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Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Tue 12 Aug, 2008 10:06 pm
The fact of the matter is, most of us don't take spendi too seriously. We are here mostly for entertainment value.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  0  
Wed 13 Aug, 2008 03:48 am
c.i.

I think going to all the trouble, unnecessary trouble, to install an "ignore" function on my posts is taking me more seriously than even I think justified.

JTT- I cannot understand your post. On science threads one really isn't supposed to declare things nonsense. One is supposed to explain why.

Are you having difficulties defining "wife" scientifically and are resorting to bluster to try to cover it up.

There are a lot of things that haven't been covered on this thread. I was referring to your-

Quote:
All that any sane person is asking is that that "Christian education" meets certain minimal standards of education.


which, of course, doesn't mean anything. Statements which don't mean anything are the anti-IDer's stock-in-trade. The thread is littered with such fatuous generalisations.

We were trying to discuss wande's search for "symbols of evil" in unlikely places such as the CCCS. I refer you to the quote I gave from J.K. Galbraith's The Great Crash. Was JK "sane"?

Are you an atheist?
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  0  
Wed 13 Aug, 2008 05:47 am
BTW c.i.-

What sort of educational philosophy are you recommending when you respond to my post 3351641 on page 1715 by simply declaring that you don't take it too seriously.

It seems rather the easy way out which is profoundly unAmerican and not the "right stuff" at all. It is almost a yelp of despair. Or a hysterical giggle.

Will you explain why you don't take that post too seriously?

We might need to consider that if your inability to understand it is the cause of you not taking it too seriously then what exactly would we be justified in thinking are your qualifications for being allowed an influence on educational policies affecting 50 million kids and the millions coming up after them.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  2  
Wed 13 Aug, 2008 08:40 am
Quote:
Judge says UC can deny religious course credit
(Bob Egelko, San Francisco Chronicle, August 13, 2008)

A federal judge says the University of California can deny course credit to applicants from Christian high schools whose textbooks declare the Bible infallible and reject evolution.

Rejecting claims of religious discrimination and stifling of free expression, U.S. District Judge James Otero of Los Angeles said UC's review committees cited legitimate reasons for rejecting the texts - not because they contained religious viewpoints, but because they omitted important topics in science and history and failed to teach critical thinking.

Otero's ruling Friday, which focused on specific courses and texts, followed his decision in March that found no anti-religious bias in the university's system of reviewing high school classes. Now that the lawsuit has been dismissed, a group of Christian schools has appealed Otero's rulings to the Ninth U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in San Francisco.

"It appears the UC is attempting to secularize private religious schools," attorney Jennifer Monk of Advocates for Faith and Freedom said Tuesday. Her clients include the Association of Christian Schools International, two Southern California high schools and several students.

Charles Robinson, the university's vice president for legal affairs, said the ruling "confirms that UC may apply the same admissions standards to all students and to all high schools without regard to their religious affiliations." What the plaintiffs seek, he said, is a "religious exemption from regular admissions standards."

The suit, filed in 2005, challenged UC's review of high school courses taken by would-be applicants to the 10-campus system. Most students qualify by taking an approved set of college preparatory classes; students whose courses lack UC approval can remain eligible by scoring well in those subjects on the Scholastic Assessment Test.

Christian schools in the suit accused the university of rejecting courses that include any religious viewpoint, "any instance of God's guidance of history, or any alternative ... to evolution."

But Otero said in March that the university has approved many courses containing religious material and viewpoints, including some that use such texts as "Chemistry for Christian Schools" and "Biology: God's Living Creation," or that include scientific discussions of creationism as well as evolution.

UC denies credit to courses that rely largely or entirely on material stressing supernatural over historic or scientific explanations, though it has approved such texts as supplemental reading, the judge said.

For example, in Friday's ruling, he upheld the university's rejection of a history course called Christianity's Influence on America. According to a UC professor on the course review committee, the primary text, published by Bob Jones University, "instructs that the Bible is the unerring source for analysis of historical events" and evaluates historical figures based on their religious motivations.

Another rejected text, "Biology for Christian Schools," declares on the first page that "if (scientific) conclusions contradict the Word of God, the conclusions are wrong," Otero said.

He also said the Christian schools presented no evidence that the university's decisions were motivated by hostility to religion.

UC attorney Christopher Patti said Tuesday that the judge assessed the review process accurately.

