97
   

Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sun 16 Mar, 2008 10:38 am
Cultural learning can be based on ignorance; want to try cannibalism?
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Sun 16 Mar, 2008 10:49 am
Darwin himself was a devout Anglican who studied for the ministry until the death of his daughter. In his grief he rejected that formal religion and went through a period of agnosticism that many of us have experienced. In his writings, however, he states that he has always been a Theist and he never could shake a deepfelt sense and belief in a 'first cause' of all things. He never fully stopped believing in a being we call God.

Now if Darwin himself could reconcile the principle of natural selection side by side with a belief in a 'First Cause'; why is that principle so threatening to the anti-religionists now? And how can an honest curriculum deny that many if not most people see it the way Darwin saw it? To deny a teacher the ability to acknowledge that, should it be appropriate to do so, removes the curriculum from the realm of honest education and into the realm of indoctrination, pure and simple. For the teacher to presume to deny that would be be dishonest and could call his intelligence into question.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sun 16 Mar, 2008 10:52 am
Fox, It's only "threateing" when people of religion tries to impose their beliefs on others.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Sun 16 Mar, 2008 10:53 am
I agree. So the idea that a teacher should have to stick to the prescribed curriculum and would not be allowed to acknowledge that the curriculum is not the only body of thought that exists would not only be dishonest, but would be indoctrination.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Sun 16 Mar, 2008 10:55 am
Just as those countries which are officially atheist have done in every case.

What AIDs-ers intend to indoctrinate is the basic idea that we should grant the scientific elite control of all our lives. We are already half-way there.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Sun 16 Mar, 2008 10:57 am
The concept that any first cause should automatically be identified with the anthropomorphic middle eastern god is the indoctrination to which people object. You are peddling horseshit about Darwin. He left his studies of the ministry after completing the course required of him in 1831. He shipped on Beagle thereafter, and what he saw in that voyage lead him to question his former views, and especially the teleological arguments of the Reverend Paley with his "watchmaker" argument. In fact, when Annie died in 1851, twenty years after Darwin had completed his course work (which could have qualified him for holy orders, had he wanted to pursue such a career), Darwin became resolutely agnostic. His surviving children explicitly denied that he had "re-converted" to christianity, and in particular deny that he made any deathbed conversion.

Do you just make this **** up as you go along, or is there some goofy relgionist web site on which you rely?
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sun 16 Mar, 2008 11:01 am
spendius wrote:
Just as those countries which are officially atheist have done in every case.

What AIDs-ers intend to indoctrinate is the basic idea that we should grant the scientific elite control of all our lives. We are already half-way there.




No, spendi, you continue to get it wrong. Science is based on evidence that can be observed, while religion is based on poofism. You need to learn that difference to understand why ID is not science.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Sun 16 Mar, 2008 11:50 am
Settin'-Aahh wrote-

Quote:
The concept that any first cause should automatically be identified with the anthropomorphic middle eastern god is the indoctrination to which people object.


Oh dear!!

This thread is progressive. I'm not going back over all that again for the sake of some Johnny Come Lately troll who doesn't know whether to be in the debate or out of it and expects everybody to go at his sluggish pace.

c.i. wrote-

Quote:
No, spendi, you continue to get it wrong. Science is based on evidence that can be observed, while religion is based on poofism. You need to learn that difference to understand why ID is not science.


c.i. You're repeating yourself too. I can see you saying such things at 14. I certainly knew your simple argument at that age. Stick-in-the-muds are not wanted on this voyage.

Our science is based on the mathematics of the infinite and the infinitessimal and neither can be observed. They are intellectual concepts deriving from an infinite God with practical uses enough to make all other species of humans look like monkeys especially when allied to an equipment fetish.

You are confusing science and technology again. As if Einstein actually observed himself riding on a sunbeam. As if a circle can be observed to have an infinite number of tangents. We poofed ourselves into existence.

You don't know what an intellectual is.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Sun 16 Mar, 2008 11:54 am
And I would stay that way if I was you because intellectuals are not very nice people. They laugh to scorn your cherished emotional habits.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Sun 16 Mar, 2008 11:59 am
Shouldn't you all be in church at this time on a Sunday morning like the devout little Christians you all are?

