danon5 wrote:Oh,
thethinkfactory,
Please reread my post - I never said that Christ was an Iraqi. That isn't near what actually happened in historical documents - you should try reading some of them.
They are interesting - although scribed onto clay tablets - they still exist, and are readable. It's all very interesting - mostly a bunch of business letters asking for payment and lists of possessions. They are the very first writings of human people.
The "bible" wasn't in existence until hundreds of years after Jesus Christ - it was officially introduced by the Emperor Constantine - after his Mother told him to do so. Google it.
However, the "Old Testament" did exist prior to Christ. It was well established as the Jewish bible - and still is.
It was totally Jewish - as was Jesus Christ.
If he actually existed - there is currently no evidence that he was a real person. There are many acknowledgements to him - however, there were countless thousands of Jesuses during that time frame in history - just read Josephus and/or a bunch of other historians of the time. The words Jesus Christ by the way are, 1.A Hebrew word for (Savior) and, 2. A Greek word for (Savior). The "New Testament" recounting the life of Christ was written 30 to a 100-plus years after his death - apparently with no actual connection to his life. And, by many scribes. Paul's letters, and his actions are paramont to the continuation of the religion. Although, there is no evidence they ever met in real life, if Christ existed.
Living here in the "Bible Belt" - I see countless autos with a "fish" symbol on the back of the car. Each time I bet myself that those people in the car don't actually know the origin of the symbol. It came from the early believers hiding the fact that they were believers and creating symbols to relay their beliefs to other believers. IE, the fish symbol, which was known as ICHTHUS and was an acronym for Iesous Christos Theou Uios Soter - or, Jesus Christ, son of God, Savior - in ancient Greek. It helped the early ones to congregate and hide from the Romans. I actually walked the paths of those early believers in Salzburg, Austria in the catacombs which are still existing.
I know that any Christian reading this will undoubtedly be praying for me - that's a good thing - so I say to you, please read history.
Danon - actually I was kidding - completely. It astounds me how many people can simply take artist renditions as truth. Like the 'apple' in the garden of eden or halo's on saints (aura).
When I typed Iraqi - it was a typo based on your post about Abram. I got to thinking about Adam and Eve being Iraqui's (if the 'between the Euphrates and Tigris' is not too vague)
It is more of a quirk in my humor than anything. Also, when you mention this to a suprising lot of theists they seem genuinely confused that Jesus is not white, that the apple was not in the garden, that the war of satan is not chronicled in the bible, that the seven levels of hell are also not mentioned, that the trinity is an Augustinian extrapolation, and other things.
Release your faith from your Dogma I say...
Also, look back to history and see where the most recent copy of either the Illiad and the Oddysey are found in history - and ask yourself why we take these tales to be the verbatim of Homer.
We have over 5,000 fragments or texts of the new testament dating back to the century that Christ was reported to have lived. I challenge you to find any other text from this time period or before that has better textual support.
Also, simply sweeping the Jesus figure under the rug by saying that Josephus is not relaible doesn't quite cut it I am afraid. There were many supposed saviors chronicled, this is true, and Josephus mentiones a few. The question you have to ask is why Jeshua of Nazareth's cult survived. I don't think happenstance of history (a favorite of anthropologists and scientists when they can't figure something out) accounts for this.
Also, I think you have confused other Christ figures with other Jesus's. There were others chronicled by Josephus that claimed to be Christ figures - but none that I am aware that were other Jesus figures. Jeshua was Jesus's name (as given to him by Mary - after reportedly being visited in a dream) but because he was considered the Christ does not mean that history simply made him up and gave him two names that mean savior.
Again, Josephus listed other Christ figures - but did not state or treat the Jesus figure as fabricated or simply two names for Christ slapped together to invent another being. Jeshua of Nazarath is historical fact. Whether he is indeed the christ figure is up for theological debate and faith. It is mentioned that some believed he rose from the dead - but that is up to the individual believer to take task with.
By the way - Jesus is the Latin turning of the name Jeshua or Joshua with meant Salvation not savior:
http://www.direct.ca/trinity/yehoshua.html
And to say that the bible wasn't in existence until Constantine is a bit of a misnomer. The old testament (or Torah) was in existence around the time of Jesus (perhaps as early as 300 BCE) - and the books that made up the new testament were all in existence but did not become a collection until constantine (as in the council of Nicea - I don't need to Google it - I teach it).
To say that the bible was not in existence is a misnomer. Remember, that the Codex (meaning a bound book) is a fairly new invention. The book that constantine asked for (and he asked for 50 of them) was not a codex. That kind of binding was not invented yet.
The books excluded in the council of Nicea were (mostly) included back into the catholic bible later and are called the 'Apocrypha' (meaning hidden). They were not written at this time - they were compiled from books that date back to the life of Christ or soon thereafter. Remember the cult that the Jeshua figure had started - ended in the persecution and crucifixion of many of it's members. It is not reasonable to think that many of these books could be written any sooner.
Also, Paul, the main author of the new testament, was not one of the Apostles and never pretended to write in Jeshua's lifetime. Also, we know, by Paul's words that they never met in 'the flesh'. Paul claimed to only know Jesus in the spirit as he believed he was blinded by him on the road to Damascus.
This is my understanding of it all at least from what I have read.
TTF
(Edited for a later thought)
