Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

I guess you'll never understand the thrill of having watched Kirby Puckett in all his glory. Talk about a unalthletic looking athlete.

As for Rugby vs Football, I'll agree---I usta play Rugby. I played Football in high school, and intermural Rugby in College and club Rugby after that. I liked Rugby better. But alas I've gotten too old and my balls are no longer made of leather.

Basketball---I grew up in Indiana---basketball is serious business in Indiana. Badmouth basketball in Indiana and they'll beat the cr*p outta ya, and throw ya in the Ohio River toward Kentucky so they can have their turn beating the cr*p outta ya.

Rap

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Yeah - I have to admit that Kirby Pucket is pretty incredible - especially given the fact that he pretty much carried the Twins - what a utility player- I mean I can't really think of anyone else who played on that team -right off-hand.

But I'd much rather watch Derek Jeter Laughing

- even though I admit he's always been surrounded by other talented - maybe even more talented players- NY is a big market - and Spendius - he DOES NOT have a big butt. He's grace personified..I love to watch him hit and run...

Wandl - to answer your question - I don't know if I think it's necessary. My teaching experience is probably deceptive and not representative of the state of things in the country as a whole. I taught in NJ within commuting distance of Philadelphia and in Chapel Hill NC public schools the majority of the time I taught in the US - so our population was pretty middle upper class and sophisticated - there weren't a lot of Bible thumpers in our school. I don't remember it ever being an issue to tell you the truth- either in terms of a kid wanting to testify in terms of his or her religion in the classroom or in assignments and most especially not in terms of teachers introducing it into the classroom.
As I said - most of my educator friends are non-believers- I'm trying to think of even one who made an issue of his or her religion at work and I can't.

Sometimes I wonder where all these fundamentalists are hiding - but as I said - I don't live down south - and when I did I lived in Chapel Hill, NC which is pretty much the antithesis of what one thinks of when one thinks of the Bible belt. And I've never lived in the midwest - I've always lived on the east coast - and within commuting distance of a big city.

The only place I did live where I can picture it maybe being an issue is Maine - and I didn't work while I was there - I was at home with my kids- so I don't know...

Shira - I don't know how to debate with someone who says 'that's weird' to something I explain that has happened to me or that I have perceived. What do you say to that - except- 'well it wasn't weird to me'
It's what I experienced. What else is there to debate after that.

And Spendius - thanks for all the Macbeth quotes - you see - they all can be related back to the bible- I knew it...

I think whether or not someone becomes an English major yes, probably does depend (unfortunately) on whether or not their teacher encourages it or not - I mean would you want to major in something your teachers told you you sucked at?
Like my chemistry teacher - oh my god - what a prick. I used to know the whole frigging forumula and then (because we weren't allowed to use calculators) I might miss the final answer by 1/1000 or something and he'd take full credit off - forget it. He turned me off to science - totally. Then later I worked in an earth science classroom modifying tests and assignments for kids and that teacher was spectacular. She made me wish I had given myself a chance at it - or that I had had a teacher in highschool who made it come alive for me like she did.

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rap wrote-

Quote:

Basketball---I grew up in Indiana---basketball is serious business in Indiana. Badmouth basketball in Indiana and they'll beat the cr*p outta ya, and throw ya in the Ohio River toward Kentucky so they can have their turn beating the cr*p outta ya.

You have misinterpreted me. I think basketball players are fine specimens of manhood and the game they play is the most interesting and exciting sport that mankind has so far had the intelligence to evolve.

I can watch it for hours and all the players are heroic athletes in my book.

I'll even collect their autographs and have pictures of them on my bedroom wall if necessary.

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"If necessar?" What kind of cop-out statement is that? LOL

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rap wrote-

Quote:

But alas I've gotten too old and my balls are no longer made of leather.

You shouldn't really frighten the young lads with that sort of negative spin rap. Why can't you let them find out in the same timeframe you have.

Everybody likes a nice surprise.

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aidan wrote-

Quote:

I mean would you want to major in something your teachers told you you sucked at?