Giving thanks that you're not running around in a loin cloth sucking on a bone.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Sun 16 Mar, 2008 11:59 am
I had been familiar with Kenneth Miller's point of view on ID for awhile, but his most recent book is quite thought provoking for anybody who hasn't been so indoctrinated on this subject that they are no longer capable of thinking outside a self-created mental vault:

http://a1055.g.akamai.net/f/1055/1401/5h/images.barnesandnoble.com/images/12420000/12429939.jpg

Exerpt posted in the Brown alumni magazine:

Quote:
Those who ask from science a final argument, an ultimate proof, an unassailable position from which the issue of God may be decided will always be disappointed. As a scientist I claim no new proofs, no revolutionary data, no stunning insight into nature that can tip the balance in one direction or another. But I do claim that to a believer, even in the most traditional sense, evolutionary biology is not at all the obstacle we often believe it to be. In many respects, evolution is the key to understanding our relationship with God.



When I have the privilege of giving a series of lectures on evolutionary biology to my freshman students, I usually conclude those lectures with a few remarks about the impact of evolutionary theory on other fields, from economics to politics to religion. I find a way to make clear that I do not regard evolution, properly understood, as either antireligious or antispiritual. Most students seem to appreciate those sentiments. They probably figure that Professor Miller, trying to be a nice guy and doubtlessly an agnostic, is trying to find a way to be unequivocal about evolution without offending the University chaplain.



There are always a few who find me after class and want to pin me down. They ask me point-blank: "Do you believe in God?"



And I tell each of them, "Yes."

Puzzled, they ask: "What kind of God?"



Over the years I have struggled to come up with a simple but precise answer to that question. And, eventually I found it. I believe in Darwin's God.

http://www.findingdarwinsgod.com/excerpt/index.html
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Sun 16 Mar, 2008 12:31 pm
Its a good read . However, I think Millers beliefs arent the point of the discussion since early in this "debate" wed gone over the point ad nauseum (youre a late comer foxfyre).

Please read the book then come back and make the same
Quote:
but his most recent book is quite thought provoking for anybody who hasn't been so indoctrinated on this subject that they are no longer capable of thinking outside a self-created mental vault:
.

Please dont be pattin yourself on the back till youve gone through the story. IM certain that, from your above statement , youve not read Miller yet.
Miller uses some of DArwins own statements to reveal how his religious beliefs are transcendent of his research.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sun 16 Mar, 2008 12:33 pm
Miller's thesis is wrong; there is no such thing as "common ground" between evolution and religion. One is based solely on evidence, while religion is based on faith. The two are diametrically opposed concepts.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Sun 16 Mar, 2008 12:44 pm
farmerman wrote:
Its a good read . However, I think Millers beliefs arent the point of the discussion since early in this "debate" wed gone over the point ad nauseum (youre a late comer foxfyre).

Please read the book then come back and make the same
Quote:
but his most recent book is quite thought provoking for anybody who hasn't been so indoctrinated on this subject that they are no longer capable of thinking outside a self-created mental vault:
.

Please dont be pattin yourself on the back till youve gone through the story. IM certain that, from your above statement , youve not read Miller yet.
Miller uses some of DArwins own statements to reveal how his religious beliefs are transcendent of his research.


I have the book FM and no, I have not read beyond some reviews and the first few chapters--my neice appropriated it on a recent visit and it should be back shortly and I will finish it.

My point was not to hold up the content of the book as authoritative, however, but in the philosophy of the whole point of view reconciling Darwin and ID, and Miller's point of view that it is not inappropriate to do so. And also the point of the most immediate discussion here that sticking strictly to the prescribed curriculum and only to the prescribed curriculum can be counter productive in encouraging students to think critically and to be able to see that the prescribed curriculum is not the only body of thought that exists. Also the concept that our understanding of one thing can affect many other things.

If you want children indoctrinated in one point of view only, why bother to seek out and hire teachers with high levels of education and expertise in a given subject? Any idiot can read to the kids what the state wants the kids to think.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Sun 16 Mar, 2008 02:05 pm
Foxfyre, I sense in your tentative statements, the desire to leave your door hinges swinging both ways so that you, like spendi , vcan appear to have said "see I said that already", when indeed all youre doing is trying to force an opinion.
Millers statement of a belief in "Darwin's God" should be read in the context of what Darwin included within his own communications to Hooker ,Huxley, and his wife. (Darwins letters are on the web in a large growing collection).

