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Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

 
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Wed 18 Jan, 2012 01:38 pm
@Frank Apisa,
I have never "guessed" and called it a belief. You use the term guess because you don't want to deal with the issue of believing or not believing based on evidence (or the lack of it) and the logic (or the lack of logic) in a stated position. And you are lying again, Frank . . .

On page 275 of this thread, on Wednesday, January 11th . . .

Frank Apisa wrote:
If you can find any quote of mine saying that I consider agnosticism to be “intellectually and morally superior” to the atheistic position, just quote it so I can read it in context. (Helpful hint: Don’t bother to look, I never said that…you just made it up!)


So, no, i did not make it up. In this very post to which i am responding, you are now saying that your position is logically superior--i'm sure you will quibble and say that that is not the same as intellectually superior. But weaseling that way won't change the great central flaw in your stated position--your agnosticism is selective, you apply to the question of god, but not, for example to fairies, pixies and elves. Your agnosticism is not consistent, and therefore is not a basis upon which to claim moral or "logical" superiority. It's not a basis for claiming superiority at all. You have said several times now that you believe it is superior. So you're guessing, huh?
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Wed 18 Jan, 2012 01:50 pm
@Setanta,
Quote:
I have never "guessed" and called it a belief. You use the term guess because you don't want to deal with the issue of believing or not believing based on evidence (or the lack of it) and the logic (or the lack of logic) in a stated position. And you are lying again, Frank . . .

On page 275 of this thread, on Wednesday, January 11th . . .

Frank Apisa wrote:
If you can find any quote of mine saying that I consider agnosticism to be “intellectually and morally superior” to the atheistic position, just quote it so I can read it in context. (Helpful hint: Don’t bother to look, I never said that…you just made it up!)


Well...I will acknowledge that I was wrong...but does that make it a lie?

Don't bother to answer that...I know you just like to call people liars--and that is good enough for me. If doing so helps make your life a little more bearable...why should anyone ask you to shape up?



Quote:
So, no, i did not make it up. In this very post to which i am responding, you are now saying that your position is logically superior--i'm sure you will quibble and say that that is not the same as intellectually superior. But weaseling that way won't change the great central flaw in your stated position--your agnosticism is selective, you apply to the question of god, but not, for example to fairies, pixies and elves. Your agnosticism is not consistent, and therefore is not a basis upon which to claim moral or "logical" superiority. It's not a basis for claiming superiority at all. You have said several times now that you believe it is superior. So you're guessing, huh?


Where have I said "I believe it is superior?"

I have said it is my opinion (I consider it)...right? And I have outlines the reasons I consider it superior...and what I mean by that phrase.

Of course, if you want to go on one of your search missions...I will be interested to see if you come up with a quote where I said "I
Quote:
believe
it is superior:"...so that you can make that silly point about guessing.

C'mon, Set. Do it!

Boy, this is fun. I've really needed a bit of this kind of give and take.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Wed 18 Jan, 2012 02:05 pm
You're a legend in your own mind . . . my life is not simply bearable, i enjoy it. I called your puerile insistence on the superiority of your belief a "guess" as a satire on your silly insistence on attempting to frame debate in your own self-serving terms. A belief based on evidence and/or a sound logical basis is not merely a guess. A belief based on nothing but blind faith is superstition. I believe that cross traffic will stop at an intersection when i have the green light, even though i came within a few heartbeats and a few inches of death from an idiot who blew through a red light early one morning a little over twenty years ago. I continue to believe it is safe to enter an intersection when i have the green light because that is the sole exception in literally thousands of samples--it is a rational belief, well-founded. I respond to superstitious claims, such as that there is a god or fairies or pixies or elves bys saying i don't believe that because there is no evidence nor any logical reason to believe. So i don't beleive that. It's not making a "guess" (your silly, self-serving term), it's simply the rejection of a belief for which no foundation is offered.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Wed 18 Jan, 2012 02:30 pm
@Setanta,
Well stated, and to the point. A "guess" is neither here nor there; it doesn't have any basis in fact or reality; it's an unknown to the person using that term.
Without proof, it has no meaning.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Wed 18 Jan, 2012 02:34 pm
@Setanta,
Quote:
You're a legend in your own mind . . . my life is not simply bearable, i enjoy it. I called your puerile insistence on the superiority of your belief a "guess" as a satire on your silly insistence on attempting to frame debate in your own self-serving terms. A belief based on evidence and/or a sound logical basis is not merely a guess. A belief based on nothing but blind faith is superstition. I believe that cross traffic will stop at an intersection when i have the green light, even though i came within a few heartbeats and a few inches of death from an idiot who blew through a red light early one morning a little over twenty years ago. I continue to believe it is safe to enter an intersection when i have the green light because that is the sole exception in literally thousands of samples--it is a rational belief, well-founded. I respond to superstitious claims, such as that there is a god or fairies or pixies or elves bys saying i don't believe that because there is no evidence nor any logical reason to believe. So i don't beleive that. It's not making a "guess" (your silly, self-serving term), it's simply the rejection of a belief for which no foundation is offered.


