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US AND THEM: US, UN & Iraq, version 8.0

 
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Aug, 2005 09:35 am
Which part isn't true?
0 Replies
 
candidone1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Aug, 2005 09:37 am
McGentrix wrote:
I wondered how long it would take before revisionists longed for "the good old days"...


You prefer "these days" McG?
Not exactly the dog days of summer for the poor troops over there.
I think the point is that fewer Americans and fewer Iraqis were dying and living in fear like they are today. It wasn't ideal, but it was stable. Now everyone is at risk on a daily basis and they have no water, electricity, money, infrastructure or security.
I'm not attempting to change you mind because I know that you think Iraq has become the Las Vegas of the middle east since Saddam was toppled.
You may hypothesizing a future stable Iraqi nation if and only if the pipe dreams of the Bush administration ever magically manifest themselves.

It'll be interesting to see how these past 2 years are revised by the right, historically speaking.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Aug, 2005 03:11 pm
That sounds like something some people would have said during the American revolutionary war Cyclo... I am sure the years before the war were much better than the years during the war, but the results were well worth it I think. Just as the results in Iraq will be, I hope.
0 Replies
 
candidone1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Aug, 2005 03:25 pm
McGentrix wrote:
...I hope.


You G, sounds like you've lost that firm footing of unwavering confidence in the shrub.
0 Replies
 
candidone1
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Aug, 2005 03:25 pm
Just playin McG.

I too have high hopes for the future of the middle east.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Aug, 2005 03:37 pm
Even the Shrub is no longer as confident about his misdeeds in Iraq.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Aug, 2005 05:37 pm
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
I read that article McTag
The situation in Iraq is intolerable. Every other day a car bomb kills 20 30 60.
I dont think Blair or Bush has a clue what to do.


Do you? Do you have a clue about what to do? I think not! Are you going to give that now stupidly trite response: It's not my job to have a clue what to do?

It's not your job to criticize either. However, you do that regularly free of charge. Absent an alternative to compare against, criticism is worthless. Yours is no exception.

Yes:
Bush and Blair have blundered in expecting the removal of Saddam would make the solution of all the other Iraq problems simpler.

Yes:
Bush and Blair cannot yet stop about 30 Iraqi civilians being murdered daily by the malignancy. That number is about the same as it was when Saddam was running Iraq.

I propose Bush and Blair change their tactics. Stop trying to expel, incarcerate, or kill some malignancy. Stop trying to negotiate with some malignancy. Start exterminating malignancy -- all malignancy (incineration would be an effective method) -- before malignancy succeeds in achieving their repeatedly declared objective of exterminating us. That might also reduce the effectiveness of their recruiting efforts, don't you think?
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Aug, 2005 05:57 pm
Even the Irish who are known for their jokes and good beer can write meaninngful articles for our times.

August 17, 2005
Left Behind
By THOMAS LYNCH

Moveen, Ireland

LIKE President Bush, I enjoy clearing brush in August. We both like quittance of the suit and tie, freedom from duty and detail and to breathe deeply the insouciant air of summer.

He makes for his ranch in Crawford, Tex., a town with no bars and five churches. I come to my holdings near Carrigaholt, here in County Clare, where there are six bars and one church and the house my great-grandfather left more than a century ago for a better life in America.

Of course, we have our differences - the president and I. He flies on Air Force One with an entourage. I fly steerage with hopes for an aisle seat. His ranch runs to 1,600 acres. My cottage sits on something less than two. He fishes for bass stocked in his private lake. I fish for mackerel in the North Atlantic. He keeps cattle and horses. I have a pair of piebald asses - Charles and Camilla I call them, after the sweethearts on the neighboring island.

I suppose we're just trying to reconnect with our roots and home places - Mr. Bush and I. He identifies as a Texan in the John Wayne sense as I do with the Irish in the Barry Fitzgerald sense. And we're both in our 50's, white, male, Christian and American with all the perks. We both went into our fathers' businesses: he does leadership of the free world; I do mostly local funerals. Neither of us went to Vietnam, and we both quit drink for all of the usual reasons. I imagine we both pray for our children to outlive us and that we have the usual performance anxieties.

The president works out a couple of hours a day. I go for long walks by the sea. We occupy that fraction of a fraction of the planet's inhabitants for whom keeping body and soul together - shelter, safety, food and drink - is not the immediate, everyday concern. We count ourselves among the blessed and elect who struggle with the troubles of surfeit rather than shortfall.

