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Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

 
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Sun 22 Jan, 2012 07:16 am
Six thousand years or greater . . . yeah, a good deal greater. Modern man, homo sapiens has been around for 100,000 to 150,000 years. I'm not suggesting that the genome hasn't changed in that period of time, but i know of no reason to assume that there has been any significant, any dramatic change. Mitochondrial Eve is estimated to have lived 200,000 years ago. All of our mothers, and their mothers, and their mothers, etc., for 200 millennia, are descended from her. Y-chromosome Adam is estimated to have lived between 140,000 and 60,000 years ago, and all of our fathers, and their fathers, and their fathers, etc., are descended from him.

Specifying 6000 years reeks of Judeo-Christian propaganda.
spendius
 
  2  
Sun 22 Jan, 2012 07:28 am
@farmerman,
Quote:
spendi believes that necromancy and astrology are sciences.


You will have to define necromancy and astrology fm before it is possible for me to comment upon that.

The apples are in the large box at 10 o'clock at the front of the stall where you are standing and the oranges are next to them in another large box, sweet ones I might add, at 2 o'clock. If you look closely you will see that where the apple box and the orange box are pressed together to produce that satisfying aesthetic effect of regimentation and geometric order is in a direct line with your nose.

I once asked a barmaid to throw some beermats onto a table any old how, which she did very well I must say considering experimental conditions were not perfect, and it took the party who came to sit at the table no time at all to arrange them so that their sides were parallel to the sides of the table. Table settings are another example of the religious nature of geometric patterns in a Christian culture. Not wearing odd socks even. The Islamic filigree is devoid of straight lines. And the Onion domes in Moscow.

"Beauty walks a razor's edge, someday I'll make it mine."

Bob Dylan.
igm
 
  1  
Sun 22 Jan, 2012 07:39 am
@spendius,
spendius wrote:

Quote:
spendi believes that necromancy and astrology are sciences.


You will have to define necromancy and astrology fm before it is possible for me to comment upon that.

The apples are in the large box at 10 o'clock at the front of the stall where you are standing and the oranges are next to them in another large box, sweet ones I might add, at 2 o'clock. If you look closely you will see that where the apple box and the orange box are pressed together to produce that satisfying aesthetic effect of regimentation and geometric order is in a direct line with your nose.

I once asked a barmaid to throw some beermats onto a table any old how, which she did very well I must say considering experimental conditions were not perfect, and it took the party who came to sit at the table no time at all to arrange them so that their sides were parallel to the sides of the table. Table settings are another example of the religious nature of geometric patterns in a Christian culture. Not wearing odd socks even. The Islamic filigree is devoid of straight lines. And the Onion domes in Moscow.

"Beauty walks a razor's edge, someday I'll make it mine."

Bob Dylan.


This whole post (and I'm not taking sides) was funny... i.e. comedy funny... you have a way with words... Laughing
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Sun 22 Jan, 2012 07:49 am
@farmerman,
First off fm I am not conferring with gunga by pm. Nor have I done as far as I can remember. So disabuse yourself of such a solipsistic fantasy once and for all. Eh? There's a good fellow.

I will say though that I find gunga's posts amusing. It's the ****-shovelling technique. I prefer removing **** with surgical tweezers with long legs. More tastefully. Shovels don't get all the **** shifted.

Quote:
When you have no idea about what you speak you should refrain from making an ass out of yourself.


I guffaw at pronouncements of that nature. I imagine you saying it on a platform with your chest puffed out and your hackles on the edge of a quantum leap when a student asks an awkward question.

What I said in your quote is not that we should cease to try to improve our instruments. Or "give up". I'm at a loss how you could think so. My remark said nothing of the kind. And it was logical. Building a thesis on the basis of mis-reading is only logical to the one who builds it. To everyone else it's idiotic.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Sun 22 Jan, 2012 07:54 am
@Setanta,
mutations and genetic variation is fixed into the genome about every ten thousand years and a major mutation every twenty. Genetics provides a really good clock. Relics of Eden, by Daniel Fairbanks os a good account of these several and significant geneti c markers, SNPs, STR's. They have been fixing themselves into our genomes quietly and at a rate that is often surprisng. (Like the sherpa adaptation in their HOx genes or rent dietary mods that have been embedded witthin the last few thousand years.

The interesting thing about the development of the human Y variant and "Genetic Eve" is that, the original root genomes have not disappeared from the sampled subjects. The entire "Fooundation population " genic complement is preserved and merely turned "Off".
Our genomes are really like "tree rings" preserving much of our history and geographic wanderings.

