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Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

 
 
Setanta
 
  2  
Tue 17 Jan, 2012 03:45 pm
Frank's definition is self-serving, as is his speculation that most atheists deny the existence of god or gods. Saying that one does not believe something is not saying that it cannot be true. This is the entry from the online etymological dictionary, a trustworth source:

Quote:
1570s, from Fr. athéiste (16c.), from Gk. atheos "without god, denying the gods; abandoned of the gods; godless, ungodly," from a- "without" + theos "a god" (see Thea).

The existence of a world without God seems to me less absurd than the presence of a God, existing in all his perfection, creating an imperfect man in order to make him run the risk of Hell. [Armand Salacrou, "Certitudes et incertitudes," 1943]


Pointing out that the word, as it is known in English, derives from a 16th century French source is not evidence that the idea is at all new. Socrates, Plato and Aristotle all offer what were essentially arguments from design, although that is not sufficient evidence that they were combating the spread of atheism--however, the fanatical insistence of the Pythagoreans on strict adherence to traditional religious forms does suggest that. Most convincing, however, is Cicero's version of the argument from design, written more than 2000 years ago.

"When you see a sundial or a water-clock, you see that it tells the time by design and not by chance. How then can you imagine that the universe as a whole is devoid of purpose and intelligence, when it embraces everything, including these artifacts themselves and their artificers?"

That is from his De Natura Deorum (On the Nature of the Gods), and it strongly suggests to me that a significant proportion of at least the literate part of Roman society were doing just precisely that--imaginng a universe as a whole devoid of purpose and intelligence. Whether or not the classical Greek world, or the Principiate Roman world had a specific term for an atheist, it seems clear to me that atheists had become at the least notorious.

For my part, of couse, i don't know if there is a god, and i don't care. Presented with the proposition, i simply say i don't believe it. That is not an assertion of certainty, it is a rejection of belief for which there is not just good evidence, but for which there is no evidence at all. My problem with Frank's approach has been brought up by many people here--the assertion that agnosticism is a superior point of view, and i re-entered this fray because that is precisely what Eorl said. I don't consider it an inferior point of view either. But as so many in this thread have pointed out, Frank's agonsticism is not an omnibus agnosticism, it is particularist--he applies is specifically to the question of god, but not to other supernaturally based superstitions.

If there is design, the myriad blunders, redundancies and vestigal, uselss survivals in evolution certainly don't suggest much intelligence involved.
wandeljw
 
  2  
Tue 17 Jan, 2012 03:46 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:
I even granted that IF there is Intelligent Design, that design is exactly what scientists are discovering…the "design" is what science is coming up with. No reason why there could not be a god…intelligently designing evolution as we are uncovering it through scientific endeavor.


This one point I do not see at all. Scientists have not discovered evidence of intelligent design behind evolution. Evolution proceeds through mutations and is shaped by ecosystems. Scientific explanation is limited to the natural world.
rosborne979
 
  1  
Tue 17 Jan, 2012 04:09 pm
@wandeljw,
wandeljw wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
I even granted that IF there is Intelligent Design, that design is exactly what scientists are discovering…the "design" is what science is coming up with. No reason why there could not be a god…intelligently designing evolution as we are uncovering it through scientific endeavor.


This one point I do not see at all. Scientists have not discovered evidence of intelligent design behind evolution. Evolution proceeds through mutations and is shaped by ecosystems. Scientific explanation is limited to the natural world.
Just as any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic, any sufficiently powerful magic could masquerade as nature.
Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Tue 17 Jan, 2012 04:16 pm
@Setanta,

Quote:

My problem with Frank's approach has been brought up by many people here--the assertion that agnosticism is a superior point of view, and i re-entered this fray because that is precisely what Eorl said.


The problem with that is that I was not the one to raise the issue of agnosticism as a superior point of view…you raised it first, Set.

I do not remember Eorl ever saying that, but if he did, I missed it.