So why do I sense we are from different planets?

"The same but different" my late and ancient cousin Nora Lynch used to say, confronted by such mysteries and verities.

Out of Ireland have we come.

Great hatred, little room,

Maimed us at the start.

I carry from my mother's womb

A fanatic heart.

It was in August 1931 when W. B. Yeats wrote "Remorse for Intemperate Speech," which includes this remarkable stanza. Yeats had witnessed the birthing of a new Irish nation through insurgency and civil war. He had served as a Free State senator, and, after winning the Nobel Prize in Literature, was the country's public man of letters. An Anglo-Irishman who had ditched high-church Christianity in favor of swamis and Theosophists and his wife's dabblings in the occult, he was torn between the right-wing politics of between-wars Europe and the romantic, mythic past of Ireland.

His poem confesses and laments that reason and breeding, imagination and good intentions are nonetheless trumped by the contagion of hatred and by the human propensity toward extreme and unquestioning enthusiasm for a cause - whatever cause. It is what links enemies, what makes terrorists "martyrs" and "patriots" among their own - the fanatic heart beating in the breast of every true believer.

Yeats' remorse was real, and well it should have been. The century he wrote this poem in became the bloodiest in the history of our species. Wars and ethnic cleansings, holocausts and atom bombings - each an exercise in the god-awful formula by which the smaller the world becomes, by technologies of travel and communications, the more amplified our hatreds and the more lethal our weaponries become. Great hatred, little room, indeed.

So far this century proceeds apace: famines and genocides, invasions, occupations and suicide bombers. Humankind goes on burning the bridges in front and behind us without apology, our own worst enemies, God help us all.

And maybe this is the part I find most distancing about my president, not his fanatic heart - the unassailable sense he projects that God is on his side - we all have that. But that he seems to lack anything like real remorse, here in the third August of Iraq, in the fourth August of Afghanistan, in the fifth August of his presidency - for all of the intemperate speech, for the weapons of mass destruction that were not there, the "Mission Accomplished" that really wasn't, for the funerals he will not attend, the mothers of the dead he will not speak to, the bodies of the dead we are not allowed to see and all of the soldiers and civilians whose lives have been irretrievably lost or irreparably changed by his (and our) "Bring it On" bravado in a world made more perilous by such pronouncements.

Surely we must all bear our share of guilt and deep regret, some sadness at the idea that here we are, another August into our existence, and whether we arrived by way of evolution or intelligent design or the hand of God working over the void, no history can record that we've progressed beyond our hateful, warring and fanatical ways.

We may be irreversibly committed to play out the saga of Iraq. But each of us, we humans, if we are to look our own kind in the eye, should at least be willing to say we're sorry, that all over our smaller and more lethal planet, whatever the causes, we're still killing our own kind - the same but different - but our own kind nonetheless. Even on vacation we oughtn't hide from that.

Thomas Lynch, a funeral director, is the author of"The Undertaking" and "Booking Passage: We Irish and Americans."

* Copyright 2005 The New York Times Company
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Aug, 2005 07:22 pm
Yes,it is sad, disgusting, horrible that we have among us a cluster of anatomically equivalents to human beings who are sworn to exterminate those of us who reject their perceptions of what life is all about. They proclaim: exterminate those who choose not to follow their interpretations of what the God of our universe wants from humanity. Such would-be exterminators must be exterminated for the same obvious reasons that we exterminated a good many of their predecessors -- the Nazis, Shintoists, Fascists, and Communists in order to survive.

We must try to exterminate as many of them, the followers of the doctrine Die And Make Die, as necessary for us to survive and work to better follow our own doctrine Live And Let Live.

For us to follow our doctrine, we cannot allow them to follow theirs, for if they succeed we cannot Live to Live And Let Live.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Aug, 2005 07:25 pm
Distributed by American Committees on Foreign Relations, ACFR NewsGroup No. 593, Wednesday, August 17, 2005; author wrote:


August 10, 2005 New York Times
All Cultures Are Not Equal
By DAVID BROOKS <http://topics.nytimes.com/top/opinion/editorialsandoped/oped/columnists/davidbrooks/index.html?inline=nyt-per>

Let's say you are an 18-year-old kid with a really big brain. You're trying to figure out which field of study you should devote your life to, so you can understand the forces that will be shaping history for decades to come.

