McGentrix wrote:I wondered how long it would take before revisionists longed for "the good old days"...
You prefer "these days" McG?
Not exactly the dog days of summer for the poor troops over there.
I think the point is that fewer Americans and fewer Iraqis were dying and living in fear like they are today. It wasn't ideal, but it was stable. Now everyone is at risk on a daily basis and they have no water, electricity, money, infrastructure or security.
I'm not attempting to change you mind because I know that you think Iraq has become the Las Vegas of the middle east since Saddam was toppled.
You may hypothesizing a future stable Iraqi nation if and only if the pipe dreams of the Bush administration ever magically manifest themselves.
It'll be interesting to see how these past 2 years are revised by the right, historically speaking.
That sounds like something some people would have said during the American revolutionary war Cyclo... I am sure the years before the war were much better than the years during the war, but the results were well worth it I think. Just as the results in Iraq will be, I hope.
McGentrix wrote:...I hope.
You G, sounds like you've lost that firm footing of unwavering confidence in the shrub.
Just playin McG.
I too have high hopes for the future of the middle east.
Even the Shrub is no longer as confident about his misdeeds in Iraq.
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:I read that article McTag
The situation in Iraq is intolerable. Every other day a car bomb kills 20 30 60.
I dont think Blair or Bush has a clue what to do.
Do you? Do you have a clue about what to do? I think not! Are you going to give that now stupidly trite response: It's not my
job to have a clue what to do?
It's not your
job to criticize either. However, you do that regularly free of charge. Absent an alternative to compare against, criticism is worthless. Yours is no exception.
Yes:
Bush and Blair have blundered in expecting the removal of Saddam would make the solution of all the other Iraq problems simpler.
Yes:
Bush and Blair cannot yet stop about 30 Iraqi civilians being murdered daily by the
malignancy. That number is about the same as it was when Saddam was running Iraq.
I propose Bush and Blair change their tactics. Stop trying to expel, incarcerate, or kill some
malignancy. Stop trying to negotiate with some
malignancy. Start exterminating
malignancy -- all
malignancy (incineration would be an effective method) -- before
malignancy succeeds in achieving their repeatedly declared objective of exterminating us. That might also reduce the effectiveness of their recruiting efforts, don't you think?
Even the Irish who are known for their jokes and good beer can write meaninngful articles for our times.
August 17, 2005
Left Behind
By THOMAS LYNCH
Moveen, Ireland
LIKE President Bush, I enjoy clearing brush in August. We both like quittance of the suit and tie, freedom from duty and detail and to breathe deeply the insouciant air of summer.
He makes for his ranch in Crawford, Tex., a town with no bars and five churches. I come to my holdings near Carrigaholt, here in County Clare, where there are six bars and one church and the house my great-grandfather left more than a century ago for a better life in America.
Of course, we have our differences - the president and I. He flies on Air Force One with an entourage. I fly steerage with hopes for an aisle seat. His ranch runs to 1,600 acres. My cottage sits on something less than two. He fishes for bass stocked in his private lake. I fish for mackerel in the North Atlantic. He keeps cattle and horses. I have a pair of piebald asses - Charles and Camilla I call them, after the sweethearts on the neighboring island.
I suppose we're just trying to reconnect with our roots and home places - Mr. Bush and I. He identifies as a Texan in the John Wayne sense as I do with the Irish in the Barry Fitzgerald sense. And we're both in our 50's, white, male, Christian and American with all the perks. We both went into our fathers' businesses: he does leadership of the free world; I do mostly local funerals. Neither of us went to Vietnam, and we both quit drink for all of the usual reasons. I imagine we both pray for our children to outlive us and that we have the usual performance anxieties.
The president works out a couple of hours a day. I go for long walks by the sea. We occupy that fraction of a fraction of the planet's inhabitants for whom keeping body and soul together - shelter, safety, food and drink - is not the immediate, everyday concern. We count ourselves among the blessed and elect who struggle with the troubles of surfeit rather than shortfall.
So why do I sense we are from different planets?
"The same but different" my late and ancient cousin Nora Lynch used to say, confronted by such mysteries and verities.
Out of Ireland have we come.
Great hatred, little room,
Maimed us at the start.
I carry from my mother's womb
A fanatic heart.
It was in August 1931 when W. B. Yeats wrote "Remorse for Intemperate Speech," which includes this remarkable stanza. Yeats had witnessed the birthing of a new Irish nation through insurgency and civil war. He had served as a Free State senator, and, after winning the Nobel Prize in Literature, was the country's public man of letters. An Anglo-Irishman who had ditched high-church Christianity in favor of swamis and Theosophists and his wife's dabblings in the occult, he was torn between the right-wing politics of between-wars Europe and the romantic, mythic past of Ireland.
His poem confesses and laments that reason and breeding, imagination and good intentions are nonetheless trumped by the contagion of hatred and by the human propensity toward extreme and unquestioning enthusiasm for a cause - whatever cause. It is what links enemies, what makes terrorists "martyrs" and "patriots" among their own - the fanatic heart beating in the breast of every true believer.
Yeats' remorse was real, and well it should have been. The century he wrote this poem in became the bloodiest in the history of our species. Wars and ethnic cleansings, holocausts and atom bombings - each an exercise in the god-awful formula by which the smaller the world becomes, by technologies of travel and communications, the more amplified our hatreds and the more lethal our weaponries become. Great hatred, little room, indeed.
