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Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

 
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Sat 22 Mar, 2008 11:20 am
Evenmoreso is that any organized effort to criticize a PC-film or one advocating Leftist or a social activist or point of view criticizing Christianity etc. is depicted as efforts by wild-eyed religious fanatics who intend to shelve science, shut down intellectual thought, and push their beliefs down the throat of everybody else.

But protests against a film supporting a concept of ID or any other un-PC point of view is depicted as intelligent and thoughtful people defending all that is good and virtuous and right and properly exercising their First Amendment rights.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sat 22 Mar, 2008 11:21 am
spendius wrote:
It's an investment c.i. People don't give money away you nitwit.

The hoo-ha in wande's quote was a stunt.

Quote:
convention of atheists


convocation would be more appropriate I think. Garden equipment suppliers have conventions.


It's an investment to confuse our children and adults of religion. It's really kind of sad, really, because after the initial introduction, there's nothing to support it.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Sat 22 Mar, 2008 11:22 am
See?
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spendius
 
  1  
Sat 22 Mar, 2008 12:07 pm
c.i.-

Did you not read that long piece I took all that time and effort to compose especially for the likes of you?

The one beginning with a Berthold Brecht quote. You remember it don't you. It was only yesterday.

Where the hell are you coming from?

I could understand if you argued with the piece but to just carry on as if I hadn't written it with exactly the sort of stuff it was intended to shift off a science thread is plain bloody ignorant and if that's a sample of what we can expect from AIDs-ers, with their critical analysis fantasies which are obviously mere postures, you can shove it.

What sort of an example does that set to any young person coming on here in the hope of finding something out about science.

That it consists of simply ignoring evidence, which was presented and which welcomes peer-review, and carrying on, as if there hadn't been any such evidence presented, in the usual bigoted manner without looking to right or left. Is that what the kid is going to see?

It's what's there.

Maybe you didn't even read it which is a mufflers in the ears job. Blinkers to match with ermine muffs.

And if you can't understand it then what on earth are you doing making wild pronouncements on the subject of the education of the generations to come.

The kid, if he has any brains, is not going to be too much taken with the AIDs-er philosophy I shouldn't think unless he wishes to develop into as silly a sod as you are.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sat 22 Mar, 2008 12:25 pm
spendi, I was laid up yesterday, because I had a little mishap the day before while packing up things to get ready for remodeling our home. My wife took me to emergency, because of the pain, and I was kept at the hospital for seven hours. I'm walking on crutches, and have not been active yesterday, and slept most of the day.

I'll have to go back on this thread to find out what you're talking about, but in the mean time, please have a little patience.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Sat 22 Mar, 2008 12:29 pm
spendius wrote:
The one beginning with a Berthold Brecht quote.


A quote from what play(?) is that, btw, spendi? (Translated or written in English?)

---------------------

Hoping, c.i., you're feeling better. Take care!
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sat 22 Mar, 2008 12:30 pm
spendi, Your piece on the Berthold Brecht quote is long on wind and very little on content. Good try, old sport, but it doesn't even take off from the ground. It sputters without much fuel to give it momentum. Nexus? ROFL
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spendius
 
  1  
Sat 22 Mar, 2008 12:54 pm
You really ought to give us at least a hint of why you think those things about my efforts c.i. Germaine Greer used stronger assertions than that about Mother Theresa.

BTW- I'm sorry to hear of your troubles. I hope they didn't cost too much and that you are feeling better. I suppose the prospect of remodelling my residence would make me feel a bit dodgy. Perhaps your body is trying to send a message to your noggin. I used to get earache at school but it always went as soon as the holidays started.

Walt-

I don't know the source of that Brecht quote. I saw it in Michael Holroyd's biography of Bernard Shaw (Vol 2) in relation to a discussion about the geographical alienation involved in the writing of Fanny's First Play due to Shaw being away from England at the time of writing.

It seemed a neat way of explaining that you need to be away from yourself when thinking scientifically.

One can so easily become anti-religious due to some personal experience which is deemed sinful or immoral by religious thinking and that is hardly the sort of thing to bring to the table in a debate about education.

It is very difficult to become pro-religion for reasons of that nature.

AIDs-ers might be the organised party of the sinners for all we know.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sat 22 Mar, 2008 03:02 pm
We are truly the organized party of sinners, but you must remember that it's a perception of the religious, since we don't give "sin" any veracity.
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spendius
 
  1  
Sat 22 Mar, 2008 04:26 pm
I would expect that. That's the way an atheist has to think.

Sin is that behaviour which our animal nature urges us to engage in and which theological science has determined is subversive to the sound operation of a a successful society. The legal regulations cover most of it and it is in the areas to which they don't apply where the difficulties arise.

