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New topic of discussion: how do you feel about Iraq becoming a Sharia-run Islaamic state, Ican?
I think that if that happens, the mass murder of civilians will continue in Iraq. The perpetrators may turn out to be different, but their doctrines will be the same. I would find it intolerable, if the net consequence of US efforts, is a governance of Iraq that abandons pursuit of the doctrine of Live And Let Live to once again pursue the doctrine of Die And Make Die.
It isn't as if we can't tell them that they cannot choose their own gov't, right? But on the other hand, are we creating an Iraq-Iran alliance? That would be a big mistake.
I think it long past time our government demonstrates it has the necessary gonads and capability to compel Iraq to pursue the doctrine of Live And Let Live . We did not invade Iraq to merely substitute one set of tyrants for another. We invaded Iraq to change Iraq behavior. We wanted to change Iraq behavior to a behavior necessary for us and every one else to enjoy" life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" free of malignancy.
Sitting by and allowing Iraq to adopt another tyrannical government is no more acceptable than "cutting and running."
Cycloptichorn
Bush v. Rumsfeld
From the August 15 / August 22, 2005 issue: The president knows we have to win the war in Iraq . . . Rumsfeld doesn't.
by William Kristol
08/15/2005, Volume 010, Issue 45
LAST WEEK IN THESE PAGES we called attention to the John-Kerry-like attempt of some Bush advisers, led by Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, to abandon the term "war on terror." These advisers had been, as the New York Times reported, going out of their way to avoid "formulations using the word 'war.'" The great effort that we had all simplemindedly been calling a war was now dubbed by Rumsfeld the "global struggle against violent extremism." And the solution to this struggle was, according to Richard Myers, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, speaking here as Rumsfeld's cat's-paw, "more diplomatic, more economic, more political than it is military."
Now, it is of course true enough that the "war on terror" isn't simply a military struggle. What war is? There is a critical political dimension to the war on terror--which the president, above all, has understood.That's why he has placed such emphasis on promoting liberal democracy. But there is also, to say the least, a critical military dimension to this struggle. And President Bush sensed that this Rumsfeldian change in nomenclature was an attempt to duck responsibility for that critical military dimension.
The president would have none of it. This past Monday, announcing John Bolton's recess appointment as U.N. ambassador, the president went out of his way to say that "this post is too important to leave vacant any longer, especially during a war." That same day, at a high-level White House meeting, President Bush reportedly commented, with some asperity, that no one had checked with him as to whether he wanted to move beyond the phrase "war on terror." As far as he was concerned, he reminded his staff, we are fighting a war. On Wednesday, speaking in Texas, the president used the word "war" 15 times, and the phrase "war on terror" five. "Make no mistake about it," the president exclaimed, "we are at war. We're at war with an enemy that attacked us on September the 11th, 2001. We're at war against an enemy that, since that day, has continued to kill." And on Thursday, in case his advisers hadn't been paying attention, the president said it one more time: "We're at war."
So we are. And Iraq is, as the president said Wednesday, "the latest battlefield in the war on terror." It is also the central battlefield in that war. And so, the president added, "I hear all the time, 'Well, when are you bringing the troops home?' And my answer to you: 'As soon as possible, but not before the mission is complete.'" As the president said Thursday, "We will stay the course. We will complete the job in Iraq."
Or will we? The president seems determined to complete the job. Is his defense secretary? In addition to trying to abandon the term "war on terror," Rumsfeld and some of his subordinates have spent an awful lot of time in recent weeks talking about withdrawing troops from Iraq--and before the job is complete.
Until a few months ago, Bush administration officials refused to speculate on a timetable for withdrawal from Iraq. They criticized those who did talk about withdrawing, arguing that such talk would encourage the terrorists, discourage our friends, and make it harder to win over waverers who wanted to be assured that we would be there to help. The administration's line was simply that we were going to stay the course in Iraq, do what it takes, and win.
The president still tends to say this. But not Defense Department civilian officials, who have recently been willing to indicate a desire to get out, and sooner rather than later. After all, Rumsfeld has said, insurgencies allegedly take a decade or so to defeat. What's more, our presence gives those darned Iraqi allies of ours excuses not to step up to the plate. So let's get a government elected under the new Iraqi constitution, and accelerate our plans to get the troops home. As Rumsfeld said Thursday, "once Iraq is safely in the hands of the Iraqi people and a government that they elect under a new constitution that they are now fashioning, and which should be completed by August 15, our troops will be able to, as the capability of the Iraqi security forces evolve, pass over responsibility to them and then come home." The key "metric" is finding enough Iraqis to whom we can turn over the responsibility for fighting--not defeating the terrorists.