I think that, had you brought up the title of Millers book (written abot 6 years before his trial experience at Dover), and mentioned it without a sense of "self righteousness" that perhaps only I detected (maybe Im just a bit too sensitive on this entire issue).

No matter the case, You quoted the ending of his book "Finding...".
In its context, that statement was a summary of a series of chapters that qualify many of Millers own experience within his religion. In its entirety we have the following

Quote:
Like it or not, the values that any of us apply to our daily lives have been affected by the work of Charles Darwin. Religious people, however, have a special question to put to the reclusive naturalist of Down House. Did his work ultimately contribute to the greater glory of God, or did he deliver human nature and destiny into the hands of a professional scientific class, one profoundly hostile to religion? Does Darwin's work strengthen or weaken the idea of God?



The conventional wisdom is that whatever one may think of his science, having Mr. Darwin around certainly hasn't helped religion very much. The general thinking is that religion has been weakened by Darwinism and has been constrained to modify its view of the Creator in order to twist doctrine into conformity with the demands of evolution. As Stephen Jay Gould puts it, with obvious delight,"Now the conclusions of science must be accepted a priori, and religious interpretations must be finessed and adjusted to match unimpeachable results from the magisterium of natural knowledge!" Science calls the tune, and religion dances to its music.



This sad specter of a weakened and marginalized God drives the continuing opposition to evolution. This is why the God of the creationists requires, above all, that evolution be shown not to have functioned in the past and not to be working now. To free religion from the tyranny of Darwinism, creationists need a science that shows nature to be incomplete; they need a history of life whose events can only be explained as the result of supernatural processes. Put bluntly, the creationists are committed to finding permanent, intractable mystery in nature. To such minds, even the most perfect being we can imagine would not have been perfect enough to fashion a creation in which life would originate and evolve on its own. Nature must be flawed, static, and forever inadequate.



Science in general, and evolutionary science in particular, gives us something quite different. It reveals a universe that is dynamic, flexible, and logically complete. It presents a vision of life that spreads across the planet with endless variety and intricate beauty. It suggests a world in which our material existence is not an impossible illusion propped up by magic, but the genuine article, a world in which things are exactly what they seem. A world in which we were formed, as the Creator once told us, from the dust of the earth itself.



It is often said that a Darwinian universe is one whose randomness cannot be reconciled with meaning. I disagree. A world truly without meaning would be one in which a deity pulled the string of every human puppet, indeed of every material particle. In such a world, physical and biological events would be carefully controlled, evil and suffering could be minimized, and the outcome of historical processes strictly regulated. All things would move toward the Creator's clear, distinct, established goals. Such control and predictability, however, comes at the price of independence. Always in control, such a Creator would deny his creatures any real opportunity to know and worship him - authentic love requires freedom, not manipulation. Such freedom is best supplied by the open contingency of evolution.



One hundred and fifty years ago it might have been impossible not to couple Darwin to a grim and pointless determinism, but things look different today. Darwin's vision has expanded to encompass a new world of biology in which the links from molecule to cell and from cell to organism are becoming clear. Evolution prevails, but it does so with a richness and subtlety its original theorist may have found surprising and could not have anticipated.



We know from astronomy, for example, that the universe had a beginning, from physics that the future is both open and unpredictable, from geology and paleontology that the whole of life has been a process of change and transformation. From biology we know that our tissues are not impenetrable reservoirs of vital magic, but a stunning matrix of complex wonders, ultimately explicable in terms of biochemistry and molecular biology. With such knowledge we can see, perhaps for the first time, why a Creator would have allowed our species to be fashioned by the process of evolution.



If he so chose, the God whose presence is taught by most Western religions could have fashioned anything, ourselves included, ex nihilo, from his wish alone. In our childhood as a species, that might have been the only way in which we could imagine the fulfillment of a divine will. But we've grown up, and something remarkable has happened: we have begun to understand the physical basis of life itself. If a string of constant miracles were needed for each turn of the cell cycle or each flicker of a cilium, the hand of God would be written directly into every living thing - his presence at the edge of the human sandbox would be unmistakable. Such findings might confirm our faith, but they would also undermine our independence. How could we fairly choose between God and man when the presence and the power of the divine so obviously and so literally controlled our every breath? Our freedom as his creatures requires a little space and integrity. In the material world, it requires self-sufficiency and consistency with the laws of nature.



