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Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Tue 2 Sep, 2008 06:54 pm
@spendius,
spendi, Here's a clue for you; rosborne's pretend is better than your's, and that's because his posts are much easier read and understand.
spendius
 
  0  
Wed 3 Sep, 2008 04:31 am
@cicerone imposter,
So "easier to read and understand" = "better" does it?

That's a dumbing down policy. Education in bottom gear. Everybody passes and qualifications become meaningless. It's happening here. Pop education.

People start recommending Terry Darlington rather than Proust.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  0  
Thu 4 Sep, 2008 07:44 am
I've seen a part of this movie-

America: From Freedom to Fascism

What that all about? Is the IRS unconstitutional?

The Constitution is constantly being invoked on this thread.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Fri 5 Sep, 2008 08:16 am
I saw most of a programme about the LHC in Geneva.

What a load of bollocks. Finding out what happened a billionth of a second after the Big Bang 13.7 billion years ago. Or hoping to. Just wait till the taxpayer finds out what happened to his billions of dollars.

Physics is now a religion. Everything about the language and the style, hushed tones and incantations, of the programme was religious as well it might be considering the billions of dollars.

Nobody was allowed to answer back though so it's a religion still in its infancy. It seems that Professor Higgs thought of his "bosun" whilst tramping the moors all on his JJ. Into the teeth of a blizzard I presume.

We were told that our leading bookie was offering a million to one on the universe disappearing when the protons collide next week, and that somebody had placed a bet and the odds were drastically reduced to 500,000 to 1 as a result. So we all have our fingers crossed.
Steve 41oo
 
  2  
Fri 5 Sep, 2008 11:08 am
@spendius,
physics is not a religion

you are clever enough to know that

tell it to the higgs boson
spendius
 
  0  
Fri 5 Sep, 2008 12:22 pm
@Steve 41oo,
It looked like a religion to me Steve. No women priests either. I don't think women have much time for physics theory.

There were a few OT prophet types with bulging eyes. They had faith.

The extraordinary hubris was palpable. On this little satellite circling this little sun which is in an outer suburb of our galaxy which is one of a seemingly infinite number of galaxies, are some men who are hoping, and hope is important in religion, to find out what happened a billionth of a second after the Big Bang before which there was nothing, not even a chip shop. And with absolutely no sense of any effort to search for ways of bringing women under control. It was hilarious.

Did you read a lot of science fiction in your youth Steve?

Have you ever seen a young girl aggravate a hungry puppy with a dog biscuit?
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  0  
Sun 7 Sep, 2008 12:59 pm
I saw the LHC programme again last night. I snatched a few notes this time.

Quote:
Every civilisation has its own creation story.


Which suggests that having no creation story equals having no civilisation and that it can be pretended that civilisation will still exist without one on the back of the residue remaining.

Quote:
Once there was nothing. No space--no time.


The human mind can't grasp that. It is easily said though.

Quote:
Physics is stuck.


Hit the buffers I have said on here.

Quote:
All traces of the original enigmatic building blocks is lost. We hope the LHC will bridge this profound gap in our knowledge.


Not a cat in hell's chance. Hey--they had NOZMO KING signs on all the doors.

The presenter, who looked off his head as well as sounding it, did awestruck when he opined-

Quote:
The circumference of the machine is 27 kilometers.


They showed a photograph of the area with a white ring superimposed on it.
As if that is big when they were looking into the infinite. What infantile hubris.

Quote:
It's way beyond anything we have ever had before.


Sheesh! The Empire State Building was that once.

Quote:
Physicists are searching for every better ways to torture matter.


He must have been nervous about saying torture Nature.

We were taken to the Fermi labs in California. He showed us the names of 16 particles. "Don't forget the gluon" he said. After $billions --Zilch. Blackboards covered in hieroglyphs.

The "Standard Model" was said to show "huge mathematical coherence" and forgetting to mention that mathematics is circular. It is also "ugly" with elements in it "mysterious and arbitary even." "Spooky", was uttered.

It seems that the SM says that particles have no mass and hence is "incomplete". He wondered aloud, "what's missing?" He could have said anything but he chose to say that it is what makes stuff stuff. To get round this he "explained" that every particle in the universe is traversing the "Higgs' Field and those that have mass get it from interacting with this "field" and those that don't, photons, don't.

Quote:
If we can find the Higgs Bosun we will be a step nearer to understanding the universe.


We've heard that sort of thing so often it has ceased to impress us.