For sure if she was a New England prim schoolmistress starting into the pink chubby phase and had been looking into esoteric philosophies of late with a view to exploring the possibilities inherent in the range lingerie shops are able to envisage.

Why not? I would have a certificate and a salary suitable to reflect its magnificence and I can't see it being all that much of a strain to pass the exam.

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Actually-- pulling the naturalistic fallacy gambit is not unlike, in its motivations, the "you have misinterpreted me" trick.

What this dinner-party ploy provides is an opportunity to re-explain what had been said previously, often in the same words, and to re-impress the other guests all over again without advancing the argument.

I should know. I have deployed it often enough.

It doesn't work in pubs though. Not the one I go in I mean. There's nothing G.E, Moore knew that they don't know in my pub that's worth knowing.

That's what Dylan meant with his "useless, pointless knowledge" line with the "old folk's home and the college" rhyme.

Hey--check out my latest Acronym if you are up for a belly laugh.

Have you never tried Acronyms Mr S.? It's a bit like playing footsie under the table with the wife of a bloke who has been misinterpreted and is explaining it all over again in order to make it clear.

fm daren't go on Acronyms.

ros is the only AIDser who goes on TRIVIA (where it's at) and he only goes on the very simplest, and not to put too fine a point on it, stupidest and most boring threads.

Clary stalks the Acronym game. And firefly. And aidan. And Mame sometimes. She's lippy is Mame but what lips.

Some blokes go on as well but they are of no account.

Blokes don't interest me at all. I'm a bloke. I know everything there is to know about blokes from the inside.

I've read the honest confessions and they fit with my experiences.

Blokes are like tyre levers and tin openers. Useful at times but not interesting.

Is Bumski as famous as that broad who is reputed to have flashed it in Thelma and Louise?

I haven't seen it myself. I think I must have blinked.

They did go off a cliff at the end though didn't they?

You have to have a happy ending they say. It's in the rules.

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spendius wrote:

I have explained the naturalistic fallacy to aidan's satisfaction, and that's no mean feat. So far, I think, you have only referred to it.

Not true. I specifically pointed out that I was referring to the idea of something being "natural" does not automatically make it "right" or "moral". It's related to the older version, but is more specific. You constantly allude to it when you try to say how conducive various actions are to "evolution" (and therefore we should like them).

Concerning Dembski, you really aren't getting the joke Wink

. It's not funny if I have to explain it, so I won't, but both farmerman and I have gone into the basics already - he's the 'specified complexity' guy, although he's said all kinds of other inane things.

Excellent diversion into sports for no good reason. (psst, baseball has vague origins and precursors with similar pitching around the same time that cricket developed more modern pitching. Before (in cricket), the ball was actually bowled, rolling along the ground the entire time, less violent/macho) Naturally I don't really care, but it's funny to watch you intellectually masturbate all over the place with your superiority fantasies Wink

. Oh, and don't deny that that's what it is, you're having all kinds of fun making fun of Americans Very Happy

.

spendius wrote:

Well- you see c.i.---I think that accusing an American dinner party guest of using the naturalitic fallacy is a ploy. It relies on the guest being unable to admit that he doesn't know what it is because that implies he's not as well educated as the accuser. And thus the accuser wins the point. The accuser doesn't need to know himself what it is or this ploy to work.

And you'd be wrong and have a terrible memory. I listed it because it's actually rather common and easy to look up. You could also refer to essentially the same concept as the "Appeal to Nature". If we'd like to get snitty and compare prevalence, "naturalistic fallacy" and "appeal to nature" get 70K combined google hits, while the very common "begging the question" gets 380K. The similarly common "argument from ignorance" gets 56K (the latin version, excluding the results containing the english one, gets 138K).

Point is, I was only listing a fairly common fallacy because you were using it.

Oh, but by all means, pretend that I'm an elitist. Rationalizations are your specialty!

