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Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

 
 
spendius
 
  1  
Sat 26 Apr, 2008 05:43 pm
Set wrote-

Quote:
It was quite a show, i greatly enjoyed it.


You should have seen the Chelsea/ Man U match with a few hundred dollars bet on Chelsea winning it.

I think you are saying you "enjoyed" it because the alternative is not something you can get your head round.
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spendius
 
  1  
Sat 26 Apr, 2008 05:47 pm
fm wrote-

Quote:
Looks like this will be the offical Canadian event for Charles 200th birthday and the 150th of "Origins..." I guess Ill have to go and see it, now to convince Mrs Fm to accompany me.
Tranna right?


The mystical charms and enchantments of round numbers eh? You know that only deeply religious temperments can possibly be interested in such silly-soddery.
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spendius
 
  1  
Sat 26 Apr, 2008 05:50 pm
Set wrote-

Quote:
I have been told that the collection exhibited is unique.


I have been told that on many occasions myself actually Set. It is, more often than not, a load of bullshit.
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edgarblythe
 
  1  
Sat 26 Apr, 2008 05:52 pm
I leave it to the good guys to respond, spendius.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Sat 26 Apr, 2008 05:54 pm
remember edgar, spendi has attested that he is capable of finding his own ass in the dark, without a map. Now were working on his hygiene.
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spendius
 
  1  
Sat 26 Apr, 2008 05:54 pm
fm wrote-

Quote:
It seems that the science reporters are getting tired of the anti-science crowd in FLA.


Aw shucks. Maybe they can't jive and are crabbing everything they can't do.

They sure can't write.
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spendius
 
  1  
Sat 26 Apr, 2008 06:00 pm
fm wrote-

Quote:
. Now were working on his hygiene.


No need fm. I follow the Koran on that matter. It's the only thing it has right.

And I don't do soap.
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spendius
 
  1  
Sat 26 Apr, 2008 06:06 pm
And I don't recommend melt-water rivers in the great outback either.
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spendius
 
  1  
Sat 26 Apr, 2008 06:07 pm
I was referring to intelligently designed conveniences.
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Sat 26 Apr, 2008 06:19 pm
farmerman wrote:
wandel-what's the authors name who penned that article ? It seems that the science reporters are getting tired of the anti-science crowd in FLA. The article was a lot more shrill than previous ones or am I just reading too loudly? Very Happy


Actually it was not an article, farmerman.

It was an official statement released by the Florida Citizens for Science. The members of that organization have been baffled and frustrated by various state congressmen trying to score points with anti-evolution constituents. Yesterday I posted excerpts from Brandon Haught's log. Haught is the president of the organization. In his blog, Haught tells of his anger while watching a webcast of the Florida House debate.


Here is one of Brandon Haught's blog comments:
Quote:
I just need to say this and get it out of the way: Rep. Hays is 100% ignorant when it comes to science. Following Hays' own challenge, I will go ahead and throw that statement of mine out there and let you attack it any way you can. The statement will stand up to any "critical analysis." He actually wants science to produce some half insect / half monkey creature. That's what he seriously thinks is a transitional form. Yes, that was one of those almost punch the monitor moments. That and his invitation to everyone to go see the movie Expelled.
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spendius
 
  1  
Sat 26 Apr, 2008 06:40 pm
I love it when they get wound up like that wande.

How do you "almost punch the monitor" ?
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farmerman
 
  1  
Sat 26 Apr, 2008 07:03 pm
Thanks wandel I will search out the blog and use it to follow the unfolding comedy that is Florida .
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Setanta
 
  1  
Sat 26 Apr, 2008 07:07 pm
farmerman wrote:
Looks like this will be the offical Canadian event for Charles 200th birthday and the 150th of "Origins..." I guess Ill have to go and see it, now to convince Mrs Fm to accompany me.
Tranna right?