What I was getting at, or trying to, is the original point at which someone becomes anti-religion. Would you be prepared to say when that was in your case. Once they do so the rest follows automatically and as it is predictable it isn't of much interest. The basic arguments have been known for centuries. Bradlaugh challenged God from the podium to strike him down dead there and then.

Anti-religion in schools is tantamount to a surrender to the animal urges and will cause more people to get onto the atheist path at a young age when those urges are strongest.

Another thing you need to remember is that you AIDs-ers on here are the soft-centre of the mission. The hard liners are sitting back waiting for you to strew the path with roses for them and they'll shunt you out of the way once they have all blown into the bushes.

It's a political campaign of momentous importance.
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spendius
 
  1  
Sat 22 Mar, 2008 04:29 pm
And you haven't got a dog in the fight come November. Not even in the prelims.
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Sun 23 Mar, 2008 08:34 am
Quote:
Intelligent Design Movie Is Not for Heathens
(Russell Blackford, Institute for Ethics and Emerging Technologies, March 22, 2008)

For all I know, Ben Stein may be Apollo's gift to the professions of acting and gameshow hosting, and to some of the other odd activities that have come his way from time to time in a long career that's more varied than the Galapagos finches.

Until very recently, Stein wasn't even on my radar, any more than I'm on his, but he's now involved as the starring talent in a project to popularise the idea of Intelligent Design, or ID. For anyone born just this morning, Intelligent Design is the claim that life, in its diversity, cannot be the outcome of biological evolution by natural selection (and other mechanisms that are taken seriously by legitimate working biologists). To publicise his case, Stein has become a leading perpetrator of Expelled, a documentary-style movie in defence of ID (calling Expelled "a documentary" may give the wrong impression of what's involved).

From all accounts, the movie alleges that the ... ahem ... bold conjecture of Intelligent Design has been kept out of academia by what is apparently spun as some kind of anti-Christian conspiracy. Individuals who have advocated ID are portrayed as victims of prejudice and injustice. Their academic freedom has been suppressed, or so we're meant to believe.

Whatever the precise content of Expelled, Intelligent Design itself is not, by any stretch of the imagination, genuine science. At best, it's the tattered remnant of what may have been genuine science back in the 19th century. You could dignify it, I suppose, by calling it a philosophical conjecture based on (supposed) inadequacies in evolutionary theory.

More than that, though, ID is a moderately sophisticated attempt to repackage Creationism and get it taught in schools.

However you define it, ID involves no actual program of scientific investigation, no testable hypotheses, nothing that could possibly lead to an integrated body of theory. The method is to raise as much doubt as possible about the credentials of evolutionary theory, usually by intellectually spurious means; the motivation is clearly religious. Proponents of Intelligent Design want to undermine genuine biological science in order to boost the credibility of that old time religion: they want to defend theistic explanations of the origin and diversity of life, and the presence of human beings on Earth.

I hope it goes without saying that evolutionary theory is not a "theory" in the colloquial sense of "hypothesis" or "conjecture". Rather, it's a well-corroborated system of theoretical knowledge - so well-corroborated, in fact, that its basic picture of the development of life over hundreds of millions of years is as indubitable as the heliocentric picture of the Solar System. The entirety of modern biological science is thoroughly permeated by evolutionary theory and would collapse without it.

Expelled opens to the public in the US on 18 April 2008, and I suppose it will be screening here in Australia some time not too long after that. We'll then be able to see the exact message. Meanwhile, we already know that it's an emotive propaganda piece in support of Intelligent Design.

One annoying aspect is that the moviemakers interviewed a high-profile biologist, PZ Myers, under false pretenses ... giving him no idea that he was being set up or how the footage would be used. They also interviewed an even higher-profile biologist, Richard Dawkins, under similar false pretenses. Myers has a formidable presence on the internet, but of course Dawkins' fame goes far, far beyond that: he has made major contributions to evolutionary theory - such as his development of the "extended phenotype" concept - as well as being the most notorious atheist in the English-speaking world. He's a best-selling author and something of a multi-media star. Dawkins' name immediately evokes certain ideas: memes; the selfish gene; the God delusion.

Well, you might say, so Myers and Dawkins were set up ... so what? Isn't this sort of tactic used by moviemakers all the time in order to get people to drop their guard? It may be shifty, but the outcome can be funny or revealing - or both. Where, you might ask, would "Borat" (Sacha Baron Cohen) and his collaborators be if they had to be honest with their various satirical targets? They waltz around with their cameras, giving out misinformation about what kind of thing they're really filming, and misleading the hapless folks on camera about how their footage will be used - usually to make the victims appear mean or foolish.

Very well. I won't get into whether that's a fair comparison.