As Newsweek reported last week: "Now the conditions for U.S. withdrawal no longer include a defeated insurgency, Pentagon sources say. The new administration mantra is that the insurgency can be beaten only politically, by the success of Iraq's new government. Indeed, Washington is now less concerned about the insurgents than the unwillingness of Iraq's politicians to make compromises for the sake of national unity. Pentagon planners want to send a spine-stiffening message: the Americans won't be there forever."
But not-so-well-hidden under the pseudo-tough talk of "spine-stiffening" is the inescapable whiff of weakness and defeatism. Rumsfeld either doesn't believe we can win, or doesn't think we can maintain political support for staying, or doesn't believe winning is worth the cost. So we're getting out, under cover of talking about how "political progress is necessary to defeat the insurgency."
It's of course true that political progress in Iraq is important. And the political progress is heartening. But political progress is not sufficient to defeat the insurgency. There has been no more impressive example of political progress than the January 30 elections. But the insurgency continues.
Furthermore, how likely is political progress if everyone in Iraq decides we're on our way out? The talk from the Defense Department about withdrawing troops from Iraq is doing damage to our chances of political and military progress. The more we talk about getting out, the more our enemies are emboldened, our friends waver and hedge their bets, and various factions decide they may have to fend for themselves and refuse to commit to a new Iraqi army or government.
The fact is that political progress needs to be accompanied by an effective military counterinsurgency. And no matter how good a job we are now doing in training Iraqi troops, it is inconceivable that they will be ready to take over the bulk of the counterinsurgency efforts in the very near future. Further, if an Iraqi troop buildup is accompanied by an American force drawdown--as unfortunately even the president suggested Thursday ("As Iraq stands up, our coalition will stand down")--then we will be able at best to maintain an unacceptable status quo. More likely, since Iraqi troops won't be as capable as American ones, the situation will deteriorate. Then the insurgency could become a full-fledged guerrilla war, inviting a civil war--and we would be faced with a choice between complete and ignominious withdrawal or a recommitment of troops.
The only responsible course is to plan on present troop levels for the foreseeable future and to build up Iraqi troops, so as to have enough total forces to win--to provide security, take the fight to the enemy, reduce infiltration on the borders, and so forth. What the president needs to do now is tell the Pentagon to stop talking about (and planning for) withdrawal, and make sure they are planning for victory.
The president knows we have to win this war. If some of his subordinates are trying to find ways to escape from it, he needs to assert control over them, overrule them, or replace them. Having corrected the silly effort by some of his advisers to say the war on terror is not fundamentally a war, he now has to deal with the more serious effort, emanating primarily from the civilian leadership in the Pentagon, to find an excuse not to pursue victory in Iraq. For if Iraq is the central front in the war on terror, we need to win there. And to win, the president needs a defense secretary who is willing to fight, and able to win.
Please! When you say 'neccessary gonads' what do you mean? Willingness to kill more people? It seems that is the only interpretation. Cycloptichorn
I agree, and would like to discuss it; but I would really like to know what you mean by 'neccessary gonads.'
The phrase necessary gonads is my label for necessary gender independent courage.
Gender independent courage to do what, you may ask (again).
I.
Al Qaeda and all other persons who mass murder civilians, or are accomplices of persons who mass murder civilians, are an extreme danger to the security of humanity in general, and to the security of Iraqis and Americans in particular. For this reason all such persons, whom I call malignancy, must be exterminated. Thus, it was necessary to invade Iraq in order to exterminate malignancy from Iraq, just as it was necessary to invade Afghanistan in order to exterminate malignancy from Afghanistan.
While we have so far failed to exterminate malignancyin both Iraq and Afghanistan, we must nonetheless persevere until we learn how and do exterminate it. The deadly consequences to us all of failure to do so are intolerable!
II.
The US government must require that the new Iraq Constitution institutionalize the doctrine of Live And Let Live.
You asked me to respond by discussing how our gov't can 'get' the neccessary gonands, but without a defintion of what you mean by that, I cannot do so.
I hope my explanation above is adequate.
Also, the president is wrong; we don't 'have' to win this war any more than we 'had' to win Vietnam. This isn't a black-and-white situation.
We disagree!
We must enable Iraqis to secure a government that institutionalizes the doctrine of Live And Let Live in their interest, in our interest, and in humanity's interest.
