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Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Mon 28 Jul, 2008 06:34 pm
wandel, I remember an article, I believe it was in the National Geographic, about blind insects in the caves of Tennessee. Once sighted, they have evolved their other senses to survive in darkness. To find their food and to protect themselves from their predators.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Mon 28 Jul, 2008 07:11 pm
Interesting about the insects, C.I. This is similar to what Myers is saying about blind and sighted varieties of Astyanax fish.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Mon 28 Jul, 2008 11:44 pm
The lack of expressions of certain genes in animals possibly caused by the expression of others is the thesis of Sean Carrolls Book "The Making of the Fittest". He discusses many other expressions of genes in animals. His first was the discussion of the "Ice Fish" which , as an adaptation to ultra cold water that had appeared in th SOuthern oceans in the last 15 million years. The ancestral icefish had lost hemoglobin in its blood and the genetic expression is seen in the fish's DNA. The hemoglobin was lost in favor of a blood that had an increase in a natural sugar which acts as an Antifreeze. The adaptation for cold water life includes larger gills, scaless skin that allows direct absorption of oxygen , and some other expressions. All from the turning off of one gene and the turning on of another. The "Fossil" genes that serve as triggers for hemoglobin, are still seen as relict non functioning sections of genes in the DNA while those that express for the "antifreeze" are seen as active sections.

The interesting thing is the adaptation to a gradually changing environment since the Miocene. This change is confirmed by stratigraphic analysis of the sediments in the southern oceans as the continents have moved about, opening the ocean to flow of supercooled water.

CArrols use of fossil gene , as a term for how many of these expressions are followed in an organisms evolution, is just as valid as those fossils seen in sediment. The only thing is that sed fossils cannot be analyzed for how the dead animals physiology had changed as an adaptive measure.


THe Discovery Institutes plea for its own "explanations" about the cave fish cannot be shown to occur , no matter how they try to dress that pig. In typical ID/Creationist fashion, they talk of limited expressions being all that can happen in natural selection, and that evolution cannot explain new organism groups, is just as naive as the CreationisT belief in a "Flood". The dicovery of the genetic links to morphological changes is rather profound and develops a sound mechanism for gradual change as environments undergo rmajor changes through time.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Tue 29 Jul, 2008 04:22 am
How can there be such a thing as a "lack" of features in an organism. The organism is what it is. "Lack" is anthropomorphic.

And what is "ultra cold" water in nature?

And what does "lost hemoglobin in its blood" mean?

And how could genetic expression not be seen in the fish's DNA.

Quote:
The adaptation for cold water life includes larger gills, scaless skin that allows direct absorption of oxygen , and some other expressions.


Would anyone have noticed if that had read-

Quote:
The adaptation for cold water life includes smaller gills, thick scaly skin that allows direct absorption of oxygen , and some other expressions.


What's all this about genes turning on and off in nature.

Quote:
The interesting thing is the adaptation to a gradually changing environment since the Miocene.


Obviously. If there was no adaptation there would be no organism to screw a fee out of.

"Opening the oceans"!! Jeeze. "Supercooled water"!! Good grief.

Quote:
In typical ID/Creationist fashion, they talk of limited expressions being all that can happen in natural selection, and that evolution cannot explain new organism groups, is just as naive as the CreationisT belief in a "Flood".


Obviously. If they are naive they can be expected to think two naive things can't they? The sentence is incoherent.

What a bunch of simplistic, anthropomorphic stupidities dressed up as pop pseudo-science that post is fm. It's teleology running wild.

I feel sorry for US kids if that is the sort of stuff being brayed at them and their objections not being listened to.

Quote:
wandel, I remember an article, I believe it was in the National Geographic, about blind insects in the caves of Tennessee. Once sighted, they have evolved their other senses to survive in darkness. To find their food and to protect themselves from their predators.


Every other surviving organism might have that sort of thing said about it.

