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Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

 
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Sun 13 Apr, 2008 07:23 pm
Did you ever read The Voyage of the BEagle spendi? . Its rather enjoyable despite that its language is a bit pretentious. Most, if not all of your comments are addressed inside.
You did know that Darwin had a man-servant named Syms Covington who accompanied him on most of the trip and served as a specimen preparator and study skin "skinner"?.

Darwin was more prepared to go on the BEagle than you give him credit . After all, he spent time understudying in geology and was involved in making "connections" in the naturalists and scientific world even before he left. I think that the politics of his selection was more like the "chicago" politics we are used to over here.
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raprap
 
  1  
Sun 13 Apr, 2008 07:29 pm
farmerman wrote:
Quote:
You just can't see "the bloke" in these guys. You see but a status symbol.

Interesting viewpoint. Please explain in more detail
Quote:
You might be right fm if we leave out the creativity.

Its been said that the 5 greatest ideas of the millenium were
The germ theory
Quantum mechanics
Plate tectonics
Special Relativity and
Natural Selection.

All grew out of ideas that were applied from other media entirely.
Thats creativity to me.


Good point FM---but I'm going to have to ponder the greatest ideas of the millennium a bit because it doesn't include anything about electromagnetism (unless you consider wave mechanics a form of quantum theory), heliocentrism, atomic theory (is electron orbital theory as another form of quantum mechanics?), von-Neuman's computer architecture, or the creation/application of the calculus and game theory, to name just a few more possibilities.

The ones you've mentioned are important ideas all, but then some just as important ideas may not be quite so so obvious----as I've seen good evidence that advances in plumbing and sewerage disposal has, in the last century, been responsible for saving more human lives than all the advances in medicine.

Rap
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farmerman
 
  1  
Sun 13 Apr, 2008 07:46 pm
rap, these were not my choices, they were "top ideas of the last 1000 years"that were voted on by scientists, futurists, and historians(voting doesnt guarantee accuracy natch). This appeared in NAture or Some mag around the turn of the millenium.
BTW, it was almost unanimous that , from those polled,the most important idea of the millenium was Darwin all the way.

I think that the point was that most of these Great Ideas were the work of individuals.
Hence, I dont kn ow why plate tectonics was on the list (Im not unhappy that its up there but Im not sure that it can be truly a single person who gets all the credit, ).
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raprap
 
  1  
Sun 13 Apr, 2008 07:48 pm
Oops I left out the periodic table of the elements--now that was a great idea.

Rap
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farmerman
 
  1  
Sun 13 Apr, 2008 08:00 pm
yeh Mendeleyev had his **** together.
but, the basic stats were worked out before he did his work.

Also, the old atomic theory from the old Bohr model was only brought together after the "new Quantum theories were developed from the late 1920s , so Im gonna say that ATomic theory was not ORIGINALLY a part of QM. QM brought it all together but after the ATomic theory was already worked out by Bohrs work with H2 atom.

Electromag, was not the bright idea of one person either. It had so many "shoulders" upon which subsequent discoveries were standing
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spendius
 
  1  
Mon 14 Apr, 2008 03:17 am
rap wrote-

Quote:
as I've seen good evidence that advances in plumbing and sewerage disposal has, in the last century, been responsible for saving more human lives than all the advances in medicine.


I'll go with that. Sir John Harrington, Elizabeth 1's "saucy Godson" with the invention of the flush bog in 1496. Then brewing and distilling alcohol. And Faraday. Bringing tobacco to Europe. Jesus's lightning bolt.

Plumbers and farmers save lives.

Monotheism is the big one.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Mon 14 Apr, 2008 07:54 am
Wandel, that summary of the arguments in the California brief, while interesting, was poorly written. The casual reader who is not familiar with the controversy, or with logical fallacies, will not have learned anything by the time she has finished reading the article. In particular, the reference to quote-mining and the reference to a straw man argument don't clearly demonstrate what has taken place which is logically objectionable.

Interesting article, but i give the author a "D" for clarity and composition. It is only at the end of the article, when the author discusses plaintiff's religious bigotry that one finds an unambiguous explanation of why the judge rejects the argument.
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rosborne979
 
  1  
Mon 14 Apr, 2008 08:04 am
Setanta wrote:
Interesting article, but i give the author a "D" for clarity and composition. It is only at the end of the article, when the author discusses plaintiff's religious bigotry that one finds an unambiguous explanation of why the judge rejects the argument.

I noticed that as well.
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spendius
 
  1  
Mon 14 Apr, 2008 08:06 am
Settin' Ash-aah wrote-

Quote:
It is only at the end of the article, when the author discusses plaintiff's religious bigotry that one finds an unambiguous explanation of why the judge rejects the argument.


So what happens if the plaintiff isn't a religious bigot and brings out arguments relating to social consequences.