The doctrines of Live And Let Live and Die And Make Die are mutually exclusive. Followers of one cannot co-exist with the followers of the other. They are mutually antagonistic. Speaking as one attempting to live by Live And Let Live, I and/or those I love cannot survive to live by that doctrine if those attempting to live by the doctrine Die And Make Die (i.e., malignancy) prevail. In order for me and those I love to follow our doctrine we must exterminate malignancy.
Any person who truly converts from attempting to follow the doctrine Die And Make Die to attempting to follow the doctrine Live And Let Live thereby ceases to be malignancy.
Cycloptichorn
Interesting article by Kristol thanks ican
I remember Saddams minister for information on the roof of the Palestine hotel as american tanks were only 2kms away predicting Iraq would be as Vietnam.
Oh, I understand what you think the neccessary goals are - how couldn't I, you've repeated it numerous times - but exactly
how do you recommend we go about achieving the goal of exterminating the enemy?
How do we enable the Iraqi gov't to adopt your ideals?
How do we hunt down and kill terrorists more effectively?
Specifics, please.
Cycloptichorn
Cycloptichorn wrote:Oh, I understand what you think the neccessary goals are - how couldn't I, you've repeated it numerous times - but exactly
how do you recommend we go about achieving the goal of exterminating the enemy?
How do we enable the Iraqi gov't to adopt your ideals?
How do we hunt down and kill terrorists more effectively?
Specifics, please.
Cycloptichorn
My answer to your first and third questions is the same.
Announce and implement the following tactics:
1. All the current and all the future malignancy incarcerated by us will be incinerated, if malignancy fails to cease murdering Iraqi civilians.
How do you tell the insurgents and terrorists from the innocents? They look exactly alike. They live together. There have undoubtedly been thousands of innocent Iraqis rounded up by the US because we thought they might be terrorists or insurgents; you just advocate killing everyone outright?
Are we going to execute people by immolation, without trial at all? Because trials are expensive and take time and money, plus you have to keep the people incarcerated in the meantime. You seek to do away with that, I guess.
Correct me if I am wrong, but step one of your solution seems to be this: we start rounding up and killing lots of people, whether they are actually guilty or not; for there is no way to determine whether they are guilty without incarceration and trial. And you don't believe this will cause more anti-American sentiment at all? Seriously?
2. Specifically, all our current and future malignancy prisoners will be incinerated at a rate 10 times the rate malignancy murders Iraqi civilians.
I'm not sure how you will calculate these numbers. Or tell if people are guilty or not. No trials, remember. So you will end up murdering many, many civilians yourself. This skews the numbers even farther; for won't we be part of the malignancy at that point?
3. Specifically, all malignancy entrapped by frequent tactical sweeps by our military within Iraq shall be killed or incarcerated.
Including the innocents who are rounded up with them. Which you know happens during every sweep, for the reasons I said above. And I thought you were against incarceration and thought that it was a major problem? We already do the incarceration part, anyways, so it seems your only new solution is to start killing a lot more people.
4. Specifically, all persons observed by our military in neighboring countries within 15 miles of Iraq borders shall be killed or incarcerated.
Now there's an incredible answer. Exactly how do you expect us to go about defending this area? What about the people who live there, do they get to stay? We can't even defend the airport road in Baghdad, let alone thousands of miles of borders! I think your cabin is depressurizing a little, man.
My answer to your second question is:
1. Publicly inform those currently writing the Iraq Constitution that the US requires that they shall write a constitution that institutionalizes the doctrine of Live And Let Live.
2. Publically inform them that failure to write and submit to a public vote such a constitution by a specified deadline will result in the US henceforth controlling distribution of Iraq oil revenues to the Iraqi people, and the US establishing three separate autonomous provinces -- North for the Kurds, Central for the Sunni, and South for the Shia.
This is possibly the worst suggestion you have ever made; it would undoubtedly unite the entire population of Iraq against their Imperialist Occupiers, for that is what we would be. And we would have to remain in Iraq to make sure that they stayed that way, so we would be staying in perpetuity.
I mean, get serious! This is the most unrealistic set of answers to the questions I could have imagined. Why don't you just say 'we'll turn the place into glass and be done with the whole mess?'
What do you recommend be done instead? Specifics, please!
Partial Text of the Iraqi Constitution
Tuesday August 23, 2005
By The Associated Press
PREAMBLE
We the people of Iraq, newly arisen from our disasters and looking with confidence to the future through a democratic, federal, republican system, are detemined - men and women, old and young - to respect the rule of law, reject the policy of aggression, pay attention to women and their rights, the elderly and their cares, the children and their affairs, spread the culture of diversity and defuse terrorism.