No wonder parents in England are beating at the doors of Church schools and raising property prices in the vicinity of them.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Tue 29 Jul, 2008 04:26 am
fm wrote-

Quote:
The dicovery of the genetic links to morphological changes is rather profound and develops a sound mechanism for gradual change as environments undergo rmajor changes through time.


Translated into English that means that fm is "rather profound" himself. I doubt it has any other meaning.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Tue 29 Jul, 2008 05:54 am
I wanted to edit my post to provide information about the Icefish location. However, the edit wouldnt go through (Maybe spendi posted something and it jerely preventyed me from using the edit feature).

The icefish's primary (and only) digs are in the seas just around Bouvet Island (at least thats the present limits since noone has gone after its range information). Bouvet Islan is just about 300mi N of the ANtarctic Circle at a point 1600 Mi Southwest of Cape of Good Hope and 3000 mi E of CApe Horn. Although known since the late 1700's, Bouvet Island hasd only been mapped in 1928 by the Norvegia expedition. That expedition had its main mission to establish a supplies cache for crews of shipwrecked whale ships. The expeditions biologist , Ditlef Rustad had captured a few of these little fish and was amazed at how they appeared translucent . He named them "white crocodile fish" and examined their colorless blood (which was mostly depleted in hemoglobin).

The fish, a subspecies of NOTOTHENOIDS (ARCTIC CODS) , had gradually developed this antifreeze system in a manner that coincided neatly with the breakup of Antarctica fromSouth America . The breakup , according to my plate tectonics notebook, began to occur about 30 MYA. The first fossils of the arctic cods show up in sediments of 25 mya and the development of the icefish (as interpreted from counting backwards on gene segments) was about 12 mya. The entire sequence appears nicely fit within the tectonic history of the area. It clearly shows that icefish developed as an adaptation to an environmental challenge.
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Tue 29 Jul, 2008 06:13 am
The following article is a good example of why ID is not just an academic discussion, but a real problem in society. Intentional misunderstandings of evolution and acceptance of ID are not just errors in biology, they are essentially rejections of science itself. They are the symptoms of a pattern of though which is ultimately destructive to civilization and humanity (in my opinion).

Quote:
DON'T KNOW MUCH BIOLOGY
By Jerry Coyne

Suppose we asked a group of Presidential candidates if they believed in the existence of atoms, and a third of them said "no"? That would be a truly appalling show of scientific illiteracy, would it not? And all the more shocking coming from those who aspire to run a technologically sophisticated nation.

Yet something like this happened a week ago during the Republican presidential debate. When the moderator asked nine candidates to raise their hands if they "didn't believe in evolution," three hands went into the air?-those of Senator Sam Brownback, Governor Mike Huckabee, and Representative Tom Tancredo. Although I am a biologist who has found himself battling creationism frequently throughout his professional life, I was still mortified. Because there is just as much evidence for the fact of evolution as there is for the existence of atoms, anyone raising his hand must have been grossly misinformed.

I don't know whether to attribute the show of hands to the candidates' ignorance of the mountain of evidence for evolution, or to a cynical desire to pander to a public that largely rejects evolution (more than half of Americans do). But I do know that it means that our country is in trouble. As science becomes more and more important in dealing with the world's problems, Americans are falling farther and farther behind in scientific literacy. Among citizens of industrialized nations, Americans rank near the bottom in their understanding of math and science. Over half of all Americans don't know that the Earth orbits the Sun once a year, and nearly half think that humans once lived, Flintstone-like, alongside dinosaurs.

Now maybe evolutionary biology isn't going to propel America into the forefront of world science, but creationism (and its gussied-up descendant "Intelligent Design") is not just a campaign against evolution?-it's a campaign against science itself and the scientific method. By pretending that evolution is on shaky ground, and asserting that religion can contribute to our understanding of nature, creationists confuse people about the very form and character of scientific evidence. This confusion can only hurt our ability to make rational judgments about important social issues, like global warming, that involve science.