Go into the field that barely exists: cultural geography. Study why and how people cluster, why certain national traits endure over centuries, why certain cultures embrace technology and economic growth and others resist them.

This is the line of inquiry that is now impolite to pursue. The gospel of multiculturalism preaches that all groups and cultures are equally wonderful. There are a certain number of close-minded thugs, especially on university campuses, who accuse anybody who asks intelligent questions about groups and enduring traits of being racist or sexist. The economists and scientists tend to assume that material factors drive history - resources and brain chemistry - because that's what they can measure and count.

But none of this helps explain a crucial feature of our time: while global economies are converging, cultures are diverging, and the widening cultural differences are leading us into a period of conflict, inequality and segmentation.

Not long ago, people said that globalization and the revolution in communications technology would bring us all together. But the opposite is true. People are taking advantage of freedom and technology to create new groups and cultural zones. Old national identities and behavior patterns are proving surprisingly durable. People are moving into self-segregating communities with people like themselves, and building invisible and sometimes visible barriers to keep strangers out.

If you look just around the United States you find amazing cultural segmentation. We in America have been "globalized" (meaning economically integrated) for centuries, and yet far from converging into some homogeneous culture, we are actually diverging into lifestyle segments. The music, news, magazine and television markets have all segmented, so there are fewer cultural unifiers like Life magazine or Walter Cronkite.

Forty-million Americans move every year, and they generally move in with people like themselves, so as the late James Chapin used to say, every place becomes more like itself. Crunchy places like Boulder attract crunchy types and become crunchier. Conservative places like suburban Georgia attract conservatives and become more so.

Not long ago, many people worked on farms or in factories, so they had similar lifestyles. But now the economy rewards specialization, so workplaces and lifestyles diverge. The military and civilian cultures diverge. In the political world, Democrats and Republicans seem to live on different planets.

Meanwhile, if you look around the world you see how often events are driven by groups that reject the globalized culture. Islamic extremists reject the modern cultures of Europe, and have created a hyperaggressive fantasy version of traditional Islamic purity. In a much different and less violent way, some American Jews have moved to Hebron and become hyper-Zionists.

>From Africa to Seattle, religiously orthodox students reject what they see as the amoral mainstream culture, and carve out defiant revival movements. From Rome to Oregon, antiglobalization types create their own subcultures.

The members of these and many other groups didn't inherit their identities. They took advantage of modernity, affluence and freedom to become practitioners of a do-it-yourself tribalism. They are part of a great reshuffling of identities, and the creation of new, often more rigid groupings. They have the zeal of converts.

Meanwhile, transnational dreams like European unification and Arab unity falter, and behavior patterns across nations diverge. For example, fertility rates between countries like the U.S. and Canada are diverging. Work habits between the U.S. and Europe are diverging. Global inequality widens as some nations with certain cultural traits prosper and others with other traits don't.

People like Max Weber, Edward Banfield, Samuel Huntington, Lawrence Harrison and Thomas Sowell have given us an inkling of how to think about this stuff, but for the most part, this is open ground.

If you are 18 and you've got that big brain, the whole field of cultural geography is waiting for you.
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Aug, 2005 11:47 pm
Poisonous propaganda, for the most part.

People who go and live in other countries hold a different perspective of them, and more respect for their inhabitants and their culture, than people who depend on the news and mass media for their information.

Most of the countries we have trouble with are former colonies, and are being exploited (and being patronised by articles such as this) even now. Is there a clue there?
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Aug, 2005 06:58 am
A clue you say ..give me a moment if you will ........no, I don't think he has a clue................http://www.npr.org/programs/wesun/features/2004/dec/sherlock/silhouette200.jpg
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Aug, 2005 07:12 am
interesting stuff HERE
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Aug, 2005 04:01 pm
WHAT IS THE PRIMARY PROBLEM?
It is not an oil problem.
It is not an ethnic problem.
It is not an economic problem.
It is not a racial problem.
It is not a gender problem.
It is not a religious problem.
It is not a geographical problem.
It is not a political problem.
It is a psychological problem.

Some people think perpetrators, their victims, and society are all responsible for the crimes perpetrators commit.
While other people think only perpetrators are responsible for the crimes they commit.

The psychological problem is that some think perpetrators are caused to be criminals by psychological forces outside the control of perpetrators’ own free wills, while others think perpetrators are caused to be criminals by psychological forces under the control of perpetrators’ own free will.