Evolution is neither more nor less than the result of respecting the reality and consistency of the physical world over time. To fashion material beings with an independent physical existence, any Creator would have had to produce an independent material universe in which our evolution over time was a contingent possibility. A believer in the divine accepts that God's love and gift of freedom are genuine - so genuine that they include the power to choose evil and, if we wish, to freely send ourselves to Hell. Not all believers will accept the stark conditions of that bargain, but our freedom to act has to have a physical and biological basis. Evolution and its sister sciences of genetics and molecular biology provide that basis. In biological terms, evolution is the only way a Creator could have made us the creatures we are - free beings in a world of authentic and meaningful moral and spiritual choices.



Those who ask from science a final argument, an ultimate proof, an unassailable position from which the issue of God may be decided will always be disappointed. As a scientist I claim no new proofs, no revolutionary data, no stunning insight into nature that can tip the balance in one direction or another. But I do claim that to a believer, even in the most traditional sense, evolutionary biology is not at all the obstacle we often believe it to be. In many respects, evolution is the key to understanding our relationship with God.



When I have the privilege of giving a series of lectures on evolutionary biology to my freshman students, I usually conclude those lectures with a few remarks about the impact of evolutionary theory on other fields, from economics to politics to religion. I find a way to make clear that I do not regard evolution, properly understood, as either antireligious or antispiritual. Most students seem to appreciate those sentiments. They probably figure that Professor Miller, trying to be a nice guy and doubtlessly an agnostic, is trying to find a way to be unequivocal about evolution without offending the University chaplain.



There are always a few who find me after class and want to pin me down. They ask me point-blank: "Do you believe in God?"



And I tell each of them, "Yes."

Puzzled, they ask: "What kind of God?"



Over the years I have struggled to come up with a simple but precise answer to that question. And, eventually I found it. I believe in Darwin's God.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Sun 16 Mar, 2008 02:41 pm
fm wrote-

Quote:
Foxfyre, I sense in your tentative statements, the desire to leave your door hinges swinging both ways so that you, like spendi , vcan appear to have said "see I said that already", when indeed all youre doing is trying to force an opinion.


Count me out fm. I'm not trying to force any opinions. I don't have any to force.

I'm testing your's.

We don't want you foisting your opinions on 50 million kids without them having being thouroughly tested. At least I hope we don't.

You seem to have no point of contact with real AIDs-ing as found in de Sade, La Mettrie and GB Shaw and therefore you are not a fully fledged AIDs-er but merely half-baked as I said 3 years ago.

You are playing at it from within the confines of a strictly conventional, bourgeois Christian comfort zone.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Sun 16 Mar, 2008 02:44 pm
farmerman wrote:
Foxfyre, I sense in your tentative statements, the desire to leave your door hinges swinging both ways so that you, like spendi , vcan appear to have said "see I said that already", when indeed all youre doing is trying to force an opinion.
Millers statement of a belief in "Darwin's God" should be read in the context of what Darwin included within his own communications to Hooker ,Huxley, and his wife. (Darwins letters are on the web in a large growing collection).

I think that, had you brought up the title of Millers book (written abot 6 years before his trial experience at Dover), and mentioned it without a sense of "self righteousness" that perhaps only I detected (maybe Im just a bit too sensitive on this entire issue).

No matter the case, You quoted the ending of his book "Finding...".
In its context, that statement was a summary of a series of chapters that qualify many of Millers own experience within his religion. In its entirety we have the following

Quote:
Like it or not, the values that any of us apply to our daily lives have been affected by the work of Charles Darwin. Religious people, however, have a special question to put to the reclusive naturalist of Down House. Did his work ultimately contribute to the greater glory of God, or did he deliver human nature and destiny into the hands of a professional scientific class, one profoundly hostile to religion? Does Darwin's work strengthen or weaken the idea of God?



The conventional wisdom is that whatever one may think of his science, having Mr. Darwin around certainly hasn't helped religion very much. The general thinking is that religion has been weakened by Darwinism and has been constrained to modify its view of the Creator in order to twist doctrine into conformity with the demands of evolution. As Stephen Jay Gould puts it, with obvious delight,"Now the conclusions of science must be accepted a priori, and religious interpretations must be finessed and adjusted to match unimpeachable results from the magisterium of natural knowledge!" Science calls the tune, and religion dances to its music.