Senator Brownback showed this poisonous mixture of scientific ignorance and religious dogmatism in a May 31 op-ed piece in The New York Times ("What I Think About Evolution"), written to clarify why he raised his hand to dissent from Darwinism. The first thing that's clear is that Brownback displays a fundamental misunderstanding of evolutionary biology. He claims that there is "no one single theory of evolution," citing punctuated equilibrium as an alternative to Darwinism. (He's apparently implying that there might be something dubious about evolution because there's a multiplicity of theories).

Well, he is wrong here for two reasons. First, the hypothesis of punctuated equilibrium is no longer widely accepted, and second (as its proponent Stephen Jay Gould repeatedly averred), it was conceived as an expansion of Darwinism, not an alternative to it. There is only one going theory of evolution, and it is this: organisms evolved gradually over time and split into different species, and the main engine of evolutionary change was natural selection. Sure, some details of these processes are unsettled, but there is no argument among biologists about the main claims.

Brownback also presents the familiar creationist misrepresentation of evolution as a chance process, claiming that "man . . . is merely the chance product of random mutations." He doesn't seem to know that while mutations occur by chance, natural selection, which builds complex bodies by saving the most adaptive mutations, emphatically does not. Like all species, man is a product of both chance and lawfulness.

Lifting another claim from the creationist handbook, Brownback limits the ability of evolution to making only "the small changes that take place within a species." That's just false. Yes, evolution makes small changes, but over time they add up to big ones. As the old proverb goes, take care of the pennies and the pounds will take care of themselves. The evolution of amphibians from fish, reptiles from amphibians, birds from reptiles, and humans from apelike ancestors?-all of these are amply documented in the fossil record. For decades, creationists have lovingly perpetuated this myth, that evolution can make small changes but not big ones, oblivious to the mounting evidence, not just from the fossil record, but from genetics, biogeography, embryology, and geology.

What is this evidence? First, there are the evolutionary changes, big and small, that we see occurring over eons as we dig fossils out of deeper and deeper layers of rock. There is also the discovery of fossil "missing links" that demonstrate the common ancestry of diverse groups (for example, between reptiles and mammals). Organisms also show developmental features that can be understood only by assuming they evolved from ancestors that were quite different. (Human embryos, for example, develop a coat of hair in their seventh month in utero, which is then shed before birth. It makes no sense except as a remnant of a permanent coat of hair that developed in embryos of our primate ancestors).

Evolution is also shown by the presence of vestigial organs, like the nonfunctional pelvis of whales and the tiny, useless wings of the flightless kiwi bird, that attest to the descent of species from others in which those organs were functional. And there is the distribution of organisms on the Earth, such as the absence of indigenous mammals and amphibians on oceanic islands that nevertheless harbor a plethora of birds and insects?-a pattern that can be understood only as a result of dispersal and evolution. Finally, there is ample evidence for natural selection producing evolutionary adaptations, ranging from antibiotic resistance in bacteria to the evolution of stouter beaks in birds that eat hard seeds.

Senator Brownback, along with his two dissenting colleagues, really should be forced to answer a rather more embarrassing question: who is responsible for their being so misinformed? Where did they learn the so-called "problems" with evolution: at their mothers' knees, or in Sunday school? Or perhaps from reading books; and, if so, what books, and who recommended them? Doesn't a public servant have a responsibility to stay informed across a wide spectrum of topics and issues?

Given how Brownback plays fast and loose with the facts, or ignores them altogether, it's fair to ask why the New York Times went along with publishing misleading statements about evolution. Doesn't somebody at the Times keep an eye out for gross errors of fact on the editorial pages? Brownback is surely entitled to say that science can't tell us how we should behave, but is he also entitled to misrepresent the central principle of biology? An opinion is an opinion, but it's not a very good one when based on "facts" that just aren't so.