Whatever you say, Set.

Whatever brings some true happiness into your life...go for it.

You know whether you are telling the truth or not...it should matter not a whit what I think. Either you are enjoying your life...or you are not.

To me, it sounds as though you are not. Honestly. You sound as though life is a drudge...and you want to inject unhappiness into the rest of the world in order to make the drudgery more tolerable.

I may be wrong. You know for sure.


Quote:

A belief based on evidence and/or a sound logical basis is not merely a guess.


Sounds to me as though you are explaining an opinion; an estimate; a calculation rather than a "belief." And if you are basing an estimate or an opinion or a calculation on a sound logical basis...or on evidence...then you should call it an opinion; an estimate; or a calculation.

When you call it a "belief" it more than likely is a guess...that you are trying to disguise by calling it a "belief."

In any case, I often qualify my remarks about "beliefs" to those "beliefs" when used in the context of a discussion of religion or philosophy. I try to leave "beliefs" about intersections out of the equation.

Hey, thanks again for humoring me with this continuing discussion. You are one hell of a guy.

Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Wed 18 Jan, 2012 02:41 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
Well stated, and to the point. A "guess" is neither here nor there; it doesn't have any basis in fact or reality; it's an unknown to the person using that term.
Without proof, it has no meaning.


In discussions of religion or philosophy, ci, damn near everything except "I do not know" is a guess...a blind guess at that. The blind guesses are seldom called blind guesses. Mostly they are called "beliefs." Sometimes in the positive, as in "I believe in a GOD" or "I believe there are no gods"...and sometimes in the negative, as in "I do not believe in gods."

In my opinion the first two are more accurately and truthfully expressed as:

My guess is that there is a GOD. My guess is that there are no gods.

That is merely my opinion...my estimate of the situation. You may disagree, but that is my opinion.

That last one, by the way, in my opinion, is more accurately and truthfully expressed as:

I do not know if there are gods...OR NOT.

You may disagree. But that is my opinion.

hingehead
 
  1  
Wed 18 Jan, 2012 02:54 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
I have already explained why I consider MY AGNOSTICISM to be IN MY OPINION superior to atheism (consider using agnostic rather than using atheist as a descriptive word)...and I have acknowledged on many occasions that intelligent, reasonable, well-intentioned people can disagree with me completely about it.


Fair enough Frank - when I first came across your proposing this (years ago) I thought technically you were correct but I've since come to realise you're not, in the sense that you define what the words mean, and your meanings aren't what others hold to. I had misunderstood what agnosticism is (I'm philosophy-challenged).

In this iteration of the conversation I only joined when you asked what 'proof' I have that god does not exist (without reading the pages leading up to that question). I think that again there's a definitional tangle (that Eorl has mentioned). If I swap 'evidence' for 'proof' maybe you'd find my answer more acceptable. I'll butt out now.

Drifting slightly towards the topic again...

Can I assume the intelligent designer was intelligently designed?

"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less."
"The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."
"The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master - - that's all."
(Through the Looking Glass, Chapter 6)
Setanta
 
  1  
Wed 18 Jan, 2012 02:56 pm
@Frank Apisa,
From the Merriam-Webster online dictionay, the definition of belief:

1 : a state or habit of mind in which trust or confidence is placed in some person or thing
2 : something believed; especially : a tenet or body of tenets held by a group
3 : conviction of the truth of some statement or the reality of some being or phenomenon especially when based on examination of evidence (I have added this emphasis.)

For guess, it gets a little complicated. From the same source:

Definition of GUESS
: conjecture, surmise

Now, both conjecture and surmise in that definition are links, so, for conjecture:

1 obsolete a : interpretation of omens b : supposition
2 a : inference from defective or presumptive evidence
b : a conclusion deduced by surmise or guesswork
c : a proposition (as in mathematics) before it has been proved or disproved

For surmise:

Definition of SURMISE
: a thought or idea based on scanty evidence : conjecture

Clearly, belief and guess are not cognate, they are not interchangeable synonyms. Of course you get have to have your opinions--you don't get to have your own definitions.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Wed 18 Jan, 2012 03:15 pm
@hingehead,
Quote:
Fair enough Frank - when I first came across your proposing this (years ago) I thought technically you were correct but I've since come to realise you're not, in the sense that you define what the words mean, and your meanings aren't what others hold to. I had misunderstood what agnosticism is (I'm philosophy-challenged).


