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Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

 
 
spendius
 
  1  
Thu 27 Mar, 2008 07:23 am
fm wrote-

Quote:
Ive been observing that foxy, like natural selection, makes minute almost unnoticed changes in her opinions and grdully morphs them until she is often at 180 different from her initial stances.


As a proponent of the joys of natural selection one might think you approved of that.

Besides, it is a lady's privilege to change her mind. That's official here. Anyone who can't deal with it can't deal with reality.

And you ought to be very grateful to her for providing you with opportunities to evade my questions without anybody noticing. Anybody under 10 I mean.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Thu 27 Mar, 2008 07:31 am
farmerman wrote:
Somehow, I dont think foxy would make a good witness for just about any concept.

As far as her initial attempt at humor vis-a-vis her grand daughters original comment, I recall how really steamed foxy got when we got too close to her belief system on that very subject . I suppose she should have pushed her own buttons.

Im done with this witness. You can have her back.


Do you really? Would you care to post evidence of that? I would be fascinated to see what you come up with to support still another misstatement of my posted opinions.

But of course if you are 'done with this witness', you won't bother to support your own selective memory.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Thu 27 Mar, 2008 07:53 am
spendius wrote:
fm wrote-

Quote:
Ive been observing that foxy, like natural selection, makes minute almost unnoticed changes in her opinions and grdully morphs them until she is often at 180 different from her initial stances.


As a proponent of the joys of natural selection one might think you approved of that.

Besides, it is a lady's privilege to change her mind. That's official here. Anyone who can't deal with it can't deal with reality.

And you ought to be very grateful to her for providing you with opportunities to evade my questions without anybody noticing. Anybody under 10 I mean.


It would also be interesting to see any posted evidence that my opinions on this have changed. FM keeps repeating that intermittantly while not providing any examples of it of course. Some actually realize their argument rings hollow, so they resort to smug smiles indicating their self-assumed superiority. And there are those who post article after article without comment to "prove" that IDers are wild eyed or ignorant religious fanatics as recognition that this is not always the case is sooooo inconvenient to their presumed thesis. Add in the hit and run method in which one presumes to criticize, find fault, or deliver ad hominem swipes but who will never give their own thought out opinion, and you pretty much have the whole gamut of the way the typical AIDer has conducted 'civil discourse' on this thread.

It became so bad the first time I participated on this thread, I became weary of the inability of AIDers to discuss the topic at face value and realized they simply wished to discredit or disparage anybody with a different point of view. I will confess that I have attempted to change my opinion about that. It isn't working.
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TheCorrectResponse
 
  1  
Thu 27 Mar, 2008 08:00 am
Does anyone else get the feeling that in dealing with Foxy you are dealing with a version of Real Life-lite.

She makes a statement, is shown where it is wrong (as Pualigirl did above) and it's either ignored, seen as support for her own position, or seen as an example of how someone is misusing what she said.

She is great at labeling respondents but problematic at best in responding to specific points in the posts.

She accused me of calling her all kinds of names "over the years" (I can find about four times I've replied to her posts) but I can't seem to find these ad-hominems I've so frequently hurled. One of which was me purportedly repeatedly calling her dishonest?! Yet I just did a quick search and came up with 209 posts where SHE called another poster dishonest.

Maybe it's just me but she could be RL in drag!
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spendius
 
  1  
Thu 27 Mar, 2008 08:19 am
fm wrote-

Quote:
Ove on BBB's thread about a "wasted day at the museum", we can see the lies and misconceptions that the YECs had when leading a field trip to the Denver museum. It was really pitiful.
Maybe Ill go and snip it and bring the clip over here for RL and foxy's comments.


I have seen enough of the film to have got the picture so I will comment on it as Foxy has not done and rl seems to have deserted us.

There is a distinction, never appreciated by AIDs-ers, due to the overpowering influence of their egos, between experience as lived, which the film shows going by almost moment by moment, or at least that at which the camera is pointed, and experience as learned. A difference between immediate certainty given by intuition, illumination, inspiration and the power of sizing things up, what Goethe called the "exact percipient fancy, and the mental products of rational procedure and technical experiments. In kids the former is much the stronger and involves such things as analogy, pictures and symbols whereas the latter are determined by formula, laws and schemes.