Some think holding only perpetrators responsible for their crimes corrupts collective responsibility and promotes crime.
While others think failure to hold only perpetrators responsible for their crimes corrupts individual responsibility and promotes crime.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Aug, 2005 04:09 pm
Distributed by American Committees on Foreign Relations, ACFR NewsGroup No. 593, Wednesday, August 17, 2005; author wrote:

Iraqi Chemical Stash Uncovered
Post-Invasion Cache Could Have Been For Use in Weapons

By Ellen Knickmeyer
Washington Post Foreign Service
Sunday, August 14, 2005; A18

BAGHDAD, Aug. 13 -- U.S. troops raiding a warehouse in the northern city of Mosul uncovered a suspected chemical weapons factory containing 1,500 gallons of chemicals believed destined for attacks on U.S. and Iraqi forces and civilians, military officials said Saturday.

Monday's early morning raid found 11 precursor agents, "some of them quite dangerous by themselves," a military spokesman, Lt. Col. Steven A. Boylan, said in Baghdad.

Combined, the chemicals would yield an agent capable of "lingering hazards" for those exposed to it, Boylan said. The likely targets would have been "coalition and Iraqi security forces, and Iraqi civilians," partly because the chemicals would be difficult to keep from spreading over a wide area, he said.

Boylan said the suspected lab was new, dating from some time after the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq in 2003. The Bush administration cited evidence that Saddam Hussein's government was manufacturing weapons of mass destruction as the main justification for the invasion. No such weapons or factories were found.

Military officials did not immediately identify either the precursors or the agent they could have produced. "We don't want to speculate on any possibilities until our analysis is complete," Col. Henry Franke, a nuclear, biological and chemical defense officer, was quoted as saying in a military statement.

Investigators still were trying to determine who had assembled the alleged lab and whether the expertise came from foreign insurgents or former members of Hussein's security apparatus, the military said.

"They're looking into it," Boylan said. "They've got to go through it -- there's a lot of stuff there." He added that there was no indication that U.S. forces would be ordered to carry chemical warfare gear, such as gas masks and chemical suits, as they did during the invasion and the months immediately afterward.

U.S. military photos of the alleged lab showed a bare concrete-walled room scattered with stacks of plastic containers, coiled tubing, hoses and a stand holding a large metal device that looked like a distillery. Black rubber boots lay among the gear.

The suspected chemical weapons lab was the biggest found so far in Iraq, Boylan said. A lab discovered last year in the insurgent stronghold of Fallujah contained a how-to book on chemical weapons and an unspecified amount of chemicals.

Chemical weapons are divided into the categories of "persistent" agents, which wreak damage for hours, such as blistering agents or the oily VX nerve agent, and "nonpersistent" ones, which dissipate quickly, such as chlorine gas or sarin nerve gas.

Iraqi forces under Hussein used chemical agents both on enemy forces in the 1980s war with Iran and on Iraqi Kurdish villagers in 1988. Traces of a variety of killing agents -- mustard gas and the nerve agents sarin, tabun and VX -- were detected by investigators after the 1988 attack.

No chemical weapons are known to have been used so far in Iraq's insurgency. Al Qaeda announced after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks on the United States that it was looking into acquiring biological, radiological and chemical weapons. The next year, CNN obtained and aired al Qaeda videotapes showing the killings of three dogs with what were believed to be nerve agents.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Aug, 2005 09:27 pm
McTag wrote:
Some comment here, that Japan was beaten anyway in 1945, and the bomb was dropped on Hiroshima to impress/deter the Russians from attempting territorial gains.


Byrnes certainly had a problem with the Soviets at that point, but he wasn't the boss -- Truman was.

Truman liked Stalin and was trying to get Stalin to join the war against Japan as soon as possible.

Truman's motive both for the bombs and for pushing Stalin to attack Japan was an overriding concern for the lives of US soldiers.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Aug, 2005 09:27 pm
Ticomaya wrote:
McTag wrote:
Some comment here, that Japan was beaten anyway in 1945, and the bomb was dropped on Hiroshima to impress/deter the Russians from attempting territorial gains.