Are you scared of admitting that there are those who do and those to whom it is done in case you find yourself in the latter category which you will if you're not engaged with the doing.

I have been aware of your fears in that regard ever since I joined the fray. It's a psychological problem and life is much nicer once you get it sorted out.


"Ours is not to reason why. Ours is but to do and die". (Tennyson).

Know-alls hate it. I love it. It's liberating.
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spendius
 
  1  
Mon 14 Apr, 2008 08:10 am
That why it's famous and will be long after Judge Otero is forgotten.
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spendius
 
  1  
Mon 14 Apr, 2008 08:14 am
Great poets are not there to be tested in exams for or name-dropped at suitable moments.

They are there for health reasons. It's an evolutionary process. If they last they are good adaptations. And there's a lot more bad than good. That's all discarded like most mutations.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Mon 14 Apr, 2008 08:15 am
raprap wrote:
The ones you've mentioned are important ideas all, but then some just as important ideas may not be quite so so obvious----as I've seen good evidence that advances in plumbing and sewerage disposal has, in the last century, been responsible for saving more human lives than all the advances in medicine.

Rap


This brings to mind two important aspects of science which make it so much superior to superstition, for less than obvious reasons. The first is that the methodical study of circumstance, without reference to a preconception of how the world is organized, can yield dramatic results. John Snow was a physician in London during the 1853-54 cholera outbreak (he is important to the development of medicine in other ways, but he is famous for this) who used epidemiological demographics to demonstrate that "tainted" water was a vector for the spread of cholera, without reference to a "germ theory" of medicine. He was able to show that cholera was epidemic "below" the sewer systems then in operation, and that those who drew their water from pumps "above" the sewage system did not contract the disease. A careful review of the demographic statistics of the spread of the disease compared to a study of the water sources in the affected neighborhood revealed the disease vector 20 years before morbid microorganisms were definitively identified.

But as important, and perhaps more important, than clean water and efficient, isolated sewage removal have been automobiles. This is where the law of unintended consequences shows is positive side. Unintended consequences are not always disastrous, and can in fact be beneficial. Those who invented and marketed automobiles cannot reasonably be said to have had good public health in mind. However, as the horse disappeared from urban landscapes, and urban livery stables disappeared, the incidence and prevalence of childhood diseases and tuberculosis dropped dramatically. A century ago, one could expect, even in the wealthiest families, that (on average) one half of one's children would not survive to adulthood. The most common vector for the diseases which killed children, not understood even after the promulgation and demonstration of the validity of a germ theory of disease, was flies. The horse manure in the streets of cities brought clouds of flies, which spread disease in what is in retrospect a predictable manner--but no seems to have noticed at the time. Additionally, horses are a vector for tuberculosis, and with livery stables and private stables spread throughout cities, tuberculosis was endemic.

No one who built cars thought of themselves as fighters in an epidemiological war. The effect, nevertheless, was dramatic and salutary. I don't believe that any creationist can claim such a victory for their mumbo-jumbo.
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spendius
 
  1  
Mon 14 Apr, 2008 08:23 am
I might add, as an afterthought, that such an evolutionary process goes a lot faster than those boring old fossils ever did and is much more difficult to understand which is the reason for you all jumping all over the baby stuff rather than getting down to some serious study.

And if you are the types to take the easy way out you are bound to communicate that attitude to classes of kids and that's un-American and blasphemy in the NASCAR pits. It can lead to dire consequences.
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spendius
 
  1  
Mon 14 Apr, 2008 08:31 am
Settin' Aah-aah wrote-

Quote:
I don't believe that any creationist can claim such a victory for their mumbo-jumbo.


That was mumbo-jumbo.

Are you trying to say that the danger from flies only became known when there was horse-**** in the street.

I think you underestimate our forbears who were all much like us.

It was political. The toffs had horses and getting them banned was impossible. The toffs had to be sidelined first.

In fact horseshit is a valuable commodity and the poor would have gathered it all up to make their dumplings with.

And Creationists can claim credit for having invented the whole shooting match by a process far too complex for anybody to understand. Ever.

Depite them pretending that they do.
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TheCorrectResponse
 
  1  
Mon 14 Apr, 2008 10:12 am
Spendi posts the incredibly obvious:
Quote:

It's this sticking to the facts we don't much care for.


Really? Never could have told from your 20,000+ posts Laughing
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spendius
 
  1  
Mon 14 Apr, 2008 10:23 am
Facts are a bit dangerous TCR. Philosophically I mean and on a science thread that's important.

Choosing which ones to know is alright though.

It used to be a line in a comedy show-- "I don't wish to know that my good man."
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spendius
 
  1  
Mon 14 Apr, 2008 10:29 am
Such a fact is that your post was meaningless outside of your own head.

One of my posts recently tipped the Grand National winner an hour before the race. You can check it out if you don't believe me.

So that turned out a fact even before it happened. Same on Gold Cup day.