YOU did, Set...you raised it first.

In any case, I explained that when I use the expression “superior” I mean that I see it as superior to guessing one way or the other from a rational, logical standpoint. That is how I FEEL…and I acknowledged that others may feel otherwise.

So if you have a problem with it, Set, you really should not have raised it. I was perfectly willing for the notion never to come into this discussion. You brought it up.
spendius
 
  1  
Tue 17 Jan, 2012 04:17 pm
@Setanta,
Quote:
If there is design, the myriad blunders, redundancies and vestigal, uselss survivals in evolution certainly don't suggest much intelligence involved.


That's tautological. It is posited on there having been "myriad blunders" which only look like blunders because we do not understand these things.

It's the same with wande. The mutations and the ecosystems might not be the only forces in play.

The one limits the options by defining blunders subjectively and the other limits the options by closing off alternatives.

They are logically bound to come to the conclusions they do. That's tautology.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Tue 17 Jan, 2012 04:18 pm
@wandeljw,
Quote:
This one point I do not see at all. Scientists have not discovered evidence of intelligent design behind evolution. Evolution proceeds through mutations and is shaped by ecosystems. Scientific explanation is limited to the natural world.


Wandel...I am saying that evolution occurred the way scientists are currently discovering. IF there was Intelligent Design...that is the way it was designed...the way the scientists are discovering. I am not saying they are discovering "Intelligent Design"...I am saying they are uncovering the story of evolution. IF there actually was Intelligent Design...that is the way it was designed.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Tue 17 Jan, 2012 04:20 pm
@rosborne979,
Quote:
Just as any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic, any sufficiently powerful magic could masquerade as nature.


I wish I had said that!

With your permission...I may use it some day when discussing this aspect of my argument.
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Tue 17 Jan, 2012 04:44 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank you seem to be a person that likes science what do you think about this video? it seems to answer many questions.

Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Tue 17 Jan, 2012 05:00 pm
@reasoning logic,
RL...I am not going to listen to 54 minutes of this video. Frankly, I am not interested in why some people "believe in" gods...and like most atheists here in A2K...I find most of the gods being "believed in" and worshiped here on Earth to be beneath contempt. I would have serious trouble even "liking" them...let alone "loving" them.

If you think there is anything instructive in the video and want to mention it in a paragraph or two, fine. Otherwise I thank you for offering it, but I pass.
igm
 
  1  
Tue 17 Jan, 2012 05:20 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:

If you can claim that "I do not know" is a "belief"...I doubt any logical arguments will ever make sense to you.

It's a position you've taken in opposition to theism and atheism... it's a belief. If you want to be without a belief be an atheist i.e. the type that are 'without gods'. You think you're saying, 'I don't know'... but it includes I don't believe... in theism or atheism.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Tue 17 Jan, 2012 05:30 pm
@igm,
Quote:
It's a position you've taken in opposition to theism and atheism... it's a belief. If you want to be without a belief be an atheist i.e. the type that are 'without gods'. You think you're saying, 'I don't know'... but it includes I don't believe... in theism or atheism.


As I said...if you want to consider "I do not know" to be a "belief"...then do so. If you want to consider a cow to be a butterfly, you can do that also.

But you considering "I do not know" to be a belief does no more to make it a belief than you considering a cow to be a butterfly.
igm
 
  1  
Tue 17 Jan, 2012 05:41 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:

Quote:
It's a position you've taken in opposition to theism and atheism... it's a belief. If you want to be without a belief be an atheist i.e. the type that are 'without gods'. You think you're saying, 'I don't know'... but it includes I don't believe... in theism or atheism.


As I said...if you want to consider "I do not know" to be a "belief"...then do so. If you want to consider a cow to be a butterfly, you can do that also.

But you considering "I do not know" to be a belief does no more to make it a belief than you considering a cow to be a butterfly.