The film shows a large series of "becomings" which each kid is experiencing in a different way and is felt, sensually, and generally inexpressible. One might look at the fossils, or plastic imitations of fossils, and become more aware of his own skeleton and those of the people around him and of death. Another might think what an awful pullover that man is wearing and I'm sure he dyes his hair. Yet another might be thinking of the cafe where the chocolate ice-creams are served and others about almost anything under the sun that some stimulus or other has triggered in them. The possibilities in that regard are very large but limited to cultural factors within their experience. "Will this be on TV?" one might be thinking, or "This looks an easy job", or "I'll draw a moustache on that monster when nobody's looking", or any one of a number of things which three years in a fm classroom will empty your head of so that room can be made for what fm thinks.

To suggest that they are all soaking up the spiel and are having their heads screwed up for the rest of their lives and that the country's science is going over a cliff as a result of this novel day out with a nice drive, lunch in a diner and other treats the idiotic parents can be persuaded to cough up in a social setting, is a strawman of gigantic size directly proportional to the size of the aforementioned egos. It constitutes laying one's own prejudices onto these kids. Projection. Indoctrinbloodyation.

It probably depends on how you see a movie. With a closed mind a completely different scene, a somewhat singular one, is viewed than with that of an open one and whenever a closed one shows itself you can bet your boots that it looks at everything else in an identical fashion.

It looks a good job though and the kids will only be there for a short while and when they've gone we can get back on Facebook and trawl the parade seeking the lady of our dreams. Or even finding her in the back office.

And c.i. talks about me believing in Superman. I was wondering if GBS inspired Superman with his play Man and Superman which played in New York and is a standard in the mental repetroire of any half-way decent writer who will know how to milk it seemingly without end. Maybe it inspired a race of Supermen. (Hey spendi! don't forget to credit Nietzsche-ed)
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Thu 27 Mar, 2008 08:37 am
Foxy wrote-

Quote:
It isn't working.


Don't lose heart Foxy. To do so defines your faith.

Think of them as your charges in the remedial class where quick results are not normally anticipated.
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Thu 27 Mar, 2008 08:51 am
FLORIDA UPDATE

Quote:
'Evolution Act' passed by panel
(By LAURA GREEN, Palm Beach Post, March 27, 2008)

Opponents of a new requirement to teach evolution may soon be able to contradict those teachings without fear of reprisal.

But others says that fear is without merit and is being used merely to cloud the teaching of a legitimate science.

Members of a Senate education committee Wednesday passed the "Evolution Academic Freedom Act," which expressly gives teachers and students the right to discuss in class "scientific information" calling evolution into question.

Proponents say the bill protects teachers and students from discrimination or discipline based on their views on Darwin's theory.

"They can't be given bathroom duty in addition to lunch room duty," said Sen. Ronda Storms, the bill's sponsor. "There are myriad ways to punish teachers for stepping off the reservation."

But so far no public school teacher or student has ever claimed they faced any punishment or discrimination relating to their views on evolution, according to the state Department of Education.

Facing an ugly debate over whether evolution should be taught in Florida classrooms as the "fundamental concept underlying all of biology," a split state Board of Education agreed last month to watered-down wording.

They voted to require evolution be taught as a "scientific theory."

But even that did not sit well with some, particularly Christian conservatives, who wanted no explicit evolution requirement. This bill is seen as the antidote.

"You cannot simply call a religious belief scientific information and thus open the door to teaching it in our scientific classrooms," said Courtenay Strickland, the daughter of a Baptist minister and a science teacher.

Strickland spoke on behalf of the American Civil Liberties Union, which filed the Pennsylvania lawsuit that struck down the teaching of intelligent design.

She promised another "massive" lawsuit here if teachers use it to discuss religion in science class.

But Storms said the law specifically prohibits discussion of creationism and intelligent design.

She said a teacher might say: "Here's the theory of evolution and here are the flaws and here are the breaks. Here are the people with legitimate questions. Here's what the theories are."

David Brackin, an Orange County teacher who came Wednesday's hearing but did not testify, said he would appreciate such a law.

When he began teaching 23 years ago, Brackin said he taught students that there are "missing links" in the fossil evidence that led him to question evolution.

