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Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

 
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Wed 13 Feb, 2008 12:47 pm
It is the good teacher's job to ensure that the student is not confused by the material. 'Exposed' means to receive enough familiarity with a work or subject to know something about what it is all about. It is for that reason, that exposure to Darwin, even for those who don't accept Darwin as sufficiently accurate to merit 'belief', is not harmful to students in any way. They need to know what a large body of scientific thought includes and, at some time, they might come to accept what truth there is in it. Nor is exposure to concepts of ID, should those arise in science class, be of any harm to Atheist students who also benefit from knowing that there are others who think differently than they do. In fact it could be most beneficial to realize that two people do not have to agree in order to be friends or allies. I think the whole world might benefit from that kind of exposure and realization.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Wed 13 Feb, 2008 03:29 pm
Foxy-

A student will become confused if she is exposed to lectures by an interventionist and a free marketeer. Assuming they are both good at the job. Her only way out of the confusion, and a student cannot be relied upon to have good defences against a persuasive teacher, and visiting lecturers are chosen because they are persuasive, is to assume that none of them know what they are talking about and thus arrive at what fm called a "jaded" view of things which is, basically, that life is far too complex for these tiny minds to grasp. There is a political agenda in choosing who is doing the visiting. One wouldn't expect your university to expose you to Simon Raven or Kingsley Amis. Unless they had agreed to dumb it down in return for the cash.

You might notice that all the examples you gave were "high status" ones. Arty. Reflecting light on all who mention them in casual conversation.

One might talk about measuring the height of a structure in geometry, or turning lime-water milky in chemistry. Or rolling balls down incline plains. (The story of my life.) No confusion with such unglamourous topics. It seems to me that there is some sort of search for excellence with which students can name-drop for the rest of their lives without necessarily knowing why there is excellence.

Let's face it--there a bit more to Shakespeare, say, than a visiting lecturer can get across in an hour. Or even a few hundred hours. And then some. The visiting lecturer comes for the money and the faculty hire him because, he's available, and they can get his autograph and have a teeny frott with him and maybe a photo for the bookcase with the gold-leaf hand-tooled unread classics in it. If the lecturer has a good agent he will get his client a 20% cut on the photographer and approval rights.

Ted Hughes sent the Shakespeare scholars into a yellow funk with his great book Shakespeare and the Goddess of Complete Being. Or- An expert's guide to what faces a young man on his journey through life.

That's the sort of thing which renders-

Quote:
'Exposed' means to receive enough familiarity with a work or subject to know something about what it is all about.


a mite oversimplified.

Quote:
It is for that reason, that exposure to Darwin, even for those who don't accept Darwin as sufficiently accurate to merit 'belief', is not harmful to students in any way


So you think that the 150 years of ranting and raving has had no point and your sweet reason, had they all had the foresight to adopt it, renders it all unnecessary. Talk about the hand that rocks the cradle. They should appoint you ambassador to the Taliban.

You must remember that there are students with IQs in the 130+ range. And they pass out things. Especially the Fonzie types. Kids learn very fast if there's some snickering.

Quote:
They need to know what a large body of scientific thought includes and, at some time, they might come to accept what truth there is in it.


You need to provide some evidence for such an assertion. I never heard of evolution at school and look how I turned out.

Quote:
In fact it could be most beneficial to realize that two people do not have to agree in order to be friends or allies.


That depends on the things being disagreed about.

Quote:
I think the whole world might benefit from that kind of exposure and realization.


As long as the population was thinned out a great deal but then there wouldn't be enough people to provide all the luxuries we are used to.

There is education, propaganda and indocrtination. The role of the first is very limited. Propaganda is when the teacher believes what he is teaching and indoctrination is when he doesn't.

I think you have a problem with the word "indoctrination" and don't like to think you have been involved in any.

It's spendi you're discussing this with.
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real life
 
  1  
Thu 14 Feb, 2008 12:25 am
parados wrote:
real life wrote:
parados wrote:
real life wrote:

I think Foxfyre's point is that just because some IDers are religious doesn't mean that all are.