"We evaluate the courses to see whether they prepare these kids to come to college at UC," he said. "There was no evidence that these students were in fact denied the ability to come to the university."

But Monk, the plaintiffs' lawyer, said Otero had used the wrong legal standard and had given the university too much deference.

"Science courses from a religious perspective are not approved," she said. "If it comes from certain publishers or from a religious perspective, UC simply denies them."
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  2  
Wed 13 Aug, 2008 09:31 am
spendius wrote:

JTT- I cannot understand your post. On science threads one really isn't supposed to declare things nonsense. One is supposed to explain why.

Are you having difficulties defining "wife" scientifically and are resorting to bluster to try to cover it up.



There are a lot of things that haven't been covered on this thread. I was referring to your-

Quote:
All that any sane person is asking is that that "Christian education" meets certain minimal standards of education.


which, of course, doesn't mean anything. Statements which don't mean anything are the anti-IDer's stock-in-trade. The thread is littered with such fatuous generalisations.

We were trying to discuss wande's search for "symbols of evil" in unlikely places such as the CCCS. I refer you to the quote I gave from J.K. Galbraith's The Great Crash. Was JK "sane"?

Are you an atheist?


You can discuss anything you like, Spendi, but there's no reason that I should try to follow your inane questions. You are all over the map with nonsensical questions.

The statement that man made was ludicrous in the extreme. Of course religion will get "watered down" when it is compared to science. It can't hope to keep up with science because it is a series of fairy tales, mixed with folklore.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Wed 13 Aug, 2008 11:12 am
JTT wrote-

Quote:
You can discuss anything you like, Spendi, but there's no reason that I should try to follow your inane questions. You are all over the map with nonsensical questions.

The statement that man made was ludicrous in the extreme. Of course religion will get "watered down" when it is compared to science. It can't hope to keep up with science because it is a series of fairy tales, mixed with folklore.


I know that I cannot discuss anything I like for which you should be grateful.

Before your remarks can be allowed to contain the slightest sense you need to define "religion", "science", "inane", "all over the map", "nonsensical", "ludicrous", "keep up", "fairy tales" and "folklore." As it stands you have a bundle of trite, disparaging cliches as an alternative to any serious thinking. It's a mere stream of subjectivities which justify then anybody else's use of streams of subjectivities unless you can provide evidence that your subjectivities have more validity than their's.

It seems to me that it is of no consequence what the University of California does if its entrants use English in the manner you have done. There is no possibility of "educating" anybody who embraces such a pile of obvious drivel.

Did you mean Professor Galbraith by "that man"?
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Wed 13 Aug, 2008 11:14 am
JTT-

There is a reason why you should try to follow my questions. It is that you look pretty damn silly responding to them if you don't.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Wed 13 Aug, 2008 11:26 am
The TV critic of the Sunday Times had this to say-

Quote:
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Wed 13 Aug, 2008 11:33 am
wande-

You're flogging a dead horse. Again.

Not so long ago the Catholic Church would have set the CCCS on fire. Today it just raises one eyebrow and smirks meaningfully.

If the University of California rejects Christian students it will go out of business or become very truncated.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Wed 13 Aug, 2008 01:03 pm
JTT wrote-

Quote:
folklore


I don't suppose you know that penecillin used to be called mouldy bread. In fact there are quite a lot of well known substances that have been given a new and more serious sounding name in our enlightened scientific age.

I think it facilitates plonkers posing as experts and as there are a very great number of plonkers wishing to do that for commercial or psychological reasons you can easily see, I hope, why it has caught on and has been embraced so enthusiastically and treated with such reverence.

As I pointed out years ago, as A.A. Gill also does in the Sunday Times quote I gave, Darwin is ideal for that sort of thing.

I said something like "any old plonker can understand Darwin." Mr Gill is just being more polite with his-

Quote:
Unlike the ideas of Newton or Hobbes or Adam Smith, natural selection is clearly understandable and explainable.


and his-

Quote:
accessible to everyone


One imagines "everyone" includes the D stream. All the voters, say.

One can be an expert you see without bothering your head with Newton & Co.

How very convenient.