He actually called it the "God" particle.

He then called it a "modern form of alchemy". Which it is. Our money changed into their dinners. They are trying to change energy into mass.

Quote:
It's left us wondering if we know what we are doing.


Quote:
Will we make a black hole? And everthing vanish instantaneously.


To which a youngish but harried looking lady in a hard hat responded- "I think it's very, very unlikely."

So be reassured folks- It's peer reviewed. Very, very unlikely.

Quote:
If we fail it proves the God particle doesn't exist and that there's something in atomic physics we don't understand.


There was nothing in the programme to contradict the YECs. It's only a subjective adherence to your own conditioning and the use you are putting it to that convinces you that the YECs are ridiculous. It's a faith.

The LHC is Leggo for nutters.

Then they got onto string theory and they just got sillier and sillier. These so-called strings are "unimaginably small". So why try to imagine them? And gravity becomes "incredibly strong". "infinitely strong" was also employed as was "incredibly hot."

Quote:
Nobody can make a prediction we can test. It's like philosophy and religion.
Quote:


Treatment in the community it looked like to me. Patrick Moore on kinnikinik. Mainlined.

If it represents our "need to know", as he insisted, then Genesis looks a damned sight cheaper. But who wants it cheaper eh? That is unbusinesslike.

And Genesis has the great advantage of a capacity to erect a system of ethics and morality on which that lot hasn't.

It struck me in the pub later that the government has a problem of what to do with these extremely high IQ people who have kept a load of professors in buns and cakes all their adult lives as they are unfit for any rational purpose.

Sticking them 100ft down in Geneva to dream their dreams seems as humane a solution as there is.

It's a religion Steve.


spendius
 
  1  
Sun 7 Sep, 2008 01:09 pm
@spendius,
Ignore quote boxes. I wrote that.

Apart from the top line--"Nobody can make a prediction we can test. It's like philosophy and religion." --that's from the programme. Apologies for that.
Steve 41oo
 
  2  
Mon 8 Sep, 2008 04:48 am
@spendius,
It may appear to be a religion to you Spendy, and its easy to lapse into religion-ese when contemplating the infinite, but this is hard science. Hard to do hard to understand and hard to finance. Admittedly the world has more pressing problems than the existence or not of the Higgs Bosun, but dont you find it fascinating? Prof Sir David King said great minds should be focussed on providing for 9 billion people on one small planet, but given that the powers that be actually dont give a stuff about anything beyond the next election, aren't you gripped by the prospect of understanding the fundamental properties of matter?

Of course the LHC has put a lot of dinners on tables....and I fear it might not be quite big enough...just a few more Gevs from a machine ten times as big and we find the God particle...or not. But we are not at that point yet. Lets switch it on and start playing with it.
spendius
 
  2  
Mon 8 Sep, 2008 06:02 am
@Steve 41oo,
I watched the programme twice Steve. It was hilarious.

Oscar Wilde, who was somewhat less of a Christian than you are or anybody else on here, called one morning on Frank Harris, of blessed memory, and found him reading the Bible. I quote from My Life and Loves, a book you really should have read Steve.

Quote:
"Wonderful book, Frank," he said.

"A fairy tale of religion," I said, "the development of a national conscience."

"Not quite that, Frank," he said gravely, "it's its truth that impresses me."

"Truth?" I questioned.

"Yes, Frank," and the fine eyes laughed. "It begins, you know, with a man and woman in a garden and naturally it ends with Revelations."


Watch the programme Steve. It was their best shot at presenting themselves to the English speaking world. And it was one assertion after another from start to finish. Pure pious religion. But with no conscience being created of any sort. A jam butty mine.

And yes--I do find it fascinating. Why did they not cover what the denizens do when off duty. They focus on that with the clergy. (Well-those who haven't read Balzac I mean and are still into peekaboo voyeuristic prurience.)

If the thing went round the globe, which is probably what their ambition is, they still won't find out how it all got started.

They have got loose from their moorings like any dissolute offspring of the aristocracy.

And I don't think "the powers that be" are as cynical as you would have them. It is too easy to think such things.

How much electricity has been, and will be, used? How much human resource? Helping to increase our need to buy energy and thus more in debt to the suppliers.

Steve 41oo
 
  2  
Mon 8 Sep, 2008 06:30 am
@spendius,
Well I cant watch it because I didnt record it, so I'll rely on your assessment of it being comedy.