There are IDers who are atheist, agnostic, etc

Not that that should make any difference to you, because you've conceded that it wasn't important to you to exclude the concept of God from the definition of 'natural process'.


Since the time of Thomas Aquinas the definition of what is "natural" has included God. Why do you suddenly think that 500 years of Christian teachings should be wrong and God can not have anything to do with nature?



Where have I made any such statement?

real life wrote:


Excluding the supernatural is not important to your definition of a 'natural process' , eh?

http://www.able2know.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=3088342#3088342

real life wrote:


I would think it very important to you as a scientist to make sure that the definition of a natural process didn't include God.


http://www.able2know.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=3088291#3088291

real life wrote:

If you introduce a supernatural element, it is no longer a natural process. Period.

http://www.able2know.org/forums/viewtopic.php?p=3051396#3051396

Aquinas believed God created the world but the world was natural. Is God a supernatural element? Is your statement definitive?


You still have not shown that I have stated or implied any such statement as what you had produced.

parados wrote:
Since the time of Thomas Aquinas the definition of what is "natural" has included God. Why do you suddenly think that 500 years of Christian teachings should be wrong and God can not have anything to do with nature?


Hint: when you ask someone 'why do you think.......?' , then you need to be able to show that they actually do hold the view you are ascribing to them.
0 Replies
 
Diest TKO
 
  1  
Thu 14 Feb, 2008 01:15 am
spendius wrote:
It's spendi you're discussing this with.


Spendi's gives us 2 cents but only hands us a shilling.

T
K
O
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Thu 14 Feb, 2008 06:24 am
I spotted this in The Sunday Times-

Quote:
Last week Jane Garvey, the BBC radio presenter, described every programme on Radio 4 as having a "massive middle-class bent".


Ms Garvey was educated at a posh independent school and it is fair to assume that some of the other young ladies who attended her school will have joined the teaching profession and bringing with them the same attitude.

And now a little parable from the same newspaper relating to the decline in Christian morality and providing a glimpse into an anti-ID future.

Quote:
From Wags to riches - via kiss and tell

Fed up nursing? Tired of teaching? Frustrated by a glass ceiling at the office? Then why not consider a rewarding career as a kiss-and-tell girl?

Francesa Sawyer, who has enjoyed success in this demanding field, explained the basics of the job to The Sun last week. "Personal assistant Francesa, 22, from Essex, has just one aim - to snare a Premier League footballer," the paper reported. "And never mind if her targets have wives and girlfriends or children."

The main requirement, Francesca explained, was to hang around in night clubs. "In London it's Kabaret on a Monday, Funky Buddha on a Tuesday, Chinawhite on a Wednesday and Movida on a Thursday. At the weekend it's anywhere in Kensington."

Does the job come with an attractive uniform? Again, Francesa is very clear. "The players are just chavs with money so their taste is pretty much that of your local builder," she says. "There is no point splashing out in designer shoes. The simple rule is to dress as sluttishly as possible and reveal as much flesh as you can."

You might think that the greatest ambition in such a girl's life was to be a Wag. And how touchingly naive you would be.

"The fairytale ending wouldn't be marrying a footballer," says Francesa. " That would be hell. Best is to use them to your advantage. A kiss-and-tell could pay for you to get on the property ladder or set up your own business.

"There isn't a single Premier League player who will stay faithful to his wife or girlfriend. They've all got lawyers on speed dial because they sleep around. They offer pay-offs and you know they've done it 20 times before."

Francesca's advice is probably now pinned up in the dressing room of every football club as a dreadful warning. Which the players will, of course, ignore.


WAGS is an acronym for "Wives and girlfriends" of professional sportsmen. They bask in reflected glory and spend money fiendishly.

If anti-IDers are scared of dealing with "social consequences" it doesn't mean everybody is.

I daresay Francesca would not be invited as a visiting lecturer at Foxy's university.
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Thu 14 Feb, 2008 09:18 am
FLORIDA UPDATE

Quote:
Bay Board Rejects Evolution
(By Megan Albright, WMBB TV News, February 14, 2008)

The question of how evolution should be taught in schools has reached Bay County.