Universities these days are a bit like ladies' hairdressing salons except that they do the inside of your head in the latest fashion and their staff are uglier.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Thu 14 Aug, 2008 05:31 am
This thread has been quoted twice on a website called "Fundies Say The Darndest Things". (both quotes were from spendius)
spendius
 
  1  
Thu 14 Aug, 2008 06:01 am
@wandeljw,
What were they wande?
wandeljw
 
  1  
Thu 14 Aug, 2008 06:40 am
@spendius,
They were interesting, spendi. Each of your quotes started a discussion among members of that website, "Fundies Say The Darndest Things" (fstdt.com).

If you go to the website you can search "spendius" in their archives.
spendius
 
  1  
Thu 14 Aug, 2008 07:12 am
@wandeljw,
All my posts are interesting wande. I wouldn't write them otherwise. Why would I write things I thought uninteresting.

I never do a Trivia thing without finding a second connection. Something novel. Usually quite trite but you can't have everything. Sometimes inspiring.

My posts are interesting in the same way that I'm a dipshit to Settin' Aah-aah when he types out that I am. It's a fact.

If others don't find them to be interesting what can I do about it except type out uninteresting posts hoping they will then find my posts interesting. Which I know they won't anyway because they only read posts once and quickly and use them to glop off something they find interesting without the slightest intention of being Abled 2 Know any damn thing at all.

Of course, being human, I will admit to a slight frisson of pleasure when another human being finds my interesting posts, as opposed to my hypothetical uninteresting ones I mean, interesting.

It makes it all seem worthwhile after all.
spendius
 
  1  
Thu 14 Aug, 2008 07:25 am
@spendius,
Would you link them for me. Just the bits where I was quoted.

I can't make head or tail of it. I'm struggling to come to terms with matters closer to home. Without that Forum Page it isn't going to be like a pub with no beer anymore.
wandeljw
 
  1  
Thu 14 Aug, 2008 08:35 am
@spendius,
This is the link to a discussion of one of your quotes on the fstdt website:
http://www.fstdt.com/fundies/comments.aspx?q=19325
spendius
 
  2  
Thu 14 Aug, 2008 09:01 am
@wandeljw,
Thanks wande-- they seem to have similar sorts of views as you lot do.
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Fri 15 Aug, 2008 05:49 am
@wandeljw,
Judging from some of the posts on that site, they might want to change the name of that site from "Fundies Say the Darndest Things" to "Fundies Say the Sickest Things".

wandeljw
 
  1  
Fri 15 Aug, 2008 07:30 am
@rosborne979,
Rosborne,

I did a search on that site. They have quoted gungasnake 3 times, spendius 2 times, and RexRed once.
wandeljw
 
  1  
Fri 15 Aug, 2008 08:46 am
Quote:
The Right to Control Standards
( Scott Jaschik, Inside Higher Ed, August 14, 2008)

If you look at the admissions requirements of most colleges, you’ll find listings of high school courses: specified numbers of years of mathematics, science, English and so forth. Frequently, there are references to the courses being college preparatory, not just any course in the subject area. And that begs a question: Who gets to decide what is college preparatory?

A federal judge’s ruling has upheld the right of the University of California to make its own evaluations of high school courses, provided that the university demonstrated a “rational basis” for its decisions, and that the decisions were not based on animus toward any group or faith. And Judge S. James Otero found that the university’s decisions to reject certain high school courses at some Christian schools met that test.

Christian groups are appealing the decision to the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit, so the dispute is far from over. The groups suing say that the case is about religious freedom, but university officials say it is about academic standards. Outside California, admissions officials have been watching carefully because colleges must often evaluate the quality of high school courses " at religious or secular schools " and many feared that their ability to do so would be jeopardized if the university lost the case

“This is about quality and comparability and making sure students aren’t set up for failure,” said Barmak Nassirian, associate executive director of the American Association of Collegiate Registrars and Admissions Officers, who praised the judge’s ruling.

The University of California " as a large and competitive system " has specific criteria on which courses students must take in high school and how courses are evaluated to determine whether they are acceptable. The lawsuit against the university first came from Calvary Chapel Christian School and some of its students " and was joined by the Association of Christian Schools International, whose member schools across the United States enroll more than 600,000 students. The association supports education based on its statement of faith, which affirms biblical inerrancy.

The judge’s decision goes through the various rejected courses and finds that the university’s rationale meets the “rational basis” test, and rejects arguments that there was evidence of religious bias. For example, one of the courses was an English course called “Christianity and Morality in American Literature.” The university noted that the text used “insists on specific interpretations” of various literary works, rather than allowing students to engage in critical thinking about them.