Brownback's misunderstanding of science is more dangerous than his ignorance of evolution, and should be disconcerting to educators and parents hoping to see their children educated properly. He rejects evolution if "it means assenting to an exclusively materialistic, deterministic vision of the world that holds no place for a guiding intelligence." Using that criterion he'd have to reject all of science, including physics and chemistry!

Science simply doesn't deal with hypotheses about a guiding intelligence, or supernatural phenomena like miracles, because science is the search for rational explanations of natural phenomena. We don't reject the supernatural merely because we have an overweening philosophical commitment to materialism; we reject it because entertaining the supernatural has never helped us understand the natural world. Alchemy, faith healing, astrology, creationism?-none of these perspectives has advanced our understanding of nature by one iota. So Brownback's proposal to bring faith to the table of science is misguided: "As science continues to explore the details of man's origin, faith can do its part as well." What part? Where are faith's testable predictions or falsifiable hypotheses about human origins?

Brownback's ill-conceived accommodationism between science and faith extends to the notion of truth itself. He accepts the common view that "science seeks to discover the truths about the nature of the created order and how it operates, whereas faith deals with spiritual truths." Nearly all scientists would object to the word "created" in this sentence, but in any case it's doubtful whether any "truth" (in the sense of something that conforms to fact) can be gained through spirituality alone.

Scientific truths are facts agreed on by all observers using scientific methods. The formula for water is H2O, the Earth is 4.6 billion years old, and the speed of light is 186,000 miles per second. These are matters that can be verified empirically by any scientist, be she Muslim, Catholic, or Hindu.

But what is "spiritual truth"? It is simply what someone believes to be true, without any need for evidence. One man's spiritual truth is another man's spiritual lie. Jesus may be the son of God to Christians, but not to Muslims. The Inuit creation story begins with a pair of giants who chopped off their daughter's fingers, which became seals, whales, walrus, and salmon. There have been thousands of religions, and thousands of religious "spiritual truths," but many of them conflict with each other, and some of them conflict with science.

Many Americans, for example, have been taught by their religion to believe that the world is less than 10,000 years old. The Inuits are wrong too: whales didn't come from detached digits but from land mammals. And those "spiritual truths" that aren't palpably false are systematically immune to challenge or rational investigation. There is simply no way to find out of them is really "true", just as we can't know which religion, if any, is "true". Is there any need, then, to speak of spiritual truths? Shouldn't we just call them "beliefs based on faith alone?" When "faith does its part," then, what does it contribute to our understanding of the way things are?

Most ominous is Brownback's absolute, dead certainty about the nature of the world and the reason why we're here. (He gets it all from the Bible, of course).

"The unique and special place of each and every person in creation is a fundamental truth that must be safeguarded."

"I firmly believe that each human person, regardless of circumstance, was willed into being and made for a purpose."

". . the process of creation?-and indeed life today?-is sustained by the hand of God in a manner known fully only to him."

And this:

"While no stone should be left unturned in seeking to discover the nature of man's origins, we can say with conviction that we know with certainty at least part of the outcome. Man was not an accident and reflects an image and likeness unique in the created order. Those aspects of evolutionary theory compatible with this truth are a welcome addition to human knowledge. Aspects of these theories that undermine this truth, however, should be firmly rejected as atheistic theology posing as science."

Whether he knows it or not, Brownback's forthright declarations, denying any possibility that empirical matters of fact might differ from those assumed by his creed, amount to nothing less than a rejection of the whole institution of science. Who is "we", and where did "our" conviction and certainty come from? Would Brownback believe these "spiritual truths" if he hadn't been taught them as a child, or brought up in the United States instead of China?

According to Brownback, we should reject scientific findings if they conflict with our faith, but accept them if they're compatible. But the scientific evidence says that humans are big-brained, highly conscious apes that began evolving on the African savannah four million years ago. Are we supposed to reject this as "atheistic theology" (an oxymoron if there ever was one)? The religious conviction that "man" is unique in ways that really matter is compelling in many ways?-surely our language, art, music, and science itself are unique products of life on this planet?-but holding our uniqueness to be a dogma immune to scientific analysis is an arrogant, and ultimately foolhardy, declaration of authority.

