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Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

 
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Mon 11 Feb, 2008 09:03 pm
Pauligirl--Wow, youve gotten a cover from the original Wedgie. The one that had The Creation of ADam by M.B. Jr. The new Wedge document and Discovery's entire logo shows nothing that can be construed as religious. Theyve replaced the "Pull my finger" panel and ubstituted a DNA helix.

I guess they havent been able to pull all of their original copies off the shelf. Jus Like "Of Pandas and People".

See foxie, you can present what you consider to be fair and reasonable requests, but , as long as you link yourself with INTELLIGENT DESIGN, you are judged by the company to which you link.


PS, we all know that NONE of the stated milestones or objectives of the WEDGIE have yet to be accomplished. I think they had a 2001 deadline for getting it on.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Mon 11 Feb, 2008 09:09 pm
Thanks for posting that, Pauligirl. That is specifically the form of ID that is at the center of the school controversies.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Mon 11 Feb, 2008 09:37 pm
Wikipedia touts the Discovery Institute as the platform for ID or something like that. And here I've worked in and around education most of my adult life and I've never heard of it, much less the Wedge, despite a lot of real life discussions and postings. So how mainstream could it be?
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Mon 11 Feb, 2008 09:49 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
Most IDers aren't asking for ID to be science. however, and most do not believe it is. It is fine for the science teacher to tell the kids that ID is not science if the kids ask about it. It is not fine for the teacher to presume to tell the kids that there is no basis for ID.

Hokie, I think FoxFyre is objecting to anyone summarily rejecting ID as a possibility OUTSIDE of science.

I think she is agreeing that it is not scientific, but she wants teachers to acknowledge (or simply not reject) that "anything is possible" OUTSIDE of science.
0 Replies
 
Pauligirl
 
  1  
Mon 11 Feb, 2008 10:15 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
Wikipedia touts the Discovery Institute as the platform for ID or something like that. And here I've worked in and around education most of my adult life and I've never heard of it, much less the Wedge, despite a lot of real life discussions and postings. So how mainstream could it be?


You'd be surprised.


The Discovery Institute

Genesis Of 'Intelligent Design'

By Steve Benen

While supporters of church-state separation frequently consider groups such as the Christian Coalition and Family Research Council their principal adversaries, the Discovery Institute has quietly positioned itself as the most effective and politically savvy group pushing a religious agenda in America's public school science classes.

Founded in 1991 by former Reagan administration official Bruce Chapman, the Seattle-based Institute has an operating budget of over $2 million. "Intelligent design" creationism has become such a central feature of the organization's work that it created a separate division, the Center for the Renewal of Science and Culture, to devote all of its time to that cause.

The Institute enthusiastically endorses what law professor and ID champion Philip Johnson calls the "wedge" strategy. (See "Insidious Design," page 8.) The plan is straightforward: use intelligent design as a wedge to undermine evolution with scientific-sounding arguments and thereby advance a conservative religious-political agenda.

To promote the concept, the Institute works with 48 fellows, directors and advisors who are responsible for producing research, publishing texts and hosting conferences. The Institute team includes some of the biggest names in the ID movement. Johnson serves as an advisor, while Michael Behe, David Berlinski, William Dembski and Jonathan Wells are senior fellows. All of them have advanced degrees from respected universities, giving the group a level of credibility generally denied to fundamentalist creationists at the Institute for Creation Research and Answers in Genesis Ministry.

Legitimate scientists reject the validity of intelligent design concepts, however, and are unimpressed with Institute activists' credentials.

"They're trying to make it appear like they're scientists who just disagree with other scientists," said Lawrence Krauss, professor at Case Western Reserve University. "A number of them have scientific credentials, which helps, but in no sense are they proceeding as scientists."

Over the last decade, nearly every book used in the intelligent design movement has either been distributed by the Institute or was written directly by one of the group's scholars. Of Pandas And People, Icons Of Evolution and Darwin's Black Box are all staples on the Discovery bookshelf. Institute representatives are well aware of legal restrictions on religion in public schools, so they rarely use theological criticisms of evolution in their work. Behe, for example, is a Catholic with eight home-schooled children. When asked about creationism in a February interview on National Public Radio, he said it isn't his area of expertise.

"To tell you the truth, I'm not real knowledgeable about creationism," Behe said.

The strategy of making ID appear scientific, and not religious, is intentional. The Institute's Stephen Meyer co-authored an article in the Utah Law Review in 2000 critiquing the legal landscape. While Meyer noted that the Supreme Court prohibits traditional creationism from public schools because it is based on biblical literalism, he wrote that excluding intelligent design, with its "scientific" underpinnings, would be tantamount to "viewpoint discrimination."

In order for that scheme to work, ID advocates at the Discovery Institute try desperately to hide a religious agenda. Occasionally, however, one of the Institute's fellows will slip and speak his mind.

