided up by different beliefs and customs. I just wonder though how if there are different interpretations of Islam, how are they going to decide to base their constitution on Islam?

Ican, Article TWo says:

Article (2): 1st - Islam is the official religion of the state and is a basic source of legislation: (a) No law can be passed that contradicts the undisputed rules of Islam. (b) No law can be passed that contradicts the principles of democracy. (c) No law can be passed that contradicts the rights and basic freedoms outlined in this constitution. 2nd - This constitution guarantees the Islamic identity of the majority of the Iraqi people and the full religious rights for all individuals and the freedom of creed and religious practices.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Sep, 2005 07:16 am
Thanks Gel. The article was helpful and interesting. From what I can understand the article to say is that the differences is more tradition and local than what is actually said in the Koran? Probably like Christianity is divided up by different beliefs and customs. I just wonder though how if there are different interpretations of Islam, how are they going to decide to base their constitution on Islam?

Ican, Article TWo says:

Quote:
Article (2): 1st - Islam is the official religion of the state and is a basic source of legislation: (a) No law can be passed that contradicts the undisputed rules of Islam. (b) No law can be passed that contradicts the principles of democracy. (c) No law can be passed that contradicts the rights and basic freedoms outlined in this constitution. 2nd - This constitution guarantees the Islamic identity of the majority of the Iraqi people and the full religious rights for all individuals and the freedom of creed and religious practices.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Sep, 2005 08:51 am
revel,

One solution to handling differences concerning Islamic law would be to give jurisdiction to individual provinces on matters of family law. The Kurdish provinces, for example, would handle family law in a very secular manner.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 13 Sep, 2005 09:20 am
Article (2): 1st - Islam is the official religion of the state and is a basic source of legislation: (a) No law can be passed that contradicts the undisputed rules of Islam. (b) No law can be passed that contradicts the principles of democracy. (c) No law can be passed that contradicts the rights and basic freedoms outlined in this constitution. 2nd - This constitution guarantees the Islamic identity of the majority of the Iraqi people and the full religious rights for all individuals and the freedom of creed and religious practices.

Doesn't Islamic law prohibit the ownership of property by women?
0 Replies
 
 

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