In addition, the university noted that it considers it necessary for high school students to read complete works of literature, while this course relied on “an anthology of excerpts.” In a history course the university rejected, the text instructed students that “divine providence” is the source of all of history and that historical figures needed to be evaluated based on their “religious motivations,” in contrast to university expectations of the range of analyses high school students should learn. A science course was rejected for using textbooks that characterized religious doctrine as science and for failing to teach the scientific method.

Jennifer Monk, a lawyer for the Christian schools, said that the judge had ignored the religious bias of the university, and that academic standards were not the issue. “The university determined that because it was a religious perspective, it cannot be allowed,” she said.

Asked whether the university should be allowed to reject a high school course that taught that the earth is flat, Monk said “I don’t know,” but then said that it would be “constitutionally OK” for the university to do so, provided that the flat earth was not a religious belief.

Tom Cathey, vice president of the Association of Christian Schools International, said that most public colleges have not challenged the courses taught by his member schools " and he said that was good because increasing numbers of their graduates are going to public higher education, not colleges based on their faith. The primary reason, he said, is cost. Not only are tuition rates lower, but many of the students graduate with grades and test scores such that they qualify for full scholarships, while many Christian colleges can’t offer them a full ride.

“Our kids are coming out of our Christian schools well prepared for any college,” he said.

As to such issues as evolution or other matters of science and the Bible, Cathey said that secular colleges have nothing to worry about. Cathey said that the norm is to teach creationism as correct, but also to teach students about the theory of evolution, even while explaining that the theory is wrong. Still, Cathey maintained, graduates of Christian schools have the ability to succeed in science at secular universities.

David Hawkins, director of public policy and research for the National Association for College Admission Counseling, said that admissions officers encounter disputes over the quality of high school courses on many issues having nothing to do with religion. Disputes like the one in California are rare, he said, but colleges are regularly challenged on their determinations over whether certain high school courses meet minimal standards or should be classified as honors courses.

“What one school calls honors or advanced might be radically different from what another school calls the same thing. So admissions officers need to be able to exercise latitude,” Hawkins said.

Hawkins stressed that this latitude is not admissions officers deciding themselves what they think of a given course. Rather, he said, faculty committees at colleges set standards, and define for admissions officers the skills and knowledge applicants need to have picked up in high school. Admissions standards for high school courses aren’t about keeping students out, but about educational purposes, he said.

Admissions standards for high school courses “are a manifestation of an institution’s mission and send a message to students” about the college, he said. In addition, they tell students “what they need to actually succeed.”

Nassirian said that good standards " even if they upset some would-be applicants " help them at the same time. “This is about about making sure the student isn’t set up for failure,” he said.

Hawkins said that the University of California and other large institutions tend to have “elaborately spelled out” standards, while smaller colleges may be more general and make decisions on a case-by-case basis.

Seth Allen, dean of admission and financial aid at Grinnell College, said that admissions decisions are so holistic that “one factor typically does not drive a decision,” and that “even if we think a student has not quite met a recommended program of study, that student may still be admissible.” In terms of meeting course requirements, he said that “unless we have a reason to analyze an individual course ... we would simply take the course at face value.”

If there is some indication that a course doesn’t fulfill the kind of requirements Grinnell has, Allen said, “we would be concerned about the student’s ability to be successful at Grinnell more than not meeting the recommended program of study.” So if “other indicators demonstrated strong mastery and an ability to be successful in an academically rigorous environment, there would be little impact on admissibility.” Especially in cases where only one kind of biology or history course is offered, he said, “the overriding factor would be making a judgment about whether the student could successfully overcome the knowledge gap, and not discounting the student because of what the school made available.”

Religion obviously is a complicating factor at public institutions. “The public university is a curious animal,” Nassirian said. “It has an obligation to prepare students and to academic integrity,” but it also is in some respects “a political institution, supported by all of the taxpayers of the state.” As such, he said, it’s key " especially if more students at Christian high schools apply to public institutions " to convey any objections to their courses in ways that show “no disrespect for their religious beliefs.”

Hawkins agreed, and said that the job for universities was to affirm the right of religious high schools to make their educational and spiritual choices, while not backing down on public higher education’s rights either. “The right to self-expression and freedom of religion extends to the point where a high school can operate in whatever fashion it deems necessary to achieve its mission, but there is no guarantee that that right or privilege extends to infringe on the autonomy of another institution, in this case the University of California.”
 

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