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aidan wrote:

Shira - I don't know how to debate with someone who says 'that's weird' to something I explain that has happened to me or that I have perceived. What do you say to that - except- 'well it wasn't weird to me'
It's what I experienced. What else is there to debate after that.

Well, what I said was, "I still find this rather strange" in response to you disagreeing with farmerman's estimation of spendius's communication skills, which essentially summarizes as my own: incoherently strewn-together attempts at literary wit with direct (and coherent!) sentences when he's not trying to badmouth something.

In other words, I still (as in I thought it before as well) think it's strange that you think spendius communicates terribly well, and I explained why right after that: you don't seem to have much better of a track record than we do in figuring out his rants.

So uh... I suppose you respond to it by disagreeing and saying that you understand him more often than us... or you agree but have chosen a different label... or something.

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Why do you find it strange that I might enjoy or appreciate something you don't? We're two different people - I think that's to be expected- or that's the way I look at it anyway.
I wasn't referring to the way Spendius communicates when I referenced that you said you found something I said to be weird.
I don't understand Spendius sometimes - I do admit...but I think he's somewhat obscure on purpose- so I've gotten to the point that I don't even bother with it. I figure if he cared about being understood, he'd make it understandable, and otherwise I don't feel that I'm beholden to spend the time puzzling it out. I really don't have that sort of patience, but I don't understand a lot of people sometimes and that's fine with me. If I care enough about it, I might ask, but otherwise I just let it go by especially when there are two pages to wade through and try to remember. But I also don't let the fact that I sometimes don't get it overshadow the fact that sometimes I do and it's funny and enjoyable.
No one has to be absolutely perfect in my book, you know...

What I was referring to was what I'd perceived as differences in communication in England and the US and you said, ' That's weird, I hadn't noticed that - and you must live in this or that sort of neighborhood, or part of the country or whatever. But it really doesn't matter.
I honestly don't like to argue with people very much - I think it's a middle child syndrome- discord makes me nervous and you know - this is my time off and everything - I don't want to feel all tied up in knots and frustrated and not understood, etc.

Spendius-Prim- huh? Okay - if that's what you want to believe - that these prim New England school marms are scoping out underwear shops - stereotyping again I see.

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I do not believe for a moment that spendi is wierd in a British sort of way, but as a unique persona whether British or otherwise, I find him more interesting than many on a2k. Like aidan, many of us who have participated in threads where spendi spends his time, I found myself enjoying the two way banter even when I find his compositions sometimes lacking in sense.

Frankly, I like spendi as an individual although we have crossed swords several times; I more than he. NO harm done.

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Quote:

"Students may express their beliefs about religion in homework, artwork, and other written and oral assignments free from discrimination based on the religious content of their submissions. Homework and classroom assignments shall be judged by ordinary academic standards of substance and relevance and against other legitimate pedagogical concerns identified by the school district. Students shall not be penalized or rewarded on account of the religious content of their work."

This is in response to Wandel's posts re: the OK bill HB2633. This bill will produce some unforeseen consequences for the entire ed process. I can see the "MAcbeth" issue being telescoped into all sorts of chaotic situations in which kids are just "toying" with the castrated ed standards, not just biology.

It would require court intervention. The courts have always included summary statements in support of its decisions (Dover, AGuillard, Epperson) in which the court yentas that all these cases are a "waste of the cxourts time" yet noone has ever sought to stand in the way of the train of due process.

Im sure that this, like the Texas issue could get adjudicated by summary judgement (if the judges had some real convistions about stemming all this time wasting)

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aidan wrote:

Why do you find it strange that I might enjoy or appreciate something you don't? We're two different people - I think that's to be expected- or that's the way I look at it anyway.

I thought I covered this in my last post :/. Here's the simple answer to your question: I don't.

aidan wrote:

I wasn't referring to the way Spendius communicates when I referenced that you said you found something I said to be weird.

But that was what I was referringn to when quoting you. I bear the responsibility for the mix-up, but now I think I've made my actual position clear.

aidan wrote:

I don't understand Spendius sometimes - I do admit...but I think he's somewhat obscure on purpose- so I've gotten to the point that I don't even bother with it.