Two years ago, at a National Religious Broadcasters meeting, the Discovery Institute's Dembski framed the ID movement in the context of Christian apologetics, a theological defense of the authority of Christianity.

"The job of apologetics is to clear the ground, to clear obstacles that prevent people from coming to the knowledge of Christ," Dembski said. "And if there's anything that I think has blocked the growth of Christ [and] the free reign of the Spirit and people accepting the Scripture and Jesus Christ, it is the Darwinian naturalistic view.... It's important that we understand the world. God has created it; Jesus is incarnate in the world."

The Institute's religious agenda has won it the backing of wealthy financiers and foundations. For example, California multi-millionaire Howard F. Ahmanson Jr., has singled out the Discovery Institute for big contributions. (Ahmanson is aligned with Christian Reconstructionism, an extreme faction of the Religious Right that seeks to replace democracy with a fundamentalist theocracy.)

The Institute also has friends on Capitol Hill. In May 2000 the Institute held a briefing in the Rayburn House Office Building that attracted members of Congress and their staffs. Sen. Sam Brownback (R-Kan.) spoke at the event.

Though the Discovery Institute describes itself as a think tank "specializing in national and international affairs," the group's real purpose is to undercut church-state separation and turn public schools into religious indoctrination centers. That's unlikely to change anytime soon.

As Institute President Bruce Chapman told The Washington Times, "[Intelligent design is] our number one project."

http://www.au.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5582&news_iv_ctrl=0&abbr=cs_&JServSessionIdr004=zchk86z251.app5b
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Mon 11 Feb, 2008 10:41 pm
rosborne979 wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
Most IDers aren't asking for ID to be science. however, and most do not believe it is. It is fine for the science teacher to tell the kids that ID is not science if the kids ask about it. It is not fine for the teacher to presume to tell the kids that there is no basis for ID.

Hokie, I think FoxFyre is objecting to anyone summarily rejecting ID as a possibility OUTSIDE of science.

I think she is agreeing that it is not scientific, but she wants teachers to acknowledge (or simply not reject) that "anything is possible" OUTSIDE of science.


What you think I think bears no resemblance to what I have said that I think. Try again a bit more objectively this time please.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Tue 12 Feb, 2008 04:33 am
Pauligirl wrote-

Quote:
But the ID folks will swear on a stack of Bibles that it has nothing to do with religion, it's just a natural product of the scientific process.


I see it the other way round. The scientific process is a product of ID.

And it would make no difference swearing over a stack of Bibles. It's not a belief. It is clearly observable in comparisons of Christian architecture and other art with that of the architecture and other art of different known cultures which had no science of our type and which never would have had.

Although I am aware that anti-IDers have not come to the site to be Abled 2 Know anything they don't know already.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Tue 12 Feb, 2008 04:54 am
Quote:
It's not a belief. It is clearly observable in comparisons of Christian architecture and other art with that of the architecture and other art of different known cultures which had no science of our type and which never would have had.



I must admit that the above spendi post is no more uncompelling than any other argument cobbled together in support of IDjicy. What is your favorite piece of "observable" evidence spendi?

Quote:
I see it the other way round. The scientific process is a product of ID.


How do you arrive at this one over there in your "Looking Glass" world?
0 Replies
 
Joe Nation
 
  1  
Tue 12 Feb, 2008 05:47 am
Foxfyre wrote:
Wikipedia touts the Discovery Institute as the platform for ID or something like that. And here I've worked in and around education most of my adult life and I've never heard of it, much less the Wedge, despite a lot of real life discussions and postings. So how mainstream could it be?


I really hate it when foxfyre plays dumb.

The above is like saying "I've been going to the movies my whole life, but I've never heard of this place called 'Hollywood'"

Joe(Like Behe saying he's not familiar with Creationism)Nation
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Tue 12 Feb, 2008 07:05 am
Foxfyre wrote:
rosborne979 wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
Most IDers aren't asking for ID to be science. however, and most do not believe it is. It is fine for the science teacher to tell the kids that ID is not science if the kids ask about it. It is not fine for the teacher to presume to tell the kids that there is no basis for ID.

Hokie, I think FoxFyre is objecting to anyone summarily rejecting ID as a possibility OUTSIDE of science.

I think she is agreeing that it is not scientific, but she wants teachers to acknowledge (or simply not reject) that "anything is possible" OUTSIDE of science.


What you think I think bears no resemblance to what I have said that I think. Try again a bit more objectively this time please.