This attitude has enormous political?-and educational?-implications. What happens if scientific truth conflicts with a politician's "spiritual truth"? This is not a theoretical problem, but a real one, as we see in debates about stem-cell research, abortion, genetic engineering, and global warming. Ignorance about evolution may be widespread, but it's not nearly as dangerous as dogmatic certainty about the real world based on faith alone.


article
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Tue 29 Jul, 2008 06:39 am
Maybe we should all stop posting in case we prevent fm being able to edit his hopeless efforts.

Quote:
The icefish's primary (and only) digs are in the seas just around Bouvet Island (at least thats the present limits since noone has gone after its range information).


Considering all the things that have been "gone after" (read talk yourself into a pork fest) it must be that this creature is pretty damn boring.

A biologist was "amazed" was he? Did he do any ooing and aahing fm with his eyebrows going up? Is he amazed that birds fly or penguins walk funny. What utter unscientific dross.

How on earth can their blood have been "depleted"? Were it "enriched" they would have been extinct one presumes.

And the word "capture" is usually reserved for large fierce beasts and not little fish scooped up in nets.

Why do you abbreviate "million years ago" and then take all that bandwidth to tell us where Bouvet Island is located when any of us interested can Google it up. That's contradictory fm.

Why do you keep arguing with New Earthers when there are none on this thread?

Why do you keep addressing us as if we are little children?
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Tue 29 Jul, 2008 06:46 am
fm-

How do you avoid reading my posts if someone else quotes them which I could easily get someone to do if I could be arsed messing about with your foolishness.

Scroll through I suppose but you could have done that with the original.

It is well known that shutting your eyes and ears is an admission of having lost the argument.

How on earth did you get a senior post in the educational system?
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Tue 29 Jul, 2008 09:23 am
Jerry Coyne is an American professor of biology, known for his commentary on the intelligent design debate. He is currently a professor at the University of Chicago in the Department of Ecology and Evolution.

Which means he has an axe to grind.

And he does just that in ros's post which has no bearing on the thread title except insofar as he asserts that ID is a "gussied-up"
descendant of Creationism which it isn't.

His assertion is a mere verbal trick to facilitate him attacking ID by attacking Creationism. Any literate person will thus treat his spiel with some suspicion. Associating groups of people with other groups easier to villify is a well tried propaganda technique.

As there are no Creationists on this thread I am at a loss to understand why ros thought fit to post as he has done.

Quote:
Suppose we asked a group of Presidential candidates if they believed in the existence of atoms, and a third of them said "no"? That would be a truly appalling show of scientific illiteracy, would it not?


Mr Coyne makes play in belief in atoms. Atom is a word given to the unknown and unknowable item which creates certain effects in instruments. As physics has progressed it has become apparent that the "atom" has disappeared from view. It is now expressed mathematically. The common view of such things, which is all a biologist can be expected to have I suppose, is a long time out of date. Mr Coyne is thus addressing the common people, and not the scientific community, and playing upon their ignorance, understandable as that is. Which is another reason why his polemic ought to have no place on a science thread. Even one where few scientists participate.

Quote:
And all the more shocking coming from those who aspire to run a technologically sophisticated nation.


That is a slippery way of saying that only scientifically literate people should be running the show. The known absence of scientifically literate people from elected positions shows clearly that they have been selected out in the democratic process so why Coyne should assert that he is shocked is really inexplicable from an evolutionary perspective. A scientifically literate person might wonder why scientifically literate people have been selected out in the democratic process but he wouldn't dispute that they had been selected out and he certainly wouldn't be shocked by any evidence that they had been.

Decoded and deconstructed on the unconscious level Coyne is shocked that a totalitarian scientific consensus, with him at its head, is not running the show.

And I'll bet money he can't even explain lingerie shops despite him having some experience of their advantages and disadvantages.