Yup, downtown near Queen's Park--spittin' distance from the Provincial Parliament, for which spittin' is the appropriate form of address . . .
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spendius
 
  1  
Sat 26 Apr, 2008 07:13 pm
Statistically fm, if the 16 million people in Florida are a comedy you can be fairly sure that any other 16 million in the US are not all that far behind. Especially when their media are owned further north.

It would be silly to let them vote otherwise wouldn't it?

Now Dover is another matter. The small number involved there can afford to be comical without it looking like a trend is setting in. That can hardly be said of 16 million.
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Sun 27 Apr, 2008 06:14 am
FLORIDA UPDATE

Quote:
House poised to adopt evolution bill different from Senate's version
(By JAMES A. SMITH SR., Executive Editor, Florida Baptist Witness, April 26, 2008)

The Florida House of Representatives approved by voice vote April 25 an amendment substituting its bill requiring schools to have "scientific critical analysis" of evolution in place of the Senate-passed evolution academic freedom bill.

Final passage of the House version is expected April 28. The House's approval of its different bill would require the Senate to revisit the contentious issue after a slim majority approved its evolution bill on April 23.

The radically different approaches on evolution clouds prospects that any legislation will be sent to the governor in the waning days of the annual legislative session.

Before the Senate adopted SB 2692, the "Evolution Academic Freedom Act," Sen. Ronda Storms (R-Brandon), the bill sponsor, offered an amendment to replace her two-page bill with the 12-word, one sentence House bill, HB 1483, sponsored by Rep. Alan Hays (R-Umatilla). The Senate voted down Hays' bill on April 23.

Storms is a member of First Baptist Church in Brandon while Hays is a member of First Baptist Church in Umatilla.

While Storms' bill provides an express statutory right protection for teachers to present scientific information that is relevant to the full range of views on biological and chemical evolution, Hays' bill amends a current statute listing "approved methods of instruction" for public school teachers by adding, "A thorough presentation and critical analysis of the scientific theory of evolution."

During House consideration April 25, Hays agreed to accept an amendment offered by Rep. Martin Kiar (D-Parkland) adding "scientific" before "critical analysis" to clarify that only scientific critiques of evolution are permitted.

In an interview with Florida Baptist Witness reflecting on the competing versions in the House and Senate, Florida Baptist Convention legislative consultant Bill Bunkley said, "I'd be happy to take any language that gets out of here to get something done."

But Bunkley expressed skepticism that the House language can prevail in the Senate.

"Given the fact that the House language was already offered in the Senate in a full floor debate and rejected, it's highly doubtful that the Senate will take up the House language and adopt it, in my estimation," he noted.

Since Storms offered the House language during final consideration of the bill on the Senate floor, a two-thirds majority was needed for passage. The measure convincingly failed on a voice vote.

The Legislature has engaged in the evolution debate in response to new statewide science standards adopted by the Florida Board of Education in February asserting that evolution is the "the fundamental concept underlying all biology ... supported by multiple forms of scientific evidence." The new science standards go in effect this fall and will remain in place for ten years replace current standards that did not mention evolution, earning scorn from science education experts.

During the April 25 House debate, representatives rejected another amendment offered by Rep. Kiar that would have removed "critical analysis," which he asserted made the proposed law unconstitutional.

Members of the House debated Hays' bill and the broader question of human origins in a wide-ranging discussion, marked repeatedly by representatives' references to their own religious beliefs.

Rep. Juan-Carlos Planas (R-Miami) spoke to the House from the "angry center," asserting that the debate had focused on extremes represented by those who fail to acknowledge God and those who fail to recognize the reality of evolution.

"I believe in the theory of evolution, yet I believe that God is responsible for it," he said.

Acknowledging the education system and government "almost declared war on religion 30 years ago," Planas said, "By the same token we have all this evidence that scientifically tells us that the world was created by single cells that multiplied and divided and evolved into what we are today. And some consider the fact that we are evolving still."

Although the bill "seems innocuous," Rep. Shelley Vana (D-West Palm Beach) said "the folks who came to speak in favor of it all were very clear that they supported it because it allowed them to teach religion in the school system."