You fail to see you have also the addition to which I refered to above i.e. that which is in bold above. You can't just say effectively 'no it isn't to every riposte. You now should show how you do not have a belief because this addition is not a belief that you have or should not be considered a belief. I'm saying it is. Now its your turn to show 'it is not'... not just to say 'it is not'.

Or to get allies (where are those agnostic allies?) or cite something... don't be an evasive politician about it.
spendius
 
  1  
Tue 17 Jan, 2012 05:48 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
Just as any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic, any sufficiently powerful magic could masquerade as nature.



I wish I had said that!

With your permission...I may use it some day when discussing this aspect of my argument.


I wouldn't if I was you Frank if you are in intelligent company. It's another tautology. "Sufficiently" is the clue. It also omits to define who can't distinguish.

Think of a 4 year old's birfday party and a $20 magician pulling a rabbit out of a hat.
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Tue 17 Jan, 2012 05:51 pm
@igm,
Quote:
'I don't know'... but it includes I don't believe... in theism or atheism.


Do you think that he believes that both atheism and theism are both the wrong way of viewing things?
Could he know by sharing some sort of empirical evidence that they both are wrong?
Does he believe that agnosticism is the best way for him to view all of this?
spendius
 
  1  
Tue 17 Jan, 2012 06:04 pm
@spendius,
Where are wande and Setanta to answer the tautology charge I brought against them? Tautologies are meaningless and meaninglessness has no place in debates about what to teach in a nation's classrooms.

Neither do examples of running away from an itsy-bitsy argument.
0 Replies
 
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Tue 17 Jan, 2012 06:31 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank I do not blame you for not wanting to watch a long lecture that covers many areas of science.

I would like to share a very short video that shares allot of my type of thinking.
I can only guess that you have seen enough of my type of thinking but I do think that you may agree with allot of this video.

rosborne979
 
  1  
Tue 17 Jan, 2012 07:12 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:

Quote:
Just as any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic, any sufficiently powerful magic could masquerade as nature.


I wish I had said that!

With your permission...I may use it some day when discussing this aspect of my argument.

Go for it. Just try not to take me out of context too badly Wink
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Tue 17 Jan, 2012 07:41 pm
@igm,
igm...if you want to consider "I do not know" as a "belief"...then do so.

I do not care what you put in bold, igm..."I do not know" is not a belief.

I appreciate your tenacity, but in defending that, you are defending something that is absurd.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Tue 17 Jan, 2012 07:46 pm
@spendius,
There are times when a tautology serves a serious purpose, Spendius.

I offered a tautology just before leaving a few years ago...in defense of a position you were taking. I offered it again when I visited this thread to say hello to a few old acquaintances.

If there is the possibility of a god...there is the possibility of Intelligent Design.

The value: Seeing if the opponents of Intelligent Design could even accept and acknowledge something as meaningless...but true...as this.

They wouldn't...and perhaps couldn't.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Tue 17 Jan, 2012 07:55 pm
@reasoning logic,
If I may, RL…I would like to comment on your questions to igm. I hope you don't mind the intrusion.

Quote:
Do you think that he believes that both atheism and theism are both the wrong way of viewing things?


Not wrong…but not as logical, reasonable, or accurate as “I do not know”...which I term "the agnostic perspective." Obviously one of them is correct…either there are no gods…or there is at least one god. So there is no way I would suggest they are wrong. But I think a response of “I do not know…and I do not have enough evidence upon which to base a meaningful guess” is more logical. This is just my take on this...and I regularly acknowledge that other people may feel completely differently on the issue.

I also acknowledge that some atheists do exactly what I am doing…except that they prefer the word “atheist” to describe the position. I feel the word “agnostic” is more accurate.


Quote:
Could he know by sharing some sort of empirical evidence that they both are wrong?


Does he believe that agnosticism is the best way for him to view all of this?


My response to both these items are contained in my response to the first.
0 Replies
 
 

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