But the basic point of contention here is whether science, and particularly high energy physics is a religion. If it is, then there is no distinction between science and religion, its all just guesswork. I dont believe that for a moment.
spendius
 
  1  
Mon 8 Sep, 2008 07:36 am
@Steve 41oo,
Steve-

I'm told that if you search Google for BBC i-player you can see most of their programmes from the last week. I've not tried it yet.
spendius
 
  1  
Mon 8 Sep, 2008 07:40 am
@spendius,
I just got it straight away. I typed "Big Bang LHC Geneva" in their search box.

In the Google search box I typed BBC i-player.
spendius
 
  1  
Mon 8 Sep, 2008 11:14 am
@spendius,
I watched it again Steve.

Every note of the music score was Christian to its roots.
Steve 41oo
 
  2  
Mon 8 Sep, 2008 12:02 pm
@spendius,
ah well now we have a second problem as I have no sound card on this computer
spendius
 
  1  
Tue 9 Sep, 2008 06:27 am
@Steve 41oo,
You're missing a lot Steve. That rap thing Bob put on was very good. Madness style.
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Wed 10 Sep, 2008 04:13 pm
@spendius,
spendius wrote:
You're missing a lot Steve.
this state of affairs is quite normal
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Thu 2 Oct, 2008 04:58 am
This was written in the preface to a fairly famous book in 1909.

Quote:
The wonderful age in which we live--this twentieth century with its X-rays that enable us to see through the skin and flesh of men, and to study the workings of their organs and muscles and nerves--has brought a new spirit into the world, a spirit of fidelity to fact, and with it a new and higher ideal of life and art, which must of necessity change and transform all the conditions of existence, and in time modify the almost immutable nature of man. For this new spirit, this love of the fact and of truth, this passion for reality will do away with the foolish fears and futile hopes which have fretted the childhood of our race, and will slowly but surely establish on broad foundations the Kingdom of Man upon Earth. Fot that is the meaning and purpose of the change which is now coming over the world. The faiths and convictions of twenty centuries are passing away and the forms and institutions of a hundred generations of men are dissolving before us like the baseless fabric of a dream. A new morality is already shaping itself in the spirit; a morality based not on guesswork and on fancies; but on ascertained laws of moral health ; a scientific morality belonging not to statics, like the morality of the Jews, but to dynamics, and so fitting the nature of each individual person. Even now conscience with its prohibitions is fading out of life, evolving into a more profound consciousness of ourselves and others, with multiplied incitements to wise living. The old religious asceticism with its hatred of the body is dead; the servile acceptance of conditions of life and even of natural laws is seen to be vicious; it is of the nobility of man to be insatiate in desire and to rebel against limiting conditions; it is the property of his intelligence to constrain even the laws of nature to the attainment of this ideal.

Already we are proud of being students, investigators, servants of truth, and we leave the great names of demigods and heroes a little contemptuously to the men of bygone times. As student-artists we are no longer content with the outward presentment and form of men: we want to discover the protean vanities, greeds and aspirations of men, and to lay bare, as with a scalpel, the hidden motives and springs of action. We dream of an art that shall take into account the natural daily decay and up-building of cell-life; the wars that go on in the blood; the fevers of the brain; the creeping paralysis of nerve-exhaustion; above all, we must be able even now from a few bare facts, to recreate a man and make him live and love again for the reader, just as the biologist from a few scattered bones can reconstruct some prehistoric bird or fish or mammal.


That's more like anti-ID instead of this wishy-washy, half-baked, 95 % Christian bullshit we get on here from these married men who could go nowhere near, due to their namby-pamby consciences, living the sort of life this author lived and which he is here attempting to justify.

It would be unfair to name the author and the book because one or two of our truth seekers on this thread might work up the nerve to read him and all they would discover is what a silly bloody hypocrite they actually are in everything they do and think when faced with anti-ID in a reasonably advanced form although not in the same league as the divine Marquis.

All one can say about the anti-ID on this thread is that it provides an excuse to rant and insult and to get out what is obviously a pent up rage.

The writer, at the time, was rich and successful and a power in the land. He was an American citizen although not by birth. Nothing would have amused him more than to look in on the lives of anti-IDers and the people who write the dire journalism wande incessantly quotes.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Thu 2 Oct, 2008 05:17 am
So Constable Dogberry weighs in with his tripe again.
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Thu 2 Oct, 2008 05:22 am
@farmerman,
So Constable Dogberry weighs in with his tripe again.

You have a way with words, farmerman. Can't say I disagree.
 

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