That's essentially my entire point and it seems we agree entirely on the basics of the situation. Since I messed up the first time, I'll respost what I originally said but tweaked for clarity.

aidan wrote:

*Farmerman - I completely disagree with your estimation of Spendius' communication skills (for what it's worth).

I still find this rather strange :/. You don't have a much better track record of figuring out what he's saying than we do! Very Happy

aidan wrote:

What I was referring to was what I'd perceived as differences in communication in England and the US and you said, ' That's weird, I hadn't noticed that - and you must live in this or that sort of neighborhood, or part of the country or whatever. But it really doesn't matter.

I'm not sure which reference you're talking about here ("What I was referring to[...]").

My position was that your experiences were much different than mine, so perhaps it had to do with differing localities.

I'm not trying to get rid of you, but if you don't like argument you might not want to reference our conversations in here with somewhat contestable points on some of the main issues of the discussion. Smile

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Here's some all-new silliness related to ID: the Biologic Institute finally released something and I must say, if they're trying to make themselves look really silly, they're succeeding.

http://www.plosone.org/article/fetchArticle.action?articleURI=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0002246

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Quote:

That's essentially my entire point and it seems we agree entirely on the basics of the situation. Since I messed up the first time, I'll respost what I originally said but tweaked for clarity.

aidan wrote:
*Farmerman - I completely disagree with your estimation of Spendius' communication skills (for what it's worth).

No, but we don't (agree on the basics of the situation). While I may not always understand and can even admit that I do believe that Spendius sometimes tries to be obscure - I ENJOY it sometimes.. I think it's funny...I think it adds levity to something that could be very, very dry...and as Farmerman has said has been discussed to Timbuktu and back.
I also enjoy his particular use of language - I understand you don't think he writes well and so now you may think that I have no literary taste- but I happen to like his little eccentricities. I've always enjoyed the odd or different turn of phrase. His writing is filled with them.

I still find this rather strange :/. You don't have a much better track record of figuring out what he's saying than we do! Very Happy

Quote:

aidan wrote:
What I was referring to was what I'd perceived as differences in communication in England and the US and you said, ' That's weird, I hadn't noticed that - and you must live in this or that sort of neighborhood, or part of the country or whatever. But it really doesn't matter.

I'm not sure which reference you're talking about here ("What I was referring to[...]").

My position was that your experiences were much different than mine, so perhaps it had to do with differing localities.

Yes, and then you called it 'weird' ...I guess because it was not YOUR experience. (I'm just doing this to illustrate how useless this back and forth **** gets after one or two rounds- what's the use of arguing something that is not factual and cannot ever be resolved.) What I do think is useful is people expressing their own views and experiences and having the freedom to do that however they see fit- I learn a lot that way-and I think others would participate more too- if they didn't think they'd be censured for not having what might be viewed as innappropriate views or innappropriate form for expressing them by those who think they do.

Quote:

I'm not trying to get rid of you, but if you don't like argument you might not want to reference our conversations in here with somewhat contestable points on some of the main issues of the discussion. [/[/quote]

I don't mind discussing anything with anyone who discusses it with respect. Actually - I think I've been in agreement with most of the contestable points on the main issues of the discussion.
It's just that I also believe Spendius should be able to write and think and express what he sees fit.

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That's the sort of thing which explains why you have difficulties with my posts.

You take everything at face value and expunge from your brains the swirling forces of human endevour which surround such a thing and which are not in the least silly.

And they are all grown ups and they have free choices both in respect of production and consumption.

A different situation exists in schools where the consumers are kids and have no choices and they are having evolution theory (puritan version) shoved up them on the specious argument that evolution can be studied in labs, which it can't, and that it is necessary for biological work which it isn't. And the communities in which it is proposed to do this vary from cities where anonymity, atheism, absence of settled tradition, changing populations etc are the normal order of things accompanied by the usual social problems and rural communities in places such as Montana and Louisiana where social activity is completely different and many say far more satisfactory.