Anything like that on your form sheet. It's serious Able 2 Knowing in my book. And the sooner you get with it the more I'll like it.

Blather makes no impression on me. I'll repeat that. None.
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Wolf ODonnell
 
  1  
Mon 14 Apr, 2008 11:41 am
spendius wrote:
Me no comprendez.


And what about it do you not comprehend?

I set the post out quite clearly, stating exactly what the consequences of your precocious ID would be. I didn't beat around the bush. I stated what they would be and what exactly it is about ID that made me think those would be the consequences. And there's logic linking the former and the latter together, not some random belief that they are linked together despite there being no evidence to support otherwise.

I, of course. did not mention the fact that ID seems to also teach people to lie consistently as can be evidenced from the behaviour of prominent ID supporters such as Mark Mathis (e.g. their behaviour for the screening of their movies) and the Discovery Institute in general. However, I see that it would have been completely wasted on you.

You dismiss other people's views with "me no comprendez" without asking for clarification. Which makes me wonder why you are here on Able2know, seeing as you've shown no clear evidence that you wish to know anything.

And you wonder why people think you're a troll.
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Mon 14 Apr, 2008 11:44 am
FLORIDA UPDATE

Quote:
An important question goes unasked
(by Brandon Haught, Florida Citizens for Science, April 13, 2008)

In the Florida House of Representatives recently 11 lawmakers were bogged down in a lengthy discussion concerning biological evolution. A bill specifically singling out the subject of evolution as taught in the public school classroom dominated well over an hour in the Friday Schools and Learning committee meeting. Despite the scrutiny, there was one important question that went unasked, and the bill's presenter, Rep. D. Alan Hays, got a free pass as a result. The bill, which casts doubt on the theory of evolution by deceptively invoking the phrase "critical analysis", thus passed the committee on a 7-4 vote.

Hays protested again and again that his bill does nothing more than protect teachers. He said, "This amendment says absolutely nothing about teaching religion." That statement seems clear enough if taken at face value. He even admonished Rep. Martin Kiar for his line of questioning on the religion subject by demanding that Kiar not read something into the legislation that is not already there. That scolding leads to a significant problem for Hays, though. It was never made clear what actually is there.

The question that is probably the most important one to ask is: What are some examples of critical analysis of evolution that have no religious connotations and are also legitimate, up-to-date scientific ideas? This is where Hays got a free pass. He read from prepared remarks and then also talked off the cuff about critical analysis of evolution needing to be scientific. He went to great lengths to distance critical analysis from religion. However, to give his bill any validity it would be necessary to give some examples. He introduced the bill; he should know what the critical analysis he is proposing means in some detail.

Parent and vocal advocate of Hays' cause, Kim Kendall, has been criticizing the teaching of evolution for months and was prominent in the media during the state science standards approval process. She spoke during the public comment period Friday about three unnamed teachers complaining that they don't have the freedom to introduce information critical of evolution. Once again the pertinent question goes unasked: What were these teachers telling students? Kendall mentions several times the Cambrian explosion and gaps in the fossil record, although it's unknown if these were the actual points the teachers in question used. If these are ideas teachers are passing along to students, then, yes, they should be denied what they're dishonestly calling "academic freedom." A later speaker, Barry Golden, was one of those who wrote the brand new state science standards. He briefly and authoritatively corrected Kendall by saying that the Cambrian explosion supports evolution, not refutes it. (The Cambrian explosion is an historical timeframe during which many of the earliest fossils of life are found.)

As a matter of fact, points like the Cambrian explosion and so-called gaps in the fossil record are well-documented, old creationist talking points that have been floating around for decades. These and similar points were proven to be hollow and blatantly dishonest by the scientific community back when they were first proposed. They persist despite being discredited because the general public, and in this specific case Florida legislators, have never heard them before. Kendall's use of these tired examples weakens her case. They connect her support of the bill to creationism.

It can be argued that Kendall's statements might not reflect Rep. Hays' intent. That then still leaves open the question of what exactly Hays wants taught under the guise of critical analysis. The final speaker at the meeting, ACLU representative Courtenay Strickland, made an important point: The bill opens the door to teaching religious beliefs as science in the classroom. Calling something science doesn't necessarily make it science.

As such, Florida Citizens for Science makes this public challenge to Hays: Give examples of critical analysis of evolution that have no religious connotations and are also legitimate, up-to-date scientific ideas. If Hays refuses to give a straight answer, or even worse cites discredited, unscientific ideas, then the intent of these bills is questionable at best and the bill needs to be dropped.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Mon 14 Apr, 2008 11:46 am
Quote:
One of my posts recently tipped the Grand National winner an hour before the race. You can check it out if you don't believe me.

So that turned out a fact even before it happened. Same on Gold Cup day


SO you made a lucky guess, thats why people gamble. However, the house always wins even if they have to make rules to discourage winning.
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