This sad specter of a weakened and marginalized God drives the continuing opposition to evolution. This is why the God of the creationists requires, above all, that evolution be shown not to have functioned in the past and not to be working now. To free religion from the tyranny of Darwinism, creationists need a science that shows nature to be incomplete; they need a history of life whose events can only be explained as the result of supernatural processes. Put bluntly, the creationists are committed to finding permanent, intractable mystery in nature. To such minds, even the most perfect being we can imagine would not have been perfect enough to fashion a creation in which life would originate and evolve on its own. Nature must be flawed, static, and forever inadequate.



Science in general, and evolutionary science in particular, gives us something quite different. It reveals a universe that is dynamic, flexible, and logically complete. It presents a vision of life that spreads across the planet with endless variety and intricate beauty. It suggests a world in which our material existence is not an impossible illusion propped up by magic, but the genuine article, a world in which things are exactly what they seem. A world in which we were formed, as the Creator once told us, from the dust of the earth itself.



It is often said that a Darwinian universe is one whose randomness cannot be reconciled with meaning. I disagree. A world truly without meaning would be one in which a deity pulled the string of every human puppet, indeed of every material particle. In such a world, physical and biological events would be carefully controlled, evil and suffering could be minimized, and the outcome of historical processes strictly regulated. All things would move toward the Creator's clear, distinct, established goals. Such control and predictability, however, comes at the price of independence. Always in control, such a Creator would deny his creatures any real opportunity to know and worship him - authentic love requires freedom, not manipulation. Such freedom is best supplied by the open contingency of evolution.



One hundred and fifty years ago it might have been impossible not to couple Darwin to a grim and pointless determinism, but things look different today. Darwin's vision has expanded to encompass a new world of biology in which the links from molecule to cell and from cell to organism are becoming clear. Evolution prevails, but it does so with a richness and subtlety its original theorist may have found surprising and could not have anticipated.



We know from astronomy, for example, that the universe had a beginning, from physics that the future is both open and unpredictable, from geology and paleontology that the whole of life has been a process of change and transformation. From biology we know that our tissues are not impenetrable reservoirs of vital magic, but a stunning matrix of complex wonders, ultimately explicable in terms of biochemistry and molecular biology. With such knowledge we can see, perhaps for the first time, why a Creator would have allowed our species to be fashioned by the process of evolution.



If he so chose, the God whose presence is taught by most Western religions could have fashioned anything, ourselves included, ex nihilo, from his wish alone. In our childhood as a species, that might have been the only way in which we could imagine the fulfillment of a divine will. But we've grown up, and something remarkable has happened: we have begun to understand the physical basis of life itself. If a string of constant miracles were needed for each turn of the cell cycle or each flicker of a cilium, the hand of God would be written directly into every living thing - his presence at the edge of the human sandbox would be unmistakable. Such findings might confirm our faith, but they would also undermine our independence. How could we fairly choose between God and man when the presence and the power of the divine so obviously and so literally controlled our every breath? Our freedom as his creatures requires a little space and integrity. In the material world, it requires self-sufficiency and consistency with the laws of nature.



Evolution is neither more nor less than the result of respecting the reality and consistency of the physical world over time. To fashion material beings with an independent physical existence, any Creator would have had to produce an independent material universe in which our evolution over time was a contingent possibility. A believer in the divine accepts that God's love and gift of freedom are genuine - so genuine that they include the power to choose evil and, if we wish, to freely send ourselves to Hell. Not all believers will accept the stark conditions of that bargain, but our freedom to act has to have a physical and biological basis. Evolution and its sister sciences of genetics and molecular biology provide that basis. In biological terms, evolution is the only way a Creator could have made us the creatures we are - free beings in a world of authentic and meaningful moral and spiritual choices.



Those who ask from science a final argument, an ultimate proof, an unassailable position from which the issue of God may be decided will always be disappointed. As a scientist I claim no new proofs, no revolutionary data, no stunning insight into nature that can tip the balance in one direction or another. But I do claim that to a believer, even in the most traditional sense, evolutionary biology is not at all the obstacle we often believe it to be. In many respects, evolution is the key to understanding our relationship with God.



When I have the privilege of giving a series of lectures on evolutionary biology to my freshman students, I usually conclude those lectures with a few remarks about the impact of evolutionary theory on other fields, from economics to politics to religion. I find a way to make clear that I do not regard evolution, properly understood, as either antireligious or antispiritual. Most students seem to appreciate those sentiments. They probably figure that Professor Miller, trying to be a nice guy and doubtlessly an agnostic, is trying to find a way to be unequivocal about evolution without offending the University chaplain.