Well, hingehead, we all do defining. Atheists run the gamut from those who claim gods are impossible…to those who simply claim the do not “believe in” any of the gods being offered. There are atheists here who have defined their atheism...which differs completely from the atheism of others.

Agnosticism has that same characteristic…and I have pretty clearly defined what I mean when I call myself an agnostic. Obviously, we could do away with the terms atheist and agnostic completely—and use a complete description of our position in its stead. But I am sure you realize this could get cumbersome. In any case, I have clearly defined MY AGNOSTICISM many times here in A2K…and I stand by it.

Quote:
In this iteration of the conversation I only joined when you asked what 'proof' I have that god does not exist (without reading the pages leading up to that question). I think that again there's a definitional tangle (that Eorl has mentioned). If I swap 'evidence' for 'proof' maybe you'd find my answer more acceptable. I'll butt out now.


Well I don’t think I have ever asked you for “proof” that gods do not exist…mostly because I do not think "proof" exists. But I may very well have asked you what evidence you see that gods do not exist.

Quote:
Can I assume the intelligent designer was intelligently designed?


You can assume it, but if you do, you may be wrong. I do not know if there is an intelligent designer…and if there is, I do not know if the intelligent designer was intelligently designed.

Not sure what that Humpty Dumpty bit was about, but I use the word agnostic as an expedient for the position I take of “I do not know” (it is more complicated than that, but I have explained the position thoroughly)…and I have defined what I mean by that. I think I have been logical and reasonable.

Thanks for participating. I hope you do NOT "butt out now", but that you listen and comment on what is being discussed.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Wed 18 Jan, 2012 03:17 pm
@Setanta,
Quote:
From the Merriam-Webster online dictionay, the definition of belief:

1 : a state or habit of mind in which trust or confidence is placed in some person or thing
2 : something believed; especially : a tenet or body of tenets held by a group
3 : conviction of the truth of some statement or the reality of some being or phenomenon especially when based on examination of evidence (I have added this emphasis.)

For guess, it gets a little complicated. From the same source:

Definition of GUESS
: conjecture, surmise

Now, both conjecture and surmise in that definition are links, so, for conjecture:

1 obsolete a : interpretation of omens b : supposition
2 a : inference from defective or presumptive evidence
b : a conclusion deduced by surmise or guesswork
c : a proposition (as in mathematics) before it has been proved or disproved

For surmise:

Definition of SURMISE
: a thought or idea based on scanty evidence : conjecture

Clearly, belief and guess are not cognate, they are not interchangeable synonyms. Of course you get have to have your opinions--you don't get to have your own definitions.


How very interesting. Thank you for sharing. However, I will continue to have my own opinion of the words "belief" and "believe."
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Wed 18 Jan, 2012 03:38 pm
@Frank Apisa,
There's no need to qualify guess; it already has a definition. A guess can entail anything and everything one wishes to apply it to. A guess is still a guess; nothing more, nothing less.

A guess is different than "belief or believe."
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Wed 18 Jan, 2012 03:57 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
There's no need to qualify guess; it already has a definition. A guess can entail anything and everything one wishes to apply it to. A guess is still a guess; nothing more, nothing less.

A guess is different than "belief or believe."


Well, ci, I am not actually qualifying the word…I am simply suggesting it may be misapplied.

Let me see if I can make my point:

I someone were to say to you: “I believe there are no sentient beings living on any of the planets circling the nearest 10 stars to Sol”…would you not interpret that word “believe” as a guess or would you actually assume the person is not guessing?


If a person said to you: I believe the GOD described in the Bible exists…and the Bible accurately describes what it that GOD is like” would you not interpret that word “believe” as a guess…or would you actually assume the person is not guessing?

Take a reverse version of both those examples: “I believe there are sentient beings living on several of the planets circling the nearest 10 stars to Sol” …or, “I believe NO gods exist” or “I believe it is impossible for gods to exist”…would you no interpret that word “believe” as a guess…or would you actually assume the person is not guessing?

The essence of its use is what is in question, ci. In each of those instances, the person IS MAKING A GUESS…and is applying the word “believe” to disguise the fact that he/she is making a guess.

Or at least, that is the way I see it.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Wed 18 Jan, 2012 04:14 pm
@Frank Apisa,
"Believe" can be used in many different ways to mean different things. It's usually a subjective verb used by an individual that can be true or not.