And no-one has asked a group of Presidential candidates if they believe in the existence of atoms (effects in instruments). It has been merely supposed that they have been asked.

And a modern theoretical physicist would have asked what was meant by the question. And if the questioner expressed surprise at such a reply our physicist could be forgiven for thinking that the suprise denoted a "truly appalling show of scientific illiteracy." (sic).

And why is scientific illiteracy appalling. Some people think that there are less than ten scientifically literate people on earth. One or two of whom, if they can be bothered, might like to out Coyne the Coynes of this world. And can justify it. If he can bray his superiority over us oiks then anybody else is entitled to bray their's over him.

Aren't they? Well ros--aren't they?

Had I been writing the drivel, rowing my boat ashore scientifically, I would have said "truly appalling show of scientific literacy". By Coyne's own argument it would be a brilliant show of scientific illiteracy"-- "would it not"? If not knowing what an atom is is actually scientifically illiterate which Coyne assumes it is.

And if he goes on, as he does, to equate this unbelief in atoms (not their effects in instruments) with unbelief in evolution and that the unbelief in either shows scientific illiteracy then he is in a tough spot as scientifically literate people don't believe in the existence of atoms in the commonsensical way Coyne does and thus his logic calls into question a belief in evolution. His having equated the two beliefs.

That is one very stupid introduction to an essay ros. Especially when it is remembered that it will have been pored over and perfected before being released upon the world of stevedores, gas pumpers, sex workers, mortgage consultants, road builders, car salesmen etc etc etc. all of whose illiteracy is assumed by the author.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Wed 30 Jul, 2008 11:29 am
KANSAS UPDATE

Quote:
Once again, control of the education board is in the balance
(By LAURA BAUER, The Kansas City Star, July 29, 2008)

This may have a familiar ring to it, but several seats on the Kansas Board of Education are up for election and control of the 10-member panel is at stake.

Again.

It was just two years ago that we were in a similar spot with the board that oversees statewide education policy. The last time, the board was controlled by conservatives but went to the moderates after the election. Control of the board has fluctuated for several years.

Will the teeter-totter of control continue this year?

"Yeah, I worry about it changing again," said Steve Case, a science education professor at the University of Kansas and chairman of the state science standards writing committee. "I worry about going through the fight again."

The fight has often centered on how evolution is taught in the classroom. Conservatives on the board have pushed for standards casting doubt on evolution, and moderates have said intelligent design does not belong in the science classroom.

In 2005, with conservatives in control, the board passed standards critical of evolution. When moderates took over in 2007, the standards were changed back. It was the fourth time in eight years the science standards changed.

Five of the board's seats, including the 2nd District, which represents a large portion of Johnson County, are up for election this time with only one incumbent in the running. That is at least four new faces on the board.

The two 2nd District candidates ?- Brandon Kenig, 22, and Mary Ca Ralstin, 54 ?- say they want to keep the science standards how they are.

"I saw what's gone on the last eight years," said Ralstin, of Shawnee. "I don't want Kansas to be the laughingstock of the nation anymore."

Kenig, also of Shawnee, says he does not think creationism should be taught in the science classroom, but he is not opposed to the subject being addressed in a different classroom.

"I don't have a problem with a class that would examine all origins of life theories," he said. "Have it be a more objective take … and not have it be slanted one way or the other."

The winner of next week's primary faces Democrat Sue Storm in November.

The past year and a half has been rather quiet ?- no major hubbubs, with a board controlled by moderates, 6-4.

Some say the makeup of the board is not necessarily a factor, though.

"Perhaps we're working on less controversial issues," said conservative board member Kathy Martin, the only incumbent running this year. She supported science standards critical of evolution.

"We all have the same goals, to make sure our students receive the best possible education," Martin said. "At times we just disagree on what type of opportunities and curriculum will reach that."