On Wednesday the Bay District School Board voted to sign a resolution saying it does not agree with the proposed science standards as they are currently written. The decision, however, was not unanimous.

Board member Jon McFatter knows exactly how he feels about evolution and the Sunshine State Standards.

"This is yet another attempt by some educators to remove any reference of intelligent design or creation from the classroom," said McFatter.

Pat Sabiston echoed his remarks saying, "to not allow for debate from both sides is what I consider to be viewpoint discrimination."

The resolution says that the Bay County School Board "urges the State Board of Education to revise the new standards to allow for balanced, objective and intellectually open instruction in regard to evolution, teaching the scientific strengths and weaknesses of the theory rather than teaching evolution as dogmatic fact."

Board member Ginger Littleton said she could not support the resolution. She believes this is more of a political move than an educational statement. She asked if any member had read the Sunshine State Standards completely, to which no board member could say yes.

"Anyone can talk about the creation of the world, and we can talk about evolution. The standards do not preclude anyone from having a discussion. You know that bright kids are going to to do that. That's good, that's good debate, that's good dialog," Littleton added.

The State Board of Education's next meeting, where they will vote on the new science and math standards, is on February 19 in Tallahassee.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Thu 14 Feb, 2008 10:04 am
Wow, tht reads like the IDjits have some sort of entitlelment to equal time in the schools. What a bunch of maroons.
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raprap
 
  1  
Thu 14 Feb, 2008 10:26 am
New Math Standard?

http://gospelofreason.files.wordpress.com/2007/06/banner.jpg

Else all morality will go to Hell!

Rap
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spendius
 
  1  
Thu 14 Feb, 2008 10:53 am
Francesca makes it sound like it already has done.

Let's face it--"kiss and tell" is no use without a rapt audience of voyeurs eager for vicarious thrills.

But it was a non-sequitur really rap. Science as you know it is an entirely Christian invention where the number was known to have an infinite irrationality and was never 3.

Who has suggested it should be 3.00?

You're on your own with that.

"And all their hinder parts were inward."

Are your's outward dear?
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spendius
 
  1  
Thu 14 Feb, 2008 11:43 am
fm wrote-

Quote:
Wow, tht reads like the IDjits have some sort of entitlelment to equal time in the schools. What a bunch of maroons.


IDjits also think you have some sort of moral entitlement to your wife or husband and it isn't clear how AIDs-ers could arrive at such a position from their philosophy unless these categories consist of property relations for them. Objects.

BTW- I recommend that any viewers here who think fm's and rap's last posts are related to the topic or even mean anything should sign on at their local adult education centre for Remedial Science.
0 Replies
 
Vengoropatubus
 
  1  
Thu 14 Feb, 2008 04:17 pm
spendius wrote:
Francesca makes it sound like it already has done.

Let's face it--"kiss and tell" is no use without a rapt audience of voyeurs eager for vicarious thrills.

But it was a non-sequitur really rap. Science as you know it is an entirely Christian invention where the number was known to have an infinite irrationality and was never 3.

Who has suggested it should be 3.00?

You're on your own with that.

"And all their hinder parts were inward."

Are your's outward dear?


He gave you the quote from the bible Spendi, and you're wrong about science as I know it being an entirely christian invention.

"And he made the Sea of cast bronze, ten cubits from one brim to the other; it was completely round. Its height was five cubits, and a line of thirty cubits measured its circumference. "
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spendius
 
  1  
Thu 14 Feb, 2008 06:26 pm
Vengo wrote-

Quote:
He gave you the quote from the bible Spendi, and you're wrong about science as I know it being an entirely christian invention.


That's what I keep saying.

You anti-Iders haven't a scientific bone in your bodies. You're ancient Greeks.

They kept their hinder parts outward I gather.

Like John Inman tried to do in Are You Being Served.

Quote:
Cast
Captain Peacock, Mr Humphries, Mrs Slocombe, Miss Brahms, Mr Cuthbert Rumbold, Young Mr Grace, Mr Lucas, Mr Grainger, Mr Harmen, Mr Spooner, Old Mr Grace, Miss Bakewell (secretary), Nurse Crew.