Rep. Keith Fitzgerald (D-Sarasota), speaking as an adherent to Catholic teaching on evolution, cited the story of Galileo being forced by the Roman Catholic Church to recant from his view that the earth revolved around the sun, even though he immediately after defiantly said, "Still, it moves."

Asserting most Catholics, Protestants and Jews have no problem with evolution, the bill is an "attack on your religious liberties," Fitzgerald said.

The debate was really about those "who are threatened by the scientific teaching of scientific doctrine. And they want to use the power of the state to impose on those people who have the duty to transmit knowledge about science doubt about something about which there is in fact no scientific doubt," he said.

Fitzgerald asserted there is "no scientific controversy about evolution. … Evolution is a mountain of facts linked by a set of coherent models and explanations," noting several scientific discoveries demonstrate the validity of evolution, including DNA.

"Are you going to step off the roof of the Capitol building today because gravity is just a theory? Of course not, because gravity is also based on fact. Evolution is a fact. Gravity is a fact. And the theory of evolution is well-established, even better well established in many respects than the theory of evolution," Fitzgerald said.

Urging opposition to the "foolish bill," Rep. Mary Brandenburg (D-Lake Worth) said, "I'm here to tell you folks that I am a Christian, a Roman Catholic. I believe in the theory of evolution and I believe that God started the process. Any one who understands the theory, the scientific theory of evolution, has just got to share my beliefs."

Calling the religious arguments against the bill "straw men" and "wild assertions," Rep. Kurt Kelly (R-Ocala), a deacon at First Baptist Church in Ocala and graduate of Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary, told the House, "I really don't see what the big deal is."

Citing various Bible passages that point to God as creator and noting the bill does not require the teaching of such, Kelly said, "Scientifically, it is impossible to go back and replicate the origins. … Therefore, everyone is going to make a decision based upon some presuppositions."

Rep. Thad Altman (R-Melbourne) told the House, "It's frightening to me that when we have a scientific theory that is presented as fact and we want to have a law that prevents that theory from being critically analyzed - when we get to that point, what we are teaching is a religion in our schools."

Some members expressed concern the state won't be able to recruit and keep high-tech, scientific institutions if the Legislature adopts a bill questioning evolution, which is accepted by most scientists.

Rep. Evan Jenne (D-Davie) said a recent poll of American earth and life scientists found 99.85 of respondents "insist that theory of evolution is valid." Jenne did not name the poll.

Responding to Jenne later in the debate, Rep. Will Weatherford (R-Wesley Chapel), asked, "If the evidence is so overwhelming, if it's so obvious, if the scientists are all pointing in the same direction that the theory of evolution is true, why are we scared to scientifically and critically analyze it in the classroom?"

Rep. Vana said Florida will not attract "bio-tech and high-tech, scientific jobs" by "making a u-turn and riding our bicycles back to the dark ages where we can't talk about sciences."

Minority leader Rep. Dan Gelber (D-Miami Beach) told the House, "I have no idea why we're doing this bill," adding that the House should support the experts who crafted the new science standards.

"I have no earthly idea why we can't simply resist the impulse of getting involved in micromanaging schools when we set up an entire apparatus, Florida's constitution has set up an apparatus for doing exactly what you're trying to do," Gelber said.

Rep. Hays, sponsor of the House bill, told the body good scientists invite scrutiny of their theories. "What I'm trying to make sure with my bill is to make sure that … teachers can lead their students in that critical analysis of that theory," he said.

As to whether there is scientific controversy about evolution, Hays suggested members should see the Ben Stein documentary film, "Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed," currently in theaters to see proof that some highly credentialed scientists have doubts about Darwinian evolution.

"If you think there's not dispute in the scientific community you are badly fooled. I've got some ocean-front property in Phoenix I'd like to sell you," Hays added.

The claim that the bill will allow religion in science classes "is nothing but a bunch of hot air," Hays said. "This does not allow for religious teaching in the classroom. It's about academic freedom."

