Okay Lola and Blatham...time to put up or shut up!

Hi TTF,

My God!! You are inspired....... (no pun intended)

I have only briefly seen your last post - I'll be bavk.
(My best Arny S. improv) grin

hey yogurt dude. Doin any rock hunting? LTNS

Hi farmerman, hows the arm?

TTF, I know what you mean re the artists rendition. Actually portrait artists have to be very careful to not make their subject resemble themselves. Besides those figures were painted a long long time afterward.

I understand that Homer was a blind storyteller -and used one of the ancient methods of relaying stories by singing. It apparently worked well.

I did mention in my last post the writings of the "New Testament" being from about 30 yrs after Christ's death to more than 100 yrs later. The writings were found near the place where an outlaw sect of Jewish lived. I suspect - my own thought - that may be the place where the Jesus spent his lost years. I feel he was an actual living person whose beliefs followed the Jewish faith completely except for one tiny little detail - that got him into the trouble he was involved in. He advocated an afterlife for everyone, including those who could not afford to pay for it. Apparently, that really upset the Temple Priests who there-to-fore had reserved heaven for those who paid ahead of time. Ah well.
And, as you well know Constantine was hundreds of years after Christ when he ordered the finalization of the Bible. I have heard the name is from the Greek word for Book. That was after the first cannonization of the Old Testament at Alexandria - which of course preceded Jesus' time.
Thanks for adding the information re Christ's name.

You are also right IMHO re Paul - it was through his efforts that the sect endured. And certainly he helped it's spread into the area of Rome - he being a Roman.

You should - as a teacher - tell us more about the many and various translations of the writings of the Bible - and how little pieces of the book had their meanings changed over the years to fit then current thought. That would be interesting.

TTF, sorry about the delay, real life can keep me away from the computer for a while.



You seem to forget that I'm a materialist physical determinist (sheesh, what a mouthful). I don't believe in free will.

However, let's say that suddenly bright lights appear out of the sky and a voice booms out "the king james version of the bible is true", accompanied by whatever miraculous proofs are required. People would react differently still. Christian fundamentalists would be happy etc. However I still wouldn't worship that deity, true or not, since the description of him in the bible makes him morally inferior to me and thus not worthy of respect.

By your defintions isn't that free will? That I can choose how to react to the revelation?



We are not discussing religion. We are discussing the existance of gods. Your "relationship" would be as effective whether it was imaginary or not. I have no doubt that believing in a religion will have effects upon you and the real world, that however is not proof for the active existance of a deity.



I'm debating the existance of deities, the parameters I set are those necessary to make the determination of such.



What on Earth does this have to do with the discussion at hand? Now who is setting parameters outside of the discussion. I merely discuss the existance of gods. Your relationship therewith I leave to you.



This will become acceptible evidence or complaint the moment you explain why hundreds of these occurances were noted before the development of scientific method and accurate methods of verification yet zero were noted afterwards.



Let's see...

The vast majority of people don't see them and there has never been any recorded evidence of such an occurance. These "miracles" present views of reality which naturally contradict one another. And we know that humans can experience delusions.

So naturally the most likely explanation is that there is an omnipotent being causing these "miracles". I see.



You making statements like this make the supreme effort I'm making in not issuing derogatory comments on some of your arguments seem less worth my time and energy.

Next time you wish to insult my claims please provide some evidence in support for your insults.



Actually you're incorrect. Near death experiences consist of a range of traits which vary as wildly as G-Loc. If you focus on the highly biased collections of stories presented by the vocal NDE exploiters then you get the stories of people who:

A) usually have spurious financial motives for telling these stories.
B) assosciate with groups of people who have also experienced NDEs and thus have reinforcement of their experience.
C) are lead by the questioning of people with preconceived notions.

However if you read about more general discussions, or people describing their own near death experiences outside of the popular press they usually consist of a few elements here and there much like G-loc. This is why many people who have had NDEs remain unconvinced themselves on the topic..

If you want a chance to see these things occuring in a different context take a look at alien abductions and you will see the same phenomena occuring, it should give you a bit of a chance to see what's going on in NDE circles.



Simply not true. The delusions of grandeur or persectution experienced during schizophrenic episodes bear no simularity whatsoever to the symptoms of anoxia.

The fact that people experience a proportion of traits in minor cases of anoxia (G-loc) and they experience exactly the same traits in larger proportions in more major cases of anoxia (death) seems pretty clear to me that we are dealing with the same phenomena at two different levels of intensity.



I think I read that book once or at least saw it... The title sounds familiar as does the name of the author. Can't remember much more about it, must have just seen it once.



I agree entirely. Good scientific method. Of course one must beware the extreme suggestibility that occurs within children, but I'm glad the researcher took into account the problem of socio-religious upbringing.



I'm extremely curious about his method of questioning and analysis of data. It sounds like a very good experiment but one intensely vulnerable to tampering and distortion if the proper steps aren't taken.



Gosh, you're telling me that the introduction of a single hormonal marker into the bloodstream doesn't induce complex patterns of neurological states. What a shock.