The current board chairman says he is optimistic that the panel will continue to operate smoothly even after new members are elected. He does not see candidates stumping for special interests and thinks that the hiring of education commissioner Alexa Posny ?- whom he calls "top notch" ?- has brought a new sense of progress and productivity to the board.

"I think everybody believes we're on the right track now," said Bill Wagnon, a 12-year member who is not running for re-election. "New people will come into a system that is ongoing and won't want to change it. That's my optimism."

Some, though, say when eyes and ears are not on the state board races, that is when surprises come. And people often do not pay as much attention to races lower on the ballot, as the board race is.

Case said the state board is one of the most overlooked bodies in Kansas.

"Most people don't know who their state board representative is," Case said.

Sue Gamble, current 2nd District board member who is running for the state Senate, said people need to study candidates for the state board and know all their positions.

"I think it is always possible that a representative of a small interest group can be voted into office if the public isn't paying attention," she said. "People should be paying attention to all races but particularly down-ballot races like state board."
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Wed 30 Jul, 2008 01:16 pm
wande-

Is Ms Gamble qualified to say what people need and to tell them what they should do?

And I feel a bit sorry for the previous education commissioner if it is true that the new one has brought a new sense of progress and productivity to the board.

Do you know the evidence for the new one being "top notch"? You are always on about evidence.

What was said about the previous commissioner when s/he was appointed? I hope it wasn't the s/he was "top notch" and had brought a new sense of progress and productivity to the board.

You're all over the place.
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Wed 30 Jul, 2008 03:28 pm
wandeljw wrote:
KANSAS UPDATE
Quote:

"I saw what's gone on the last eight years," said Ralstin, of Shawnee. "I don't want Kansas to be the laughingstock of the nation anymore."

Too late.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Wed 30 Jul, 2008 03:34 pm
SAying that they want the "best education opportunities for the children" and, in the same breath supporting an anti-science approach is what Kansas has been entertaining us with in the last few years. I hope that when the Louisiana case gets to court the state ed committee will be watching. That is of course, unless they wish to have even more comedy routines designed after them.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Wed 30 Jul, 2008 04:48 pm
Dee-diddi-de-dee,
diddie de -dee-dee
Come on you auntie-ideares
Get washed to sea.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Wed 30 Jul, 2008 05:35 pm
Hey fm-

If we are closely related to monkeys and our DNA is nearly like their's how come monkeys never learned how to do the misssionary position?

It isn't as if it would take a lot of thinking up is it?
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Wed 30 Jul, 2008 07:17 pm
spendius wrote:
Hey fm-

If we are closely related to monkeys and our DNA is nearly like their's how come monkeys never learned how to do the misssionary position?

It isn't as if it would take a lot of thinking up is it?


spendi, Monkeys are quite intelligent animals. Why don't you go show them how to do it; they learn quickly.
0 Replies
 
Joe Nation
 
  1  
Wed 30 Jul, 2008 07:50 pm
spendius wrote:
Hey fm-

If we are closely related to monkeys and our DNA is nearly like their's how come monkeys never learned how to do the misssionary position?

It isn't as if it would take a lot of thinking up is it?


It could be two things 1) Maybe they have nothing to talk about.

or 2) If I was a female and had to make the shangalangadingdong with the likes of you, I'd like you to be somewhere where I didn't have to set eyes on you.

Joe(dip da dip dah dip)Nation
0 Replies
 
Diest TKO
 
  1  
Wed 30 Jul, 2008 08:00 pm
You guys fell for Spendi's trap: You assumed he was telling the truth.

Monkeys DO have missionary sex. In fact, they have sex in any way possible.

video here: http://video.aol.com/video-detail/monkeys-teach-us-missionary-monkey-sex/587316138

http://dlynnwaldron.com/BonoboGallery/pictures/missionary.jpg

T
K
O
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Thu 31 Jul, 2008 03:14 am
A bit of light relief. I'm fed up of pompous po-faced know-alls.

Fancy getting Joe fantasising.

Thanks TKO.
0 Replies
 
 

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