You wrote
Quote:
I someone were to say to you: “I believe there are no sentient beings living on any of the planets circling the nearest 10 stars to Sol”…would you not interpret that word “believe” as a guess or would you actually assume the person is not guessing?


No; it's only a personal observation to that individual, and has no value outside of his personal statement. It's not a "guess," he's making a statement that he himself believes to be true.

You wrote
Quote:
If a person said to you: I believe the GOD described in the Bible exists…and the Bible accurately describes what it that GOD is like” would you not interpret that word “believe” as a guess…or would you actually assume the person is not guessing?


Here again, it's a personal observation in what "he/she" believes. It's not a guess; the person actually "believes." Have you ever asked a religious person if their belief in god is a guess? I doubt it.
spendius
 
  1  
Wed 18 Jan, 2012 04:15 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
How'd I do?


Hand held out yawing so so.

I see it has been established that you have claimed to be morally superior, intellectually superior, logically superior and just plain superior to the other two sides on certain occasions and have denied claiming all those as well.

It seems to me that the god you have no evidence for, or no evidence against, existing is not the same god as either the one theists or deists believe in or the one atheists don't believe in. You make a guess about god from which you derive your moral, intellectual and logical superiority over either side. That's convenient.

I think you might have an infinite regress on your hands. You really ought to be agnostic about your guess. Which involves another guess. And so on. What evidence have you that you have no evidence on which to decide the issue.

A feral individual is in the same position. Any evidence for or against would be apparent to a feral. But a feral faced with no evidence either way would not have the god concept and thus would not discuss it with himself. So the fact that you are discussing it means you have the god concept and thus god exists as a material object in your brain assuming you think that there is no evidence for immaterial objects.

It's a social thing Frank. You like arguing and you have more people to argue with as an agnostic.

You are in a lifeboat with others. Middle of an ocean. Thick mist. None of you have any evidence to decide which direction to row in. Do you accept the result of a coin toss to decide or do you say you are not rowing because you have no evidence to decide which direction.

I'm going to the pub now otherwise I would have padded that out with some local colour and given it an atmosphere. It's the sort of thing philosophers dream up in order to orient their thoughts.

Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Wed 18 Jan, 2012 04:31 pm
@spendius,
You are in a lifeboat with others. Middle of an ocean. Thick mist. None of you have any evidence to decide which direction to row in. Do you accept the result of a coin toss to decide or do you say you are not rowing because you have no evidence to decide which direction.

Under the circumstances you mention, Spendius, I would acknowledge that I do not know which direction we should take…and I would defer to anyone who suggested a reason for rowing in a particular direction.

If the reason were a coin toss…I guess I would accept that.

I would do my part and row…hoping that at no point anyone will say, “We are making great time, but we are completely lost.”
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Wed 18 Jan, 2012 04:36 pm
@cicerone imposter,


Quote:
No; it's only a personal observation to that individual, and has no value outside of his personal statement. It's not a "guess," he's making a statement that he himself believes to be true.


So would you accept that what he “believes to be true” is a guess…or would you assume the person is not guessing and actually knows what he “believes” to be true…to be true?

Quote:
Here again, it's a personal observation in what "he/she" believes. It's not a guess; the person actually "believes."


Yeah, you keep saying that. But the “belief” in every case is a guess.

We have no evidence that there is a GOD; no evidence that there are no gods; there is no evidence that gods are impossible; and no evidence that gods are necessary for existence.

Any statement about the existence or non-existence is a GUESS…a blind guess…and it matters not that it is called a “belief.”

That was my point, ci.

How can it be anything else but a guess...no matter what it is called?
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Wed 18 Jan, 2012 04:57 pm
@Frank Apisa,
You're the one applying "guess."
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Wed 18 Jan, 2012 05:07 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
You're the one applying "guess."


C'mon, ci. I am not guessing.

But anyone who asserts the existence of gods...or denies that they can possibly exist...IS.

0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Wed 18 Jan, 2012 05:08 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Nor am I applying it.

I am making a statement about the use of the word in the context we are discussing.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Wed 18 Jan, 2012 06:05 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
I would do my part and row...


So what is the difference as far as the rest of us is concerned whether you are rowing with no evidence or not. As long as you are rowing.

But I think rowing agnostically would result in you being the first, after two shifts of 10 hours rowing, to throw yourself exhausted on the bottom of the boat saying "this is hopeless" whilst those with faith would press on and, who knows, may fetch up like Byron, regaining consciousness looking into the compassionate eyes of the daughter of the Big Chief who was out walking on the beach with her maiden companions which is out of the question if the others had agreed with you and followed your example.

 

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