There are always a few who find me after class and want to pin me down. They ask me point-blank: "Do you believe in God?"



And I tell each of them, "Yes."

Puzzled, they ask: "What kind of God?"



Over the years I have struggled to come up with a simple but precise answer to that question. And, eventually I found it. I believe in Darwin's God.


I am not trying to force an opinion on anything. I am making an argument that indoctrinating kids is not education. It is indoctrination.

I didn't post the entirety of the piece but I did link it for anybody else to read the whole thing. The portion I excerpted I thought to be the pertinent part within the context of this discussion.

The idea is not to promote any concept of God or push any religious ideology on anybody. The idea is to strenuously object to the education system attempting to deny the existence of God and/or requiring that the teacher not acknowledge the existence of concepts of ID. As Miller quite succinctly stated, the public school has no more proof or business denigrating or denying ID than do the religious have any business pushing it in lieu of Darwin in the public school.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Sun 16 Mar, 2008 02:44 pm
farmerman wrote:
Foxfyre, I sense in your tentative statements, the desire to leave your door hinges swinging both ways so that you, like spendi , vcan appear to have said "see I said that already", when indeed all youre doing is trying to force an opinion.
Millers statement of a belief in "Darwin's God" should be read in the context of what Darwin included within his own communications to Hooker ,Huxley, and his wife. (Darwins letters are on the web in a large growing collection).

I think that, had you brought up the title of Millers book (written abot 6 years before his trial experience at Dover), and mentioned it without a sense of "self righteousness" that perhaps only I detected (maybe Im just a bit too sensitive on this entire issue).

No matter the case, You quoted the ending of his book "Finding...".
In its context, that statement was a summary of a series of chapters that qualify many of Millers own experience within his religion. In its entirety we have the following

Quote:
Like it or not, the values that any of us apply to our daily lives have been affected by the work of Charles Darwin. Religious people, however, have a special question to put to the reclusive naturalist of Down House. Did his work ultimately contribute to the greater glory of God, or did he deliver human nature and destiny into the hands of a professional scientific class, one profoundly hostile to religion? Does Darwin's work strengthen or weaken the idea of God?



The conventional wisdom is that whatever one may think of his science, having Mr. Darwin around certainly hasn't helped religion very much. The general thinking is that religion has been weakened by Darwinism and has been constrained to modify its view of the Creator in order to twist doctrine into conformity with the demands of evolution. As Stephen Jay Gould puts it, with obvious delight,"Now the conclusions of science must be accepted a priori, and religious interpretations must be finessed and adjusted to match unimpeachable results from the magisterium of natural knowledge!" Science calls the tune, and religion dances to its music.



This sad specter of a weakened and marginalized God drives the continuing opposition to evolution. This is why the God of the creationists requires, above all, that evolution be shown not to have functioned in the past and not to be working now. To free religion from the tyranny of Darwinism, creationists need a science that shows nature to be incomplete; they need a history of life whose events can only be explained as the result of supernatural processes. Put bluntly, the creationists are committed to finding permanent, intractable mystery in nature. To such minds, even the most perfect being we can imagine would not have been perfect enough to fashion a creation in which life would originate and evolve on its own. Nature must be flawed, static, and forever inadequate.



Science in general, and evolutionary science in particular, gives us something quite different. It reveals a universe that is dynamic, flexible, and logically complete. It presents a vision of life that spreads across the planet with endless variety and intricate beauty. It suggests a world in which our material existence is not an impossible illusion propped up by magic, but the genuine article, a world in which things are exactly what they seem. A world in which we were formed, as the Creator once told us, from the dust of the earth itself.



It is often said that a Darwinian universe is one whose randomness cannot be reconciled with meaning. I disagree. A world truly without meaning would be one in which a deity pulled the string of every human puppet, indeed of every material particle. In such a world, physical and biological events would be carefully controlled, evil and suffering could be minimized, and the outcome of historical processes strictly regulated. All things would move toward the Creator's clear, distinct, established goals. Such control and predictability, however, comes at the price of independence. Always in control, such a Creator would deny his creatures any real opportunity to know and worship him - authentic love requires freedom, not manipulation. Such freedom is best supplied by the open contingency of evolution.