Perhaps urban angst is jealous of rural bliss and wishes to get everybody down into the hole that it's in.

It isn't as if the Biologic people have a monopoly on silliness.

I don't know but I daresay that all the organisations promoting atheism, such as the NCSE and the ACLU, ( as if they are interested in liberty), are megalopolitan in their location and in their staff and are attempting to force city notions onto the food growing regions where biology is a day to day, taken for granted, experience. Darwin joined working class pigeon racing clubs because he valued the insights of men who only knew science without the esoteric labels which are embraced with enthusiasm for reasons that have nothing to do with science and more to do with domination displays in social settings.

When the Biologic Institute is defunct due to everybody agreeing with Mr S. what will he move on to next? Football? Cricket? Pop music? The urge to call people silly won't go away with a victory. Quite the contrary. The urge will be empowered.

Show me research which shows demonstrates that moderate tobacco use in rural settings is as dangerous as heavy smoking in cities.

City people want it all to go their way and they are completely dependent on food none of which they produce themselves.

TV advertising, TV itself in fact, is not only silly but downright dangerous and corrupt in my opinion and my opinion is worth the same as Mr S's.

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Spendi is busy preening and licking his fur. This entire thread is n ow about him. Hes in HOG HEVEN.
Wandel has posted some real stuff that is on topic and is "spendi-free".
I hope this will be my last spendi reference (unless of course, he actually says something worth considering)

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Is that last post not worth considering fm?

Nobody has taken more notice of wande's posts than me.

You're just flinging **** because you feel you're losing the argument.

We know very well what will happen if the "discussion" follows your tramlines. We have had it shown to us by your very self what discussion means to you. viz--you talking and not listening. We might as well wave the white flag if we let that happen.

It's not about fossils--it's about the future. And your justification is that US science goes down the tube without evolution theory in classrooms which idea I don't buy. I think the opposite.

You are talking ancient Greek science with instruments invented by our Christian science. If we are going to get that where are the mixed, naked athletics and the militant isolationism?

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aidan wrote:

No, but we don't (agree on the basics of the situation). While I may not always understand and can even admit that I do believe that Spendius sometimes tries to be obscure - I ENJOY it sometimes.. I think it's funny...I think it adds levity to something that could be very, very dry...and as Farmerman has said has been discussed to Timbuktu and back.

Even if I agreed with that, it's not what I was referring to, still. It has nothing to do with your personal preferences for spendius's lack of literary talent. Nothing!

aidan wrote:

I also enjoy his particular use of language - I understand you don't think he writes well and so now you may think that I have no literary taste- but I happen to like his little eccentricities. I've always enjoyed the odd or different turn of phrase. His writing is filled with them.

I enjoy odd turns of phrase, too, when they aren't clearly attempting to make up for something else or utilized in an obscuring way when attempting to denigrate others.

aidan wrote:

Yes, and then you called it 'weird' ...I guess because it was not YOUR experience. (I'm just doing this to illustrate how useless this back and forth **** gets after one or two rounds- what's the use of arguing something that is not factual and cannot ever be resolved.)

Greater understanding. You were generalizing about Americans and Brits from your own personal experience and it's vastly different from mine. Thus we should be able to conclude that the original conclusion (generality) has a good chance of being fallacious.

aidan wrote:

What I do think is useful is people expressing their own views and experiences and having the freedom to do that however they see fit- I learn a lot that way-and I think others would participate more too- if they didn't think they'd be censured for not having what might be viewed as innappropriate views or innappropriate form for expressing them by those who think they do.

I agree.

aidan wrote:

I don't mind discussing anything with anyone who discusses it with respect. Actually - I think I've been in agreement with most of the contestable points on the main issues of the discussion.
It's just that I also believe Spendius should be able to write and think and express what he sees fit.

And he can. I can also rebuke him when he pedantically fails to communicate, not because he couldn't do it if he wanted to, but because he chooses the random literary references. I think it has mostly to do with habit and having little else to support his ideas on. If he were just making random references to Goethe but still made sense, I wouldn't mind.