Quote:
August 05, 2005
60 Years Later
Considering Hiroshima.

by Victor Davis Hanson
National Review Online

For the immediate future there were only two bombs available. Planners thought that using one for demonstration purposes (assuming that it would have worked) might have left the Americans without enough of the new arsenal to shock and awe the Japanese government should it have ridden out the first attack and then become emboldened by a hiatus, and our inability to follow up the attacks.


The article was mistaken on that count.

The third bomb was about a week away from being dropped on Japan when they surrendered.

We would have had another seven bombs by November 1st, 1945.

And in December of 1945 our bomb production rate would have increased to at least seven a month.


Section 8.1.5 here does a good job of explaining our bomb production rate had the war continued:

www.nuclearweaponarchive.org/Nwfaq/Nfaq8.html#nfaq8.1.5
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Aug, 2005 09:49 am
Distributed by American Committees on Foreign Relations, ACFR NewsGroup No 594, Friday, August 19, 2005; the author wrote:

Wall Street Journal

Islam, Federalism and Oil

By BARTLE BREESE BULL
August 17, 2005

In early June last year, I sat with four members of the Iraqi Kurdish military high command in Baghdad, discussing their disappointment that the U.N. resolution endorsing the new American-led dispensation in Iraq had not mentioned Iraq's current constitution, the Transitional Administrative Law. Even in Iran and Syria the TAL, with its promises of federalism and thus its brief guarantee of Iraqi Kurdish hopes, had been greeted by Kurds with dancing in the streets.

Above the heads of Brushka Nouri Shaways and his lieutenants, tough veterans of the struggle against Sunni Arab aggression in their multi-ethnic state, I saw a pair of wooden-handled flails. Splayed against the white wall, the chains of the flails had a coating that looked eerily like dried blood. I thought maybe the implements were old torture weapons from Saddam's days, hung there by the Kurds to remind them of the aspirations of their people far to the north. "No, no," said the hard men. "Those are the things the Shiites use to whip themselves at their religious festivals." Blood, indeed. How, I wondered, could such a country stick together: an Arab sect, the Sunnis, divided mortally from the Arab majority, the Shiites, with a large, mountainous minority, the Kurds, recoiling against the lash of one and the flail of the other?

It might not be fashionable to admit that Iraq, 14 months later, still has not succumbed to civil war, communal violence, theocracy, or even a moderately popular uprising against the U.S.-led occupation, but nobody can say that the Iraqis have failed thus far to conduct a responsible constitutional process. Their leaders are still at the table, and for all the frankness with which the various sides, so unusually in the Middle East, are able to present their priorities, the rhetoric of their politicians continues to reflect a restraint that Americans would welcome from Howard Dean or Tom DeLay.

The remaining challenges at stake in the current constitutional negotiations in Baghdad deserve a closer look. Islam, federalism, and oil are the main issues.

While it might seem strange to some students of history and Middle Eastern culture that women's rights have been adopted as a principal litmus test for the success of the U.S. project in Iraq, the role of Islam in that country's future is, in fact, a very practical issue in the current debates. Coverage of the issue, however, has focused on a canard. Whether or not Islam is "a," or "the only," or "a principal," or "the principal" source of law in the proposed new constitution is not the point. Islam and Shariah have been interpreted in many ways over the last 14 centuries, and if there is one thing on which neocons and MoveOn.org can agree, it is that there is nothing scary about Islam per se. Meanwhile the new Iraqi document will certainly include, as do the constitutions of even the most repressive states, language guaranteeing the gamut of human and civil rights. What really matters as we assess the new Iraqi document is how it provides for the inevitable clash between these various promises.

For this reason, it is the new draft's language about Iraq's high courts that counts most as we assess Islam's proposed role in the country's legal affairs. Who appoints the judges on the highest court? Who fires them? What are the powers of the bench vis-à-vis the executive and judiciary branches? Constitutions, like holy books, are about interpretation, and Americans and Iranians alike know that their rights, or at any rate their freedoms, can hinge on the opinion of a handful of bewigged sages.

The matter of federalism is also not as simple, or as vexed, as it looks. Iraq is already a federal country, de facto and de jure. Iraqi Kurdistan is already autonomous, and the Shiite south, east and center represent 65% of the population. When push comes to shove and the time for rhetoric has passed, Iraq's Sunni leadership, such as it is, is unlikely to agree with Western critics of Iraqi democracy that a return to the centralized nightmare is practicable. For centuries under the Ottomans, Iraq existed relatively harmoniously in a federal form, with the three vilayets of Basra, Baghdad and Mosul (which was mostly composed of what is now Iraqi Kurdistan) under the loose administration of the Pashalik of Baghdad. That is how it is now, and it will not change between today and Monday, when the final document is due.