"You don't find any partial-bat partial-rats," he said.

An assistant principal heard Brackin and told him to stop teaching religion, he said.

"I don't want to say evolution is fact. I don't want to say intelligent design is a fact. I want my kids to question. I want to be able to do that without being dragged into the office," Brackin said.

Florida students will still be expected to learn all of the material covered in the new science standards if the bill becomes law, Storms said.

The pre-K through 12 education committee approved the bill 4-1, with Sen. Ted Deutch, D-Boca Raton, dissenting.
0 Replies
 
TheCorrectResponse
 
  1  
Thu 27 Mar, 2008 09:03 am
Quote:

... taught students that there are "missing links" in the fossil evidence...You don't find any partial-bat partial-rats,"


Well its good to see you'll still be able to misprepresent what the theory says.
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spendius
 
  1  
Thu 27 Mar, 2008 09:29 am
Foxy wrote-

Quote:
And there are those who post article after article without comment to "prove" that IDers are wild eyed or ignorant religious fanatics as recognition that this is not always the case is sooooo inconvenient to their presumed thesis.


It is worse than that Foxy. What wande is innocently unaware of when he posts these articles, a sooooo convenient innocence, is that journalism only pretends to be an organ of the people and is in actual fact an exploiter of the people. And has been for a long time.

Thus A2K is besmirched by the productions wande brings to it because he extends the range of exploitation beyond that of the immediate area in which the article surfaced, as scum does, to our viewers.

Which is not very nice on a science thread I must say. He's rounding up A2Kers for branding on behalf of the exploiters.

He would have to argue that journalism isn't in the exploitation business to avoid such an obvious conclusion and I can't imagine him persuading many people to that view.
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spendius
 
  1  
Thu 27 Mar, 2008 09:50 am
TCR wrote-

Quote:
Well its good to see you'll still be able to misprepresent what the theory says.


Don't you think TCR that you ought to be attacking the system that produced the result you disapprove of.

You're going to get the same result wherever there is a religious tradition.

What's the point of making sarcastic remarks about the results again and again. It is as if you support the system that produces these results so that you can keep on making sarcastic remarks.

Shouldn't you be for scrapping school boards entirely and getting a national curriculum argued out in the highest courts. That's what I would be doing if I was an AIDs-er.
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TheCorrectResponse
 
  1  
Thu 27 Mar, 2008 10:05 am
So lets see: we can't post news articles, we can't post editorials, we can't comment on news articles, we can't comment on editorials, we can't point out when someone's post contain logical contradictions, we can't point out when someone's posts contain factual errors, and we can't post scientific facts because they are tainted by the almighty dollarÂ…Is that about it or have I missed something?
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Chumly
 
  1  
Thu 27 Mar, 2008 10:11 am
Nice TCR!

Would you be kind enough to comment on this thread if you're inclined? Perhaps, but not necessarily in direct response to the last post (mine).

What are absolutes?
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spendius
 
  1  
Thu 27 Mar, 2008 10:20 am
TCR wrote-

Quote:
So lets see: we can't post news articles, we can't post editorials, we can't comment on news articles, we can't comment on editorials, we can't point out when someone's post contain logical contradictions, we can't point out when someone's posts contain factual errors, and we can't post scientific facts because they are tainted by the almighty dollarÂ…Is that about it or have I missed something?


You have indeed.

You have missed that I never said you couldn't do any of those things.

That they are all tainted by the mighty dollar is merely a fact which I was drawing viewer's attention to so that they can, if they wish, apply a finer critical faculty to their observations of the posts we write. Mine included.

It is a fact easily forgotten when reading material with which one agrees and which might, might, be moving one's views imperceptibly in a certain direction and being reminded that exploiters for money are on the case is a salutary lesson which helps to prevent that sort of thing happening too readily.

That's what it's about. Would you object?
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TheCorrectResponse
 
  1  
Thu 27 Mar, 2008 10:43 am
Chumly:
Well thanks for the invitation. But I tend to stay away from the philosophers. If I disagree with them (a few in particular anyway) -- the use of a term for instance, they tell me it's because I'm not smart enough to understand what they are talking about. When I given further detail to my argument they italicize the term and then tell me I NOW am not smart enough to know what they are talking about.