Can anybody explain the "Grainger" joke?
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real life
 
  1  
Thu 14 Feb, 2008 08:19 pm
farmerman wrote:
IDjits


Same tired old rhetoric
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Diest TKO
 
  1  
Thu 14 Feb, 2008 10:35 pm
spendius wrote:
AIDs-ers


Some new rhetoric.

T
K
O
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farmerman
 
  1  
Fri 15 Feb, 2008 07:46 am
rl, attempting to direct our eyes way from the shallowness of Creationist viewpoints
Quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
farmerman wrote:
Quote:
IDjits



Same tired old rhetoric





I call em as I sees em RL. If there were a smidge of credibility in the worldview of those claiming "viewpoint discrimination", Id be among the first standing up for them. The fact that they actually deny simple scientific truths and evidence, leaves me no alternative.
In the years youve been on these threads, weve gotten nothing new, no evidence at all, just tired oft repeated junk that flies in the face of the scientific method.

If you feel offended, deal with it. As long as you choose to prattle on with the same crap every few months, Im sure I wont be the only one to remind you of the moat in your eye.
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Chumly
 
  1  
Fri 15 Feb, 2008 07:51 am
Out of curiosity, has there ever been any long term concerted efforts to breed for longeneity?

Example: dogs?
Example: upper echelon of human social structures?
0 Replies
 
Joe Nation
 
  1  
Fri 15 Feb, 2008 08:04 am
Everyone I've ever known has always tried to breed as long as they could for as long as they could.
Except Sister Mary Gilmary. She abstained but still lived a long time.

I'm curious to know what IDers think about this question: Is the Intelligent Designer still involved with the designing process and, if so, what are the most recent products, if not, then what is the role of the Intelligent Designer now?

Joe(head tilted to one side in anticipation)Nation
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Chumly
 
  1  
Fri 15 Feb, 2008 08:12 am
Hey Joe, where you goin' with that gun in your hand?
Hey Joe, I said where you goin' with that gun in your hand?
Alright. I'm goin down to shoot my old lady,
You know I gotta reduce her longevity man.
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Joe Nation
 
  1  
Fri 15 Feb, 2008 08:58 am
Chumly: I don't mean to have others ignore your question. I'm sure with all the potions and shots that humans have been taking for 100,000 years, someone has tried figuring out who to breed to in order to have long-lived progeny. All the men in my family live into their 90's unless they fall off a roof (my grandad) or off a ladder (my dad).

Breeders of animals usually are not interested in having any stock around which can no longer produce offspring. That's why you don't see many mares over 25 but you do see stallions.

Joe(Want a long lived pet. Get a parrot.)Nation
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Fri 15 Feb, 2008 09:13 am
Well, ya knowJoe, (ever heard of Nathandjoe?), I reckon that anybody who thinks all this has anything to do with God is a bit simple.

Obviously the corollary is that anybody who thinks it is about no God is a bit simple too.

Not all his chairs at home so to speak. Suffering under the handicap of a useless education and, in scientific terms, no education at all.

It's a lifestyle choice really I suppose.

We need an idea of the anti-ID lifestyle before we can come to a judgment. One might be viewed as unhinged if one promotes a philosophy in the hope that only a few will accept it. A sane person would be able to describe the outcome if everybody accepted his philosophy. The ID outcome is there to see. Those disgruntled with it are attracted to AIDsing. Like Bertha up in Dover when she said "We've" found the smoking gun. "We" eh? A junior apparatchik.

I'm very gruntled.

The Essex girl quoted yesterday fills in one of the blanks and she's only 22. Bit of a put down for lady nurses and teachers wasn't it? Body fascism some call it.

One might bring in longevity, divorce, immune system deficiency and a whole range of matters for the social and psychological sciences to study.

Anthony Burgess wrote in The Kingdom of the Wicked-

Quote:
Look at the face. There is a strong pressure behind the forehead, like dammed water trying to break loose. A great power for good or evil, and to this brain it perhaps does not matter which. It is the power that matters. Nothing lukewarm there.


He can say that again what?
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