But the whole sorry Expelled saga took an extra plot twist this week, with the ID-ists (or IDiots as they are sometimes known) shooting themselves in the feet with every available barrel - think of them carrying one of those Vietnam-era mini-guns used to great effect by Arnold Schwarzenegger's character in Terminator 2. With all barrels firmly pointed at the ground. Sorry, I mean at their vulnerable toes.

Expelled has been pre-screened on various occasions in the US, including a showing a day or two ago in Minneapolis. PZ Myers and his family went along this time, together with a few other folks, including an overseas academic. No tickets were required, but Myers had arranged for enough seats for his godless crew. Over on his excellent Pharyngula blog, he tells the story of what happened next.

As he tells it, a policeman, or perhaps a security guard, pulled Myers out of the line with the explanation that he was not allowed in the theatre. The cop/guard said that one of the movie's producers had given specific instructions that Myers must not enter. He also told Myers that he (i.e., Myers) would be arrested if he attempted to get into the screening.

On his blog, Myers continues: "I went back to my family and talked with them for a while, and then the officer came back with a theater manager, and I was told that not only wasn't I allowed in, but I had to leave the premises immediately. Like right that instant."

Wisely, Myers complied - rather than making some kind of disturbance or trying to act like a martyr.

Once expelled from the screening of Expelled, he immediately blogged about it. There is of course a degree of irony, even hypocrisy, about the Expelled folks' expelling Myers from a screening of Expelled. It's all the nastier when you think that this is a movie in which he actually appears, and with which he cooperated. The greater irony, however, is that his family and guest were allowed in ... the overseas academic being, of course, none other than Richard Dawkins! Dawkins is in the US on a promotional lecture tour, and was attending a conference of atheists in Minneapolis.

Dawkins and Myers discuss the incident over here, with Dawkins offering his (low) opinion of the movie. Meanwhile, Myers' daughter, Skatje, reviews Expelled here.

Enjoy all this, folks, but take it seriously at the same time. It's clear enough that there are people in the US (and elsewhere) who will never give up their bitter rearguard resistance to the main findings of modern biological science. These folks are intensely motivated, well-resourced, and supported by a huge proportion of the American public.

Those of who us who are committed to the cause of reason can have a laugh about this, but we mustn't just sit on the sidelines laughing. The ongoing struggle against evolutionary science has had its political successes, and it comes complete with a superficially attractive message: that both sides of the "controversy" should be taught. Forget for a moment that there is no scientific controversy, any more than there is scientific controversy about the heliocentric structure of the Solar System, the claim that certain micro-organisms cause disease, or the basic ideas of any other field of contemporary science.

Of course, there are genuine controversies at the cutting edge of evolutionary biology, as in all scientific disciplines, but they have nothing to do with the non-scientific conjecture of Intelligent Design.

This is not a struggle that any legitimate scientist, or any other rational person, ever asked for, but we are now involved in it whether we wanted to be or not. It may not always be clear what you and I can do as individuals when confronted by something like Expelled and the publicity machine that will now drive it. All the same, I do ask my readers reflect on it, and that you take a step or two to defend genuine science in whatever way you can.
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spendius
 
  1  
Sun 23 Mar, 2008 10:22 am
wande quoted-

Quote:
More than that, though, ID is a moderately sophisticated attempt to repackage Creationism and get it taught in schools.


Hey up--'ere we go again.

How about the idea that it is a last ditch and quite desperate attempt to hold back the tide of atheism.

One can only assume from Mr Blackford's fatuous sentence, which does assume we were all born this morning, (and how appropriate his name), and that this thread started at about the same time, that he wishes the tide of atheism to come right in and wash us all clean.

Very well then Mr Blackford, and his publicity agent in our little A2K world, tell us if it isn't too much of a bother exactly what life will be like with 300 million atheists. Instead of being continuously destructive, repetitive and simple minded try some constructive efforts. I'm sure we will all be enthusiasts once a glorious future under atheism is explained to us and I include in the "us" all the candidates who started out in the race for the White House not one of whom showed the slightest inclination to just take his word for it.

It is the easiest thing in the world to tear structures down. Those who do that without offering something to put in their place which is an improvement are generally, and rightly, considered to be vandals. But vandals without the guts to kick the street furniture about.

Why is the silly sod allowed to get away with saying that-

Quote:
However you define it, ID involves no actual program of scientific investigation, no testable hypotheses, nothing that could possibly lead to an integrated body of theory.


when our living society and its success, it does rule the world, is staring him in the face as an outcome of 2000 years of Christian theology and is not feasible in the slightest degree without that essential condition the basic elements of which he wants to trample into the dust.

What on earth does an incident, which is what that movie actually is, have to do with any of that. It exists to pump up a few people's egos.