In questioning from Rep. Gelber, Hays said the bill would not permit the teaching of Intelligent Design.

Kim Kendall, a St. Augustine stay-at-home mom and activist who has lobbied against the new science standards since October, told the Witness she was pleased that many representatives "truly understand" the bill, but she was "extremely taken aback" by Rep. Vana's remarks concerning the religious motives of supporters of the bill.

A member of First Baptist Church in Jacksonville, Kendall said she met with Vana twice and was "stunned" by her comments, asserting, "It's one thing to change your position or differ in your own personal remarks, but to purposely misrepresent so many of us who took the time to drive to Tallahassee is shocking!"
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spendius
 
  1  
Sun 27 Apr, 2008 01:48 pm
Quote:
Success is a science; if you have the conditions, you get the result.


Oscar Wilde.

Quote:
It can never see that there is a science of the successful management of a culture and that cultures have a will to live as well.


Christianity was the condition for our science like the desert was the condition for the camel's humps.

Aesthetics is the science of beauty. Compare Manet's Olympia with the same lady on the operating table.

Apologies for returning to the topic.
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spendius
 
  1  
Mon 28 Apr, 2008 04:30 am
One might say, without extravagant exaggeration, that science proceeds according to the sophistication of the instrumentation by which it observes the world of nature.

To observe the machinations of the "circulating elites" in Florida, or anywhere else, no more opaque instruments than journalism and blogs could possible be found. Not only can we not see what is happening but the conclusions reached are those that were intended to be reached in the first place.

One might as well fall in love with a lady after viewing her through frosted glass windows.

Science is replaced by wishful thinking.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Mon 28 Apr, 2008 04:38 am
Your last post was very interesting, Wandel, for providing the evidence that the members of the Florida legislature are not simply a pack of lock-step yokels resolutely marching backward into the benighted past. In particular, i appreciated the comments of Miss Vana of West Palm Beach, who is quoted:

Quote:
Although the bill "seems innocuous," Rep. Shelley Vana (D-West Palm Beach) said "the folks who came to speak in favor of it all were very clear that they supported it because it allowed them to teach religion in the school system."


It is amazing how frequently the religious right seems so eager to shoot themselves in the foot.
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spendius
 
  1  
Mon 28 Apr, 2008 05:48 am
That's astounding!! I'm astonished. Flabbergasted even.
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spendius
 
  1  
Mon 28 Apr, 2008 06:39 am
Charles Darwin wrote-

Quote:
The effects of sexual selection, when displayed in beauty to charm the females, can be called useful only in a rather forced sense.


The Christian dispensation has reversed the principle and thus allows us to rewrite Mr Darwin's cynical remark as-

Quote:
The effects of sexual selection, when displayed in beauty to charm the males, can be called useful only in a rather forced sense.


Certainly the Venus of Willendorf does not look to have had recourse to any hairdressing salons, lingerie shops, surgical interventions, deportment lessons and whatnot and it is fair to presume that Mr Darwin's statement was still true of humans before the Christian era when the principles it is proposed should be taught in the modern classroom were in full swing.

The charms of the males in those brutish times can be seen in the cave paintings of such places as Lascaux and the Font de Gaume in southern France.

Mr Darwin's statement is still true of the militant lesbian brigade whose interest in charming males is non-existent. Their obvious pride in baggy jeans and unkempt hair is apparent as it is in their icon artwork The Unmade Bed.

It is an irony of monumental proportions that ladies who have had recourse to the facilities I have mentioned for the beautification of the female form, and are apparently obsessed by them, should seek to thrust Mr Darwin's ideas into the minds of innocent young girls in grade schools.

Those enchanting ladies who seek to resist such a thrusting are of course perfectly rational and can get themselves up to charm males without the slightest fear of looking totally ridiculous or, as contradiction is ugly, disfigured by such an aesthetic crime which, one might justifiably say, is a blot on the landscape so grotesque that one might have difficulty in not guffawing on finding it crossing one's path.
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