Our brain is made of circuitry whose functioning is chemically influenced, yet the physical construction of the brain is far more important than the chemical patterns witnessed in there.

I suggest you read "Neuropsychological Assessment" by Muriel Deutsch Lezak, for quite a good analysis of how modifications to the anatomy of the brain (through brain damage) induce highly specific phenomena in the person's behaviour and mental ability.

This is one of the standard textbooks for studying neuropsychology, it's incredibly expensive (ridiculously so... I think it's over a hundred dollars which is crazy for a book) but your local university library should have a copy available for study and it's certainly worth the read.



I'm sorry but there I have to completely disagree with you. Modern neuropsychology is far beyond that point.



Yes... note however that my presence on this thread was to debate that he was wrong.

Thanks for your great reply.

Here is a book that is what you requested. VERY interesting and I think VERY valid and timely. Shows how scribes could have begun to alter ("Corrupt") the new testament.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0195102797/ref=wl_it_dp/104-5276378-0367925?%5Fencoding=UTF8&coliid=I2PQA04ZCH4Z3V&v=glance&colid=3522IRG7KIPER

Check it out - it was a great read on my end and really opened my eyes to the subtle changes the scribes quills had on the text itself.

TTF

WG:

You know what I find interesting - is how both of us try to stay away from the kooks. The extremists on both sides of the issue. I just find that interesting. I agree there is almost a cult like status to NDE's. I try to pick good literature on the subject and try to stay with people that have PH.d somewhere in the title. (although that certainly does not guarantee a uncorrupted book).

I will check out that book. If it is 'too' expensive I will simply get a desk copy from my local Physchology teacher - one of the few perks of being a professor.

TTF

Thanks TTF,

Jeese - no pun intended.

There is a lot of new stuff to read.................

I really like the following exerpts from some of the book reviews - actually professional persons too.=

---------------------------reviews---------------------------

1. --- Have a good Greek grammar handy because many of the arguments hinge on a verb tense, word substitutions, genders, possessives and antecedents---.
2. --- In both Testaments there are doctored "prophecies", misinterpretations, mistranslations and more-the books were cooked. Polite theologians call them, "pious errors". In other words, changes made out of the best of reasons, sorry but to me there are no reasons to change the words written closer to the time of Jesus life, ever. Certainly there can and should be newer interpretations and if new gospels, such as the discoveries at Nag Hammadi of the Lost Gospels, are found their input should be added to the mix.
However, in doing many of the things they did, the writers and scribes have cast doubt upon the entirety of the NT. Perhaps cynically they, as some do today, thought they could legislate truth out of existence, but their truth is not my truth, my truth is whatever is reality, not the wishful thinking of men either culpably corrupt, stupid or both.
Even the writings of historians like Tacitus, Eusebius and others are biased one way or the other and none too accurate, in either direction, pro or con. The "evidence" cited in the NT is not evidence at all, it is a collection of biased writings by biased men who were not witnesses to the events about which they wrote. They did not even write under their own names, and we know now that they were not the apostles, although Organized Religions tried hard to keep even that truth from us. The NT writers got much of their information from the works of Paul, who never knew Jesus, as Peter points out and Paul attests. Most of the writers of the New Testament were not even born before Jesus died.
Ehrman does a TERRIFIC job of writing in layman's terms, the truth as he sees it, even if his private feelings are perhaps a bit more passionate, as are mine. I advise my students to read the NT with the same critical eye they would read a contract or an article by anyone they do not know personally and make notes as they go. Consult a variety translations or make their own.
As to my own credentials and standing-Am I a Christian? Yes. Do I believe that God exists? Yes, do I belief that the NT was the inspired word of God? If it were it would be error free.
Do I believe that there is historical accuracy to the NT-some but not as much as one might hope. Is there a legitimate, argument supported by several independent and unbiased pieces of written evidence, the minimal requirement for a graduate thesis, as required by intelligent, well educated people as to the "facts" as the gospels relate them, no! Am I angry that some men long ago doctored early writings, and am I disappointed that the church even today does not officially own up to the gospels deficiencies, I certainly am, but I have my own relationship with the Father, so I will leave organized religions to continue to corrupt what they teach, and to misinterpret, intentionally or otherwise, and lately for political reasons, the words and works of a man who was inspired by God, was a prophet ---.


I appreciate the link - I will try to expand it. I have an insatiable appetite for such things. My Patti has earplugs. (kidding) grin

Woops!
Back again.

I actually have always thought that Christ was a real - honest to God, ((no pun intended - - - - Naaaah, I meant it!!!)) person who lived during the time period portrayed in the Bible. He actually was an intelligent person who became militant because of his convictions. Then, just like every other man of that era, met a really nice lady and started a family. Now, wouldn't that make a great book - entitled "Descendents". It's all about the many and various present day people spread all over the world who are descended from Christs' family and have to keep it a secret.

Good soap opera stuff........

I find it a strength of documents that are not too cleaned up. However, why we are in an age of clear rational thought on one hand and this silly ineffable scripture thought on the other - simply baffles me.

I can believe without believing in every damned thing.

TTF