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spendius wrote:

A different situation exists in schools where the consumers are kids and have no choices and they are having evolution theory (puritan version) shoved up them on the specious argument that evolution can be studied in labs, which it can't, and that it is necessary for biological work which it isn't.

Wow, you actually said something forward that communicated a clear opinion. Of course, at least in the U.S., you are very, very wrong. Most classes don't seem to even teach evolution besides a very basic overview, likely extremely oversimplified. Those that do do not teach it as if all the evidence comes from a laboratory.

As for biological work, it depends on how inclusive we are getting. It isn't absolutely necessary for someting like biochemistry, but it tends to enrich it and help people understand relationships even on that level. For other parts of biology, it is the subject matter itself.

spendius wrote:

And the communities in which it is proposed to do this vary from cities where anonymity, atheism, absence of settled tradition, changing populations etc are the normal order of things accompanied by the usual social problems and rural communities in places such as Montana and Louisiana where social activity is completely different and many say far more satisfactory.

Huh? What is the 'it' which is proposed? Teaching evolution or something else?

And social activity in Montana? What are you referring to, exactly?

spendius wrote:

Perhaps urban angst is jealous of rural bliss and wishes to get everybody down into the hole that it's in.

Perhaps you invent rationalizations from incorrect premises. Montana has quite good education standards, actually, and is rather practically-minded (rather than "hick"-ish).

spendius wrote:

It isn't as if the Biologic people have a monopoly on silliness.

Did I ever say they did? Of course you're probably trying to imply that more legitimate scientific work compares to writing a computer program to compare 2D projections of abstracted 3D molecules to various Chinese characters and imply design and "specification". LOL.

spendius wrote:

I don't know but I daresay that all the organisations promoting atheism, such as the NCSE and the ACLU, ( as if they are interested in liberty), are megalopolitan in their location and in their staff and are attempting to force city notions onto the food growing regions where biology is a day to day, taken for granted, experience.

The NCSE takes a rather neutral approach to religion and tends to argue the science aspects. They are criticized for it by more 'militant' atheists Wink

. Your listing of the ACLU is just hilarious, though, as they often represent 'conservatives' and religious people, always concerning civil liberties.

I think you have a funny idea about the prevalence of individuals involved in agriculture in the U.S. Even in the rural states agribusiness is the norm and much of the population is city/service-oriented. But hey, have fun with another one of your rationalizations that you treat as accurate Wink

. And call me an elitist just trying to impress people next time, I'm starting to feel neglected!

Darwin wrote:

Darwin joined working class pigeon racing clubs because he valued the insights of men who only knew science without the esoteric labels which are embraced with enthusiasm for reasons that have nothing to do with science and more to do with domination displays in social settings.

True, Darwin sought out the opinions of hard-working scientists and their work.

spendius wrote:

When the Biologic Institute is defunct due to everybody agreeing with Mr S. what will he move on to next? Football? Cricket? Pop music? The urge to call people silly won't go away with a victory. Quite the contrary. The urge will be empowered.

Oh goody, it's psychologist spendius time again! So first I just wanted recognition and an ego massage, now it's an urge to call people silly.

You act like you can't read the thread topic Wink

.

spendius wrote:

Show me research which shows demonstrates that moderate tobacco use in rural settings is as dangerous as heavy smoking in cities.

Show me that emus in rural areas have fewer allergies than those in city environments.

spendius wrote:

City people want it all to go their way and they are completely dependent on food none of which they produce themselves.

Yeah, those city-slickin' bastards! How dare they live in cities! Next thing you know they'll be providing the R&D, services, and economic strength which provides those "farmers" with a high quality of life.

spendius wrote:

TV advertising, TV itself in fact, is not only silly but downright dangerous and corrupt in my opinion and my opinion is worth the same as Mr S's.

Ooh, another backhanded insult. The incoherent one learns!

Well, at least in this post most of your sentences were readable, even if the relevance of the various points was lost.

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