History and current realities aside, the federal question in Iraq is subject to two other truths that ultimately will deliver compromise from the Sunni Arabs. Both are overlooked in the current analysis. The first is the fact that if the current process fails to deliver a new constitution -- either because a new draft does not emerge, or because it is rejected in October -- then it is the current constitution, the TAL, that will be the law of the land. And the TAL, which in terms of representative genesis and U.N. approbation is probably the most legitimate constitution in the Middle East, explicitly states that Iraq is "republican, federal, democratic and pluralistic." It goes on to refer to the "federal" nature of the state 26 times and to say, "Any group of no more than three governorates . . . shall have the right to form regions from amongst themselves." So the Sunni Arabs or any other group that blocks the desires of Kurds and many Shiites for a federal system in the new constitution will instead get the same result from the current one.

The Sunnis know this. Their practical beef with federalism is about the last main unresolved issue: oil. Iraq's oil is in the Shiite south and the Kurdish north, and while the Sunni Arabs might yearn for a return to their old ascendancy in a centralized state, they know they won't get it. They know that the most they can play for is a fair cut of hydrocarbon wealth. When the new document is produced, look for a guarantee of this as the key that unlocks a Sunni acceptance of the federal reality. The robustness of this guarantee will be a major determinant of the success of the new arrangement.

On a broader level, the key subtext to these negotiations is about what has happened since I spent time with the Kurdish commanders 14 months ago. Back then, it was the supreme Shiite leader Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani who had, via a personal letter to Kofi Annan, very nearly driven the Kurds out the entire project of a unified Iraq by seeing to it that the TAL was not even mentioned in the Security Council Resolution that ratified the current incarnation of the Iraqi state. Since then, much has changed. For one thing, the TAL has emerged as a real document. Its schedule for Iraq's democratic process, initially considered by many to be a mere paper formality, has proved to be more real in terms of practical politics than the car bombs of the Baathists and Wahhabis.

Perhaps more important, the leadership of Iraq's Kurds and Shiites, who only a year ago were so at odds that the Kurds very nearly abandoned the entire enterprise, have come to agreement on the basic principle that there can be no Iraq if any major group is forced to give up its present freedoms. If the Sunnis don't sign up to this dispensation, with its long and successful precedent under the Ottomans, they will be stuck with the status quo or left in an oil-less, landlocked Sunnistan of their own making, with little succor to expect from an America that is as weary of war as it is of Sunni intransigence.

Mr. Bull is writing a book about Iraqi history.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Aug, 2005 10:12 am
oralloy wrote:

...
The third bomb was about a week away from being dropped on Japan when they surrendered.

This is a fiction, according to contemporaneous reports after the war. A third atomic bomb was not 7 days but more like 7 months away.

We would have had another seven bombs by November 1st, 1945.

Would have ???

And in December of 1945 our bomb production rate would have increased to at least seven a month.

Would have ???

Section 8.1.5 here does a good job of explaining our bomb production rate had the war continued:

www.nuclearweaponarchive.org/Nwfaq/Nfaq8.html#nfaq8.1.5


Quote:
8.1.5 Availability of Additional Bombs
The date that a third weapon could have been used against Japan was no later than August 20. The core was prepared by August 13, and Fat Man assemblies were already on Tinian Island. It would have required less than a week to ship the core and prepare a bomb for combat.

By mid 1945 the production of atomic weapons was a problem for industrial engineering rather than scientific research, although scientific work continued - primarily toward improving the bomb designs.


This report contradicts what was repeatedly reported after the end of the war. I was there; I heard those reports (I didn't have television then); I read those published reports! Yes, it surely was a problem for industrial engineering; it surely was one helluva problem for industrial engineering in 1945!
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 19 Aug, 2005 08:55 pm
Like the Japanese soldier marooned on an island for years after V-J Day, President Bush may be the last person in the country to learn that for Americans, if not Iraqis, the war in Iraq is over. "We will stay the course," he insistently tells
us from his Texas ranch. What do you mean we, white man?

-- Frank Rich, "Someone Tell the President the War Is Over",
New York Times, 14 August 2005
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/14/opinion/14rich.html
0 Replies
 
 

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