We are the people of Iraq, who in all our forms and groupings undertake to establish our union freely and by choice, to learn yesterday's lessons for tomorrow, and to write down this permanent constitution from the high values and ideals of the heavenly messages and the developments of science and human civilization, and to adhere to this constitution, which shall preserve for Iraq its free union of people, land and sovereignty.
....
CHAPTER ONE: Basic Principles
Article (1): The Republic of Iraq is an independent, sovereign nation, and the system of rule in it is a democratic, federal, representative (parliamentary) republic.
Article (2): First, Islam is the official religion of the state and is a basic source of legislation:
a) No law can be passed that contradicts the undisputed rules of Islam.
b) No law can be passed that contradicts the principles of democracy.
c) No law can be passed that contradicts the rights and basic freedoms outlined in this constitution.
Second, this constitution guarantees the Islamic identity of the majority of the Iraqi people, and the full religious rights for all individuals, and the freedom of creed and religious practices.
Oh, I understand what you think the neccessary goals are - how couldn't I, you've repeated it numerous times - but exactly
how do you recommend we go about achieving the goal of exterminating the enemy?
How do we enable the Iraqi gov't to adopt your ideals?
How do we hunt down and kill terrorists more effectively?
Specifics, please.
Cycloptichorn
so ican, since we are currently losing the war against the malignancy, how long/how many more deaths do you think we should endure?
[H]ow long/how many more deaths do you think we should endure?
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Associated Press
Update 7: Oil Prices Rise As Market Eyes Iraq Outages
08.22.2005, 12:44 PM
Oil prices rose Monday as traders weighed the effects of sabotage that disrupted Iraq's southern pipeline exports against partially resumed crude production in Ecuador.
Analysts cautioned against putting too much emphasis on the Iraqi outages, saying it was too early to say how long the shortfalls in output would last. By midday, an official of Iraq's South Oil Co. said exports had resumed on a limited basis, while other officials said waiting tankers were being serviced by pumps on auxillary power at a rate much reduced from normal.
Light sweet crude for September delivery rose 65 cents to $66 a barrel in afternoon trade on the New York Mercantile Exchange. The September contract, which expires later Monday, rose $2.08 a barrel on Friday after U.S. warships were fired upon in Jordan and production in Ecuador shut down.
Front-month crude futures contracts reached an all-time high of $67.10 on Aug. 12.
Gasoline on the Nymex rose a quarter cent to $1.9062 a gallon. Heating oil rose more than a penny to $1.8360, indicating attention is shifting from gasoline near the end of the summer driving season in North America to heating oil for winter use.
October Brent crude rose 40 cents to $64.76 a barrel in London after server problems forced a trading halt for several hours.
Iraqi and foreign oil officials said Iraq's oil exports were shut down Monday by a power cut that darkened parts of central and southern Iraq, including the country's only functioning oil export terminals.
Exports through the country's other main route, the northern export pipeline to Turkey, have long been halted by incessant sabotage.
Iraqi officials said sabotage was also responsible for Monday's blackout, which prevented oil from being pumped into tankers waiting at berths.
Iraqi pipelines are a frequent target for insurgents, as a large quantity of the oil heads for Western nations and disrupting the flow of crude is seen as a way to destabilize the U.S.-supported government.
But chief analyst Ehsan Ul-Haq of PVM Oil Associates in Vienna said the Iraqi supply disruption was not yet a major market factor because "it's still not quite clear whether (Iraqi) exports will be affected for a long time."
Some stability came from South America, where Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez said his country will loan oil to Ecuador until its domestic production stabilizes, easing concerns that the Andean nation's export commitments to the United States might not be met.
"Chavez's move was quite good news for the market," said chief commodities strategist Tetsu Emori at Mitsui Bussan Futures in Tokyo, Japan. "It came as something of a surprise to most because Chavez has always been bullish. But it's a welcome move."
Violent protests erupted in Ecuador last Tuesday, bringing oil production to a standstill. Production partially resumed Saturday when demonstrators and the government declared a truce.
Ecuador's state-run oil company Petroecuador on Saturday restored 33,167 barrels of crude output in the northeast Amazon, but that was still about 168,000 barrels short of normal daily capacity.
Such an amount does not hurt actual supply, but the thin layer of spare capacity has markets on edge for any unexpected outage that could derail deliveries in a time of high demand.
Ecuador said production would not return to normal until October at the earliest.
Associated Press Writer Gillian Wong in Singapore contributed to this report.