Mr Blackford is swatting at a gnat. And what is much worse relying on an audience which he thinks won't notice and will be impressed by his useless and irrelevant rhetoric and which isn't even well written.

How did he get his job wande--that's a scientific question. I bet the question won't stand up to much hypothesising about or lead to any integrated theory except that of meeting the IEET's need to fill up the white space of it's pages or get busy cloning a human being, allowing abortions on request, doctoring the water supply, experimenting on animals and providing an new set of ethics based upon nothing but scientific observation of reactions with no emotional content.

Will you answer these points wande before proceeding to sully this thread with more rubbish of that nature. You are being far too subjective for a science thread. So much so that I am led to the conclusion that AIDs-ers have not one scientific bone in their bodies and are merely flying by the seat of their prejudices which were presumably only adopted in the first place for entirely selfish reasons and which are quite prepared to put the future at risk to avoid them being backed down from--such is the AIDs-er's pride.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sun 23 Mar, 2008 11:29 am
spend wrote: "...have not one scientific bone in their bodies and are merely flying by the seat of their prejudices which were presumably only adopted in the first place for entirely selfish reasons ..."

You talk about prejudices as if you know the meaning of that word. I'm sure it's not necessary to provide you with a dictionary definition, but you aren't even close to conceptualizing what "science" is with very little to support for your thesis about ID. The weakness in your arguments shows your prejudice about reality and voodoo; it's called evidence.
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spendius
 
  1  
Sun 23 Mar, 2008 12:19 pm
Answer the post c.i.

Ranting is useless. Viewers can recognise ranting by now.

Let's see a scientific bone if you claim to have one.

You just drink up that Blackford drivel because it suits your prejudices to do so. You were born without prejudices. How did you get to be a propagandist for atheism.

I can describe a society of 300 million atheists. Why can't you if you are out propagandising for it?

You are so stuck for words that you have to try to assert that somebody who can use English like me doesn't know the meaning of a word like prejudice. That's pathetic.

Let's get some evidence then. Are you in favour of a society of 300 million atheists in the US? Yes or no?

If you are, which I don't believe for one moment if you make an attempt to sketch in the outlines of the institutional arrangements that would entail, then sketch them in. You are asking us to buy a pig in a poke. Would you lay out $30 grand for a car without seeing it. Just "a car".

You can't just say "the weakness of your arguments" and forget all about pointing out what they are. I can do that. Then it is merely a question of who has hold of the megaphone.

Where's your evidence for the weakness of my arguments.

Without any your statement is pure prejudice.

Was the showing of the movie an incident? An engineered one too. A personal initiative in a small corner of human existence.

Yes-human existence. Something you completely ignore in your abstract mental meanderings.
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spendius
 
  1  
Sun 23 Mar, 2008 12:36 pm
Religion gives millions of Americans consolation and hope. Why do you want to take it away from them? And offer nothing in its place except empty concepts having no connection with their emotional needs and set them adrift in a meaningless world of random happenings just because you have got some bee in your bonnet about making a noise and having science on your side.

Why do you use the kids in the classroom as the playing field on which to disport your superficial notions relating to some utopia you can't even begin to describe. Can't they be trusted to make their own minds up when they mature? And what about all the other sources of socialisation.

Do you want to ban the word God from society? From movies, from books and from conversation?
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spendius
 
  1  
Sun 23 Mar, 2008 12:38 pm
Mr Behe & Co are not even in the argument.
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spendius
 
  1  
Sun 23 Mar, 2008 12:53 pm
STOP PRESS-

Quote:
Richard Dawkins, the atheist author of The God Delusion, believes that children should grow up reading the Bible.



Quote:
Richard Dawkins, the atheist author of The God Delusion, believes that children should grow up reading the Bible and says that he has a "soft spot" for the Church of England.

In an interview with Times2, Professor Dawkins, a Darwinian biologist, said: "You'd be rightly written off as uncultivated if you knew nothing of the Bible. You need the Bible to understand literary allusions."

And, although he resisted calling it God, he said that he believed in the possibility of a transcendent "gigantic intelligence" existing beyond the range of human experience. He added that his main target in The God Delusion was fundamentalists.

His comments were welcomed by fellow scientists.


He's an IDer.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sun 23 Mar, 2008 01:16 pm
Dawkins is only one person; his quotes has no more weight than yours or mine. Why do you give him such high regard on matters other than his specialty?
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spendius
 
  1  
Sun 23 Mar, 2008 01:20 pm
AIDsers--

Are you in favour of the US governments subsidy to rice farmers? It is hardly in line with Darwinian principles now is it?

It seems the subsidy is such that Haitian rice farmers can't compete and Haitians now eat American rice despite wages there being a fraction of American wages.

We are all good Darwinians but some are less Darwinian than others.
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