One hundred and fifty years ago it might have been impossible not to couple Darwin to a grim and pointless determinism, but things look different today. Darwin's vision has expanded to encompass a new world of biology in which the links from molecule to cell and from cell to organism are becoming clear. Evolution prevails, but it does so with a richness and subtlety its original theorist may have found surprising and could not have anticipated.



We know from astronomy, for example, that the universe had a beginning, from physics that the future is both open and unpredictable, from geology and paleontology that the whole of life has been a process of change and transformation. From biology we know that our tissues are not impenetrable reservoirs of vital magic, but a stunning matrix of complex wonders, ultimately explicable in terms of biochemistry and molecular biology. With such knowledge we can see, perhaps for the first time, why a Creator would have allowed our species to be fashioned by the process of evolution.



If he so chose, the God whose presence is taught by most Western religions could have fashioned anything, ourselves included, ex nihilo, from his wish alone. In our childhood as a species, that might have been the only way in which we could imagine the fulfillment of a divine will. But we've grown up, and something remarkable has happened: we have begun to understand the physical basis of life itself. If a string of constant miracles were needed for each turn of the cell cycle or each flicker of a cilium, the hand of God would be written directly into every living thing - his presence at the edge of the human sandbox would be unmistakable. Such findings might confirm our faith, but they would also undermine our independence. How could we fairly choose between God and man when the presence and the power of the divine so obviously and so literally controlled our every breath? Our freedom as his creatures requires a little space and integrity. In the material world, it requires self-sufficiency and consistency with the laws of nature.



Evolution is neither more nor less than the result of respecting the reality and consistency of the physical world over time. To fashion material beings with an independent physical existence, any Creator would have had to produce an independent material universe in which our evolution over time was a contingent possibility. A believer in the divine accepts that God's love and gift of freedom are genuine - so genuine that they include the power to choose evil and, if we wish, to freely send ourselves to Hell. Not all believers will accept the stark conditions of that bargain, but our freedom to act has to have a physical and biological basis. Evolution and its sister sciences of genetics and molecular biology provide that basis. In biological terms, evolution is the only way a Creator could have made us the creatures we are - free beings in a world of authentic and meaningful moral and spiritual choices.



Those who ask from science a final argument, an ultimate proof, an unassailable position from which the issue of God may be decided will always be disappointed. As a scientist I claim no new proofs, no revolutionary data, no stunning insight into nature that can tip the balance in one direction or another. But I do claim that to a believer, even in the most traditional sense, evolutionary biology is not at all the obstacle we often believe it to be. In many respects, evolution is the key to understanding our relationship with God.



When I have the privilege of giving a series of lectures on evolutionary biology to my freshman students, I usually conclude those lectures with a few remarks about the impact of evolutionary theory on other fields, from economics to politics to religion. I find a way to make clear that I do not regard evolution, properly understood, as either antireligious or antispiritual. Most students seem to appreciate those sentiments. They probably figure that Professor Miller, trying to be a nice guy and doubtlessly an agnostic, is trying to find a way to be unequivocal about evolution without offending the University chaplain.



There are always a few who find me after class and want to pin me down. They ask me point-blank: "Do you believe in God?"



And I tell each of them, "Yes."

Puzzled, they ask: "What kind of God?"



Over the years I have struggled to come up with a simple but precise answer to that question. And, eventually I found it. I believe in Darwin's God.


I am not trying to force an opinion on anything. I am making an argument that indoctrinating kids is not education. It is indoctrination.

I didn't post the entirety of the piece but I did link it for anybody else to read the whole thing. The portion I excerpted I thought to be the pertinent part within the context of this discussion.

The idea is not to promote any concept of God or push any religious ideology on anybody. The idea is to strenuously object to the education system attempting to deny the existence of God and/or requiring that the teacher not acknowledge the existence of concepts of ID. As Miller quite succinctly implied in his own way, the public school has no more proof with which to denigrate or deny or ignore ID than do the religious have any proof by which they can push it in lieu of Darwin in the public school.

But to allow the two to coexist peacefully can indeed expand the education and remaining possibilities in the minds of the kids who will be our future teachers and scientists and other movers and shakers of our world.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sun 16 Mar, 2008 02:58 pm
Evolutionary theory scientists doesn't make any effort to prove religion to be wrong. Only the reverse seems to be at work.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Sun 16 Mar, 2008 03:19 pm
You don't keep up with the discussion very well do you C.I.
0 Replies
 
 

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