Setanta
 
  1  
Sun 22 Jan, 2012 07:58 am
Things such as the Sherpas, though, and sickle cell anemia in west Africans and Koreans, are not changes to the entire genome--they're regionally affective. Nevertheless, west Africans, Koreans and Sherpas can all breed with the rest of the human race and produce reproductively viable offspring. That's what i meant by no significant or dramatic changes--we remain homo sapiens.
farmerman
 
  1  
Sun 22 Jan, 2012 08:02 am
@Setanta,
They are what are known as multiple nucleotide polymorphs where a bit of information is "inserted" into the genome, the old section turned off, and the new adaptation turned on.
just like past tree rings preserve information about the environment (thin tree rings = droughts, thicker rings=warm and humid), our genomes preserve the foundation population data as well as the new adaptation. No it is not the entire genome, but it is a small chunk of it, and really, thats all that evolution has been telling us. It really has nothing to do with some kind of reproductive isolation because sickling (when its passed by one partner) can be computed in its potential effect in the offspring just by the HArdy Weinberg expansion)>
Thats one of the reasons I fing spendi's comments about "imprecise instruments": funny. He claims to have been a chemist yet he doesnt seem to either understand or believe that our instruments are merely extensions of our senses (a billion times more sensitive ). YET we know that a bloodhounds nose is about as sensitive as the newest GAs Chromatographs. Does that invalidate the machines? Hell no. Same thing with "Gene machines"
Setanta
 
  1  
Sun 22 Jan, 2012 08:15 am
@farmerman,
Well, we're talking past each other here. My response was to North's BS about "6000 years or greater." Yes, indeed, a good deal greater than 6000 years ago. We've been homo sapiens for a hundred thousand years or longer, and that hasn't changed.
farmerman
 
  1  
Sun 22 Jan, 2012 08:19 am
@Setanta,
no it hasnt. We could probably reproduce with H sapiens idaltu also. Wed just have a crazy mixed up genetic variant from the contributions of the mother and the father.

"Who gonna take that hairy girl with da skinny laigs?"
rosborne979
 
  1  
Sun 22 Jan, 2012 08:20 am
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:
The entire "Fooundation population " genic complement is preserved and merely turned "Off". Our genomes are really like "tree rings" preserving much of our history and geographic wanderings.
So [metaphorically] this means that nothing on this planet ever really goes extinct. Everything that ever lived just gets "archived" into the genome of its descendants. And walks the earth in an archived form forever.
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Sun 22 Jan, 2012 08:22 am
@farmerman,
Quote:
"Who gonna take that hairy girl with da skinny laigs?"


Send her to the pub Spendius is waiting.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Sun 22 Jan, 2012 08:22 am
@farmerman,
One thing about bein' a girl, you never have to worry about wild monkey sex, if you really, really want it.
spendius
 
  1  
Sun 22 Jan, 2012 08:41 am
@farmerman,
Quote:
Our genomes are really like "tree rings" preserving much of our history and geographic wanderings.


But that is merely complicated and thus capable of study using mechanical processes. Easy really.

It is complexity that is under consideration. We can all determine the effects of alcohol on the human body mechanically but what about the beer that reaches regions other beers can't reach.

(A case of les majesty really. That slogan was probably inspired by champagne but champagne manufacturers are too posh to advertise their product quite so tastelessly and their customers know it anyway.)

And the Foundation population is just a convenience neatly avoiding the foundation of the Foundation population. Which is what is under consideration.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Sun 22 Jan, 2012 09:55 am
@rosborne979,
Quote:
So [metaphorically] this means that nothing on this planet ever really goes extinct. Everything that ever lived just gets "archived" into the genome of its descendants. And walks the earth in an archived form forever.
Dont know about "forever" but long enough between descendants and the foundation population have split. As they get more and more genomes of unrelated species cataloguied and we can use high speed computers to do the bookwork, we see that some of the really old species, like lungfish, have extremely long genomes compared to ours. Probably testimony of how long theyve been on the planet.
Neil Shubin discussed this in "Your Inner Fish"
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Sun 22 Jan, 2012 09:58 am
@Setanta,
Ok who wrote the R&B about "Hot Mionkey Love". hint: IT WAS NOT THE CAPTAIN AND TENIELLE
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Sun 22 Jan, 2012 10:04 am
@Setanta,
Quote:
One thing about bein' a girl, you never have to worry about wild monkey sex, if you really, really want it.