SENSE OF ASIA
World war on terror: Why U.S. must stay the course
By Sol Sanders
SPECIAL TO WORLD TRIBUNE.COM
August 18, 2005
It was always predictable it would be difficult to keep the civilized world’s nose to the grindstone in what President Bush warned would be a long struggle against terrorism. That is despite the demonstration in Madrid and London and Istanbul the terrorists have a worldwide target and are not limited to the U.S. and its overseas interests.
America’s difficulties in establishing a stable Iraq have made it easier to drag out the old bromides – from “your terrorist is my liberationist” to “searching for fundamental causes”. Old political ties and prejudices lead to excuses of why “militants” [as the BBC insists on calling them] violate the laws of human decency. And grievances are sought as rationalization for their motives despite all the evidence the leadership and much of the following of the barbarism is pathological, the product of privileged, deranged individuals, rather than social protest.
So after successful collaboration between Dublin and London to end terrorism in Northern Ireland, overcoming centuries of antagonism, now the Irish are wilting. They refuse to acknowledge the right of Colombia to incarcerate three Irish Republic Army “tourists” among drugtrafficking terrorists and malinger on their return to South America.
Djakarta has just reduced the sentences of convicted murderers of more than 200, mainly young Australian tourists, in the 2002 Bali bar bombing. Clearly the government is pandering to a portion of the Indonesian electorate manipulated by radical Islamicists.
The EU refuses to recognize the terrorist credentials of Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and Hizbullah, obviously because their murderous activities are [for now] directed only toward the Israelis. So the unilateral Israeli withdrawal from Gaza could find the Europeans funding terrorists holed up in a Gaza sanctuary presented as humanitarianism for the Palestinians.
New Delhi ignores the South Indian logistics’ tail of the Sri Lankan Tamil separatists [whose origins it in fact once encouraged] because of its support among India’s own 63 million Tamils in its most populous state. The Sri Lankan foreign minister, an ethnic Tamil insisting on unity of the country, is murdered by those same terrorists while Norwegian do-gooders [over their depth as they were in Israel-Palestine] excuse the inventors of modern suicide bombing.
Bangkok and Kuala Lumpur deny the international connections of an Islamicists’ revolt in Thailand’s southern provinces which targets teachers and police in a classic murder campaign. That is an excuse to avoid the kind of international collaboration necessary to clip the wings of the international conspiracies.
Indonesia and Malaysia have refused U.S. offers of personnel and training for armed patrols in the Straits of Malacca, through which more than half of the world’s oil flows, despite repeated pirate attacks. Now, after months of negotiating, there are to be joint patrols [with Singapore] but probably not with adequate resources to prevent this essential world artery from being blocked by terrorists.
ABC telecasts an interview bought from a third party with the acknowledged leader of the Chechen terrorists, including the slaughter of children in a village school last year, further inhibiting cooperation between Washington and Moscow. The Arab networks continue to give sympathetic coverage to the murder of innocents in Iraq presented as a free press.
Washington refuses to return to Beijing several Uighurs captured fighting with the Taliban in Afghanistan, acknowledgment of the struggle of the indigenous people in Singkiang to resist the colonial oppression of the Han Chinese. But Uighurs have been associated with bombings in eastern Chinese cities as well as in their Central Asian homeland.
Foreign terrorists and their funds flow through Syria to the insurgency in Iraq but the U.S. temporizes because of occasional cooperation from Damascus intelligence, and the influence of Arab neighbors pleading its cause. Washington balances the problem of Iranian support of infiltration against the ties Iraqi Shias may invoke to get concessions from their coreligionists in Tehran.
Ankara is unhappy Washington is unwilling to expend forces to wipe out the remnants of the PKK anti-Turkish insurgency holed up in northern Iraq. But then the Turks romance Syria just as America’s relations with Damascus reach a new nadir, and their refusal to permit U.S. forces moving into northern Iraq from Turkish bases still rankles.
All of this against an increasingly clear historical picture the U.S. invited a continuing escalation of terrorism through excusing or failing to respond to escalating attacks over more than a decade. And finally when evidence came into American officials’ hands a domestic attack was contemplated, bureaucratic inertia and red tape ignored it.
All of this forms a backdrop for the continuing bloody saga in Iraq. There the Islamicists and Bathists terrorists are attempting to defeat Washington’s attempt to build representative government, a multicultural, multiethnic, stable, progressive entity in the middle of the Moslem world. It would be hard to exaggerate the impact of a defeat there if the American commitment wavers in the face of growing U.S. domestic criticism and doubts about sacrifices in a complicated struggle, no easier to evaluate than most warfare at any given moment.