So far this century proceeds apace: famines and genocides, invasions, occupations and suicide bombers. Humankind goes on burning the bridges in front and behind us without apology, our own worst enemies, God help us all.
And maybe this is the part I find most distancing about my president, not his fanatic heart - the unassailable sense he projects that God is on his side - we all have that. But that he seems to lack anything like real remorse, here in the third August of Iraq, in the fourth August of Afghanistan, in the fifth August of his presidency - for all of the intemperate speech, for the weapons of mass destruction that were not there, the "Mission Accomplished" that really wasn't, for the funerals he will not attend, the mothers of the dead he will not speak to, the bodies of the dead we are not allowed to see and all of the soldiers and civilians whose lives have been irretrievably lost or irreparably changed by his (and our) "Bring it On" bravado in a world made more perilous by such pronouncements.
Surely we must all bear our share of guilt and deep regret, some sadness at the idea that here we are, another August into our existence, and whether we arrived by way of evolution or intelligent design or the hand of God working over the void, no history can record that we've progressed beyond our hateful, warring and fanatical ways.
We may be irreversibly committed to play out the saga of Iraq. But each of us, we humans, if we are to look our own kind in the eye, should at least be willing to say we're sorry, that all over our smaller and more lethal planet, whatever the causes, we're still killing our own kind - the same but different - but our own kind nonetheless. Even on vacation we oughtn't hide from that.
Thomas Lynch, a funeral director, is the author of"The Undertaking" and "Booking Passage: We Irish and Americans."
* Copyright 2005 The New York Times Company
Yes,it is sad, disgusting, horrible that we have among us a cluster of anatomically equivalents to human beings who are sworn to exterminate those of us who reject their perceptions of what life is all about. They proclaim: exterminate those who choose not to follow their interpretations of what the God of our universe wants from humanity. Such would-be exterminators must be exterminated for the same obvious reasons that we exterminated a good many of their predecessors -- the Nazis, Shintoists, Fascists, and Communists in order to survive.
We must try to exterminate as many of them, the followers of the doctrine Die And Make Die, as necessary for us to survive and work to better follow our own doctrine Live And Let Live.
For us to follow our doctrine, we cannot allow them to follow theirs, for if they succeed we cannot Live to Live And Let Live.
Poisonous propaganda, for the most part.
People who go and live in other countries hold a different perspective of them, and more respect for their inhabitants and their culture, than people who depend on the news and mass media for their information.
Most of the countries we have trouble with are former colonies, and are being exploited (and being patronised by articles such as this) even now. Is there a clue there?
A clue you say ..give me a moment if you will ........no, I don't think he has a clue................
WHAT IS THE PRIMARY PROBLEM?
It is not an oil problem.
It is not an ethnic problem.
It is not an economic problem.
It is not a racial problem.
It is not a gender problem.
It is not a religious problem.
It is not a geographical problem.
It is not a political problem.
It is a psychological problem.
Some people think perpetrators, their victims, and society are all responsible for the crimes perpetrators commit.
While other people think only perpetrators are responsible for the crimes they commit.
The psychological problem is that some think perpetrators are caused to be criminals by psychological forces outside the control of perpetrators’ own free wills, while others think perpetrators are caused to be criminals by psychological forces under the control of perpetrators’ own free will.
Some think holding only perpetrators responsible for their crimes corrupts collective responsibility and promotes crime.
While others think failure to hold only perpetrators responsible for their crimes corrupts individual responsibility and promotes crime.
McTag wrote:Some comment here, that Japan was beaten anyway in 1945, and the bomb was dropped on Hiroshima to impress/deter the Russians from attempting territorial gains.
Byrnes certainly had a problem with the Soviets at that point, but he wasn't the boss -- Truman was.
Truman liked Stalin and was trying to get Stalin to join the war against Japan as soon as possible.
Truman's motive both for the bombs and for pushing Stalin to attack Japan was an overriding concern for the lives of US soldiers.
Ticomaya wrote:McTag wrote:Some comment here, that Japan was beaten anyway in 1945, and the bomb was dropped on Hiroshima to impress/deter the Russians from attempting territorial gains.
Quote:August 05, 2005
60 Years Later
Considering Hiroshima.
by Victor Davis Hanson
National Review Online
For the immediate future there were only two bombs available. Planners thought that using one for demonstration purposes (assuming that it would have worked) might have left the Americans without enough of the new arsenal to shock and awe the Japanese government should it have ridden out the first attack and then become emboldened by a hiatus, and our inability to follow up the attacks.
The article was mistaken on that count.
The third bomb was about a week away from being dropped on Japan when they surrendered.
We would have had another seven bombs by November 1st, 1945.
And in December of 1945 our bomb production rate would have increased to at least seven a month.
Section 8.1.5 here does a good job of explaining our bomb production rate had the war continued:
www.nuclearweaponarchive.org/Nwfaq/Nfaq8.html#nfaq8.1.5
Like the Japanese soldier marooned on an island for years after V-J Day, President Bush may be the last person in the country to learn that for Americans, if not Iraqis, the war in Iraq is over. "We will stay the course," he insistently tells
us from his Texas ranch. What do you mean we, white man?
-- Frank Rich, "Someone Tell the President the War Is Over",
New York Times, 14 August 2005
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/14/opinion/14rich.html