That's a heavy duty male chauvinist slab of misogyny.

As if it's the lady's fault for not asking for wild monkey sex, which I don't recommend anyway, rather than the gentleman's incapacity to supply it.

But I must admit that afficionados of the evolutionary canon perhaps see monkey sex as the puissant experience as Steve Martin faked doing in the uncut version of The Man With Two Brains.

spendius
 
  1  
Mon 23 Jan, 2012 03:57 pm
@spendius,
It is a well known hypothesis that the bourgeois type of mentality, wannabees included, are temperamentally attracted to evolutionist theories because such theories are analogous to the manner in which middle-class people think of their lives and justify them.

It is no accident that evolutionism came into vogue during a bourgeois period. They have a career with episodes of easy to understand and self-conscious changes with an upward swing (progress) towards increasing wealth or a series of rungs on a ladder. And so life itself is readily viewed in this way.

There is even an element, often avoided at cocktail parties, if, indeed, such wits are invited to cocktail parties at all, which sees a correlation between the birth of the cosmos in a Big Bang and their own infusiorian first identity and it is but a short stretch for them to imagine that if a father was in back of the latter a Father might have been behind the former. Whether the Father took advantage of the last waltz being played in a particularly heavenly fashion I cannot say as I have no credible evidence to justify such a possibility.

Obviously feminists will say a Mother. A not unjustifiable proposition given that the female gets to give the green light in both evolution and bourgeois society. It's only the barbarians who would object to so utterly wearying a notion.

The heroine's mother in Titanic was a barbarian in this respect. But not much can be said about the chap who interrupted the lady's plans because he won the ticket on the turn of a card. From an evolutionary point of view he was not a success which he probably would have been had he not left Wisconsin to try to climb a ladder of aspiration having been motivated by too many idiots praising his art more than a sensible person might have done.

Evolutionist theories are attractive for another reason: they are easy to understand, which is a significant advantage for silly twats, which the bourgeoise is mainly composed of as can be seen in any Laurel and Hardy film where they are portrayed. And numerous other artistic conceptions. But Rabelais did say that edifices built of twats are well nigh impregnable.

The Leveson enquiry into media ethics has found the bourgeois so far up itself that, like a stuck dog, it can neither go forward nor backward and is talking about positioning a very expensive stent into the Straits of Hormuz.

As an explanation of life evolutionism fails a number of tests although, as one of Darwin's pals informed him, it is quite, quite amusing.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Mon 23 Jan, 2012 04:31 pm
@spendius,
You wrote,
Quote:
It is a well known hypothesis that the bourgeois type of mentality, wannabees included, are temperamentally attracted to evolutionist theories because such theories are analogous to the manner in which middle-class people think of their lives and justify them.


Give us enough examples of this thesis to at least make it plausible?
farmerman
 
  1  
Mon 23 Jan, 2012 04:55 pm
@cicerone imposter,
If it werent for the importation of upper income AMERICAN girls to marry the economically challenged british nobility, the "upper class" English would be even more inbred and broke than they are. Thats how genetics has dictated the binomial distribution of the "Twits of English Nobility". If it werent for an AMerican girl UK wouldnt have had a Winston Churchill.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Mon 23 Jan, 2012 05:16 pm
@farmerman,
spendi also seems unawares of his own country's background:

From Wiki:
Quote:
The Normans (in French: Normands) were the people[1] who gave their name to Normandy, a region in northern France. They were descended from Norse Viking conquerors of the territory and the native population of Frankish[2] and Gallo-Roman stock.[3] Their identity emerged initially in the first half of the 10th century, and gradually evolved over succeeding centuries.
They played a major political, military, and cultural role in medieval Europe and even the Near East. They were famed for their martial spirit and eventually for their Christian piety. They quickly adopted the Romance language of the land they settled, their dialect becoming known as Norman or Norman-French, an important literary language. The Duchy of Normandy, which they formed by treaty with the French crown, was one of the great fiefs of medieval France. The Normans are famed both for their culture, such as their unique Romanesque architecture, and their musical traditions, as well as for their military accomplishments and innovations. Norman adventurers established a kingdom in Sicily and southern Italy by conquest, and a Norman expedition on behalf of their duke led to the Norman Conquest of England. Norman influence spread from these new centres to the Crusader States in the Near East, to Scotland and Wales in Great Britain, and to Ireland.
 

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