So, you see, if I need to know how dumb I am Spendi is always kind enough to remind me, any more would just be redundant.

But to quickly speak to some of the points you made. The tensile strength of aluminum could be changed by cooling it to near absolute zero. Avogadro's number could be different in a different universe but the physical constants are so finely tuned that if it was we probably could not exist there to demonstrate its new value.

As for the idea of mathematical constants being absolute anytime anywhere I would just ask you if you think a value of pi would be equivalent in a Euclidean geometry and in a Lobachevskian geometry. And if we expanded from the real numbers to the pseudo-real numbers (yes there are such things) could there be a prime that exists between 5 and 7, or would we get around that by calling it a pseudo-prime?

See maybe they are right and I'm NOT smart enough to hang out with the philosophers!
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Setanta
 
  1  
Thu 27 Mar, 2008 10:50 am
TheCorrectResponse wrote:
Maybe it's just me but she could be RL in drag!


That's hilarious . . .
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TheCorrectResponse
 
  1  
Thu 27 Mar, 2008 10:53 am
I'm glad I wasn't the only one to notice the resemblance!
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Chumly
 
  1  
Thu 27 Mar, 2008 10:57 am
Thanks TCR!
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spendius
 
  1  
Thu 27 Mar, 2008 11:03 am
Would AIDs-ers be prepared to see the "gap" in this quote which is from the Shaw biography you have probably all guessed is what I'm studying at the moment. Words inside speech marks are Shaw's or Butler's.

Quote:
Shaw placed himself after the isolated figure of Samuel Butler, and encouraged everyone to share this isolation by treating themselves, under a strictly impartial rent act, as tenant-caretakers of this planet. He regarded Butler as a pioneer in the metabiological crusade against the environmental consequences of Darwinism. Butler had revealed his genius to Shaw in Life and Habit, the essay on evolution where he compressed his objections to the dogma of Natural Selection into six words : 'Darwin banished mind from the universe.' It was Butler who first perceived the moral abyss of determinism--what Shaw called ' the unspeakable horror of the mindless purposeless world presented to us by Natural Selection'. In 1887 Shaw had been sent Butler's Luck or Cunning? for review ............. ' From this time on I was acquainted with Butler's view of evolution, though I do not think I grasped its full significance until years afterwards when I arrived at it in my own way.'

The review treats Butler's opinions as being of equal merit to Darwin's. The question at issue is--granted the survival of the fittest, were the survivors made fit by mere luck, or did they fit themselves by cunning?' he wrote, 'Mr Butler is for cunning, and he will have it that Darwin was all for luck.'

' The quarrel is a pretty one; for if you decide in favour of cunning, the Darwinian will reply that it was a great piece of luck in the survivor to have that cunning; whereas, if you back luck, the Lamarck-Butlerian will urge that the survivor must have had the cunning to turn his luck to account. Now, evidently the essence of pure luck is that it brings more than average good fortune without the excercise of more than average ability. Luck is luck only in so far as it is independent of cunning. Otherwise luck and cunning are convertible terms, in which case the dispute is about words, not about ideas...The controversy is one of those in which the last word is everything.'


So is it semantics or metaphysical truth?

Which begs the question of whether school boards would better serve the kids and the nation if they were composed of the lucky or the cunning.

I vote for the cunning. If Darwinists vote for luck then they are atavistic and take no account of ability and it is they who will run science off a cliff whilst shouting that others are doing it.

If Darwin did banish mind from the universe then that is one big gap.
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Chumly
 
  1  
Thu 27 Mar, 2008 11:05 am
If spendi was a cop he'd have powdered sugar on his blues.
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spendius
 
  1  
Thu 27 Mar, 2008 11:08 am
Settin' Aah-aah wrote-

Quote:
TheCorrectResponse wrote:
Maybe it's just me but she could be RL in drag!


That's hilarious . . .


It's the sort of laugh one might do at a fierce chained dog and is also a clear demonstration of an inabilty to even read someone's gender from their literary compositions and that is tantamount, on this thread at least, to being unable to read at all.

But I'm happy to see that the usual suspects have genuflected at this highly original (ahem) witticism.
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