Darn, I thought I had that right. I guess I don't know what the hell you're trying to say.
0 Replies
 
TheCorrectResponse
 
  1  
Tue 12 Feb, 2008 08:10 am
ROS graciously offers Olive branch…has it stuffed where the sun don't shine.

Betcha you've got a noticeable hitch in yer git'along this mornin'! Laughing
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Tue 12 Feb, 2008 08:14 am
rosborne979 wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
rosborne979 wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
Most IDers aren't asking for ID to be science. however, and most do not believe it is. It is fine for the science teacher to tell the kids that ID is not science if the kids ask about it. It is not fine for the teacher to presume to tell the kids that there is no basis for ID.

Hokie, I think FoxFyre is objecting to anyone summarily rejecting ID as a possibility OUTSIDE of science.

I think she is agreeing that it is not scientific, but she wants teachers to acknowledge (or simply not reject) that "anything is possible" OUTSIDE of science.


What you think I think bears no resemblance to what I have said that I think. Try again a bit more objectively this time please.

Darn, I thought I had that right. I guess I don't know what the hell you're trying to say.


I'm sorry Ros. I did misunderstand your post. Knee jerk reflex after fielding so much incorrect analysis of my position I guess, but you didn't deserve the curt response. And yes you got it right, and I do appreciate that.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Tue 12 Feb, 2008 08:17 am
Joe Nation wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
Wikipedia touts the Discovery Institute as the platform for ID or something like that. And here I've worked in and around education most of my adult life and I've never heard of it, much less the Wedge, despite a lot of real life discussions and postings. So how mainstream could it be?


I really hate it when foxfyre plays dumb.

The above is like saying "I've been going to the movies my whole life, but I've never heard of this place called 'Hollywood'"

Joe(Like Behe saying he's not familiar with Creationism)Nation


I really hate it when you presume what Foxfyre does. (I double checked to make sure this wasn't a kneejerk reaction to your post.)
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Tue 12 Feb, 2008 08:26 am
spendius wrote:
Pauligirl wrote-

Quote:
But the ID folks will swear on a stack of Bibles that it has nothing to do with religion, it's just a natural product of the scientific process.


I see it the other way round. The scientific process is a product of ID.

And it would make no difference swearing over a stack of Bibles. It's not a belief. It is clearly observable in comparisons of Christian architecture and other art with that of the architecture and other art of different known cultures which had no science of our type and which never would have had.

Although I am aware that anti-IDers have not come to the site to be Abled 2 Know anything they don't know already.


It should be obvious by now that Spendi and I are at odds on some of the fine points of our understanding of ID. Spendi, however, I think has it exactly right re the perspective of ID and science. It isn't much different from the Buddhist belief that I posted two or three days ago. All that comes into being and/or is directed by some form of intelligence. The Buddhists, not being Theists, sees it as human awareness. Theists see it as emanating from some concept of Deity. Darwin and all science that we know is a product of and happily exists within that enormously bigger picture.
0 Replies
 
TheCorrectResponse
 
  1  
Tue 12 Feb, 2008 08:29 am
Joe(I like your parenthetical endings)Nation

For it is written: Foxy stuffeth the Olive Branch up the just as well as the unjust.

TheCorrect (After all its the christian thing to do!) Response.

Na, just doesn't work for my handle Crying or Very sad
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Tue 12 Feb, 2008 08:32 am
farmerman wrote:
Pauligirl--Wow, youve gotten a cover from the original Wedgie. The one that had The Creation of ADam by M.B. Jr. The new Wedge document and Discovery's entire logo shows nothing that can be construed as religious. Theyve replaced the "Pull my finger" panel and ubstituted a DNA helix.

I guess they havent been able to pull all of their original copies off the shelf. Jus Like "Of Pandas and People".

See foxie, you can present what you consider to be fair and reasonable requests, but , as long as you link yourself with INTELLIGENT DESIGN, you are judged by the company to which you link.


PS, we all know that NONE of the stated milestones or objectives of the WEDGIE have yet to be accomplished. I think they had a 2001 deadline for getting it on.


I think Foxfyre's point is that just because some IDers are religious doesn't mean that all are.

There are IDers who are atheist, agnostic, etc

Not that that should make any difference to you, because you've conceded that it wasn't important to you to exclude the concept of God from the definition of 'natural process'.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Tue 12 Feb, 2008 08:41 am
TheCorrectResponse wrote:
Joe(I like your parenthetical endings)Nation

For it is written: Foxy stuffeth the Olive Branch up the just as well as the unjust.

TheCorrect (After all its the christian thing to do!) Response.

Na, just doesn't work for my handle Crying or Very sad


Foxfyre has apologized to the just however.
0 Replies
 
TheCorrectResponse
 
  1  
Tue 12 Feb, 2008 08:49 am
AFTER she was prodded (shamed?) by a post by one of the "non-thinking" people. After all, we non thinkers can't always be around to remind you to do the right thing.

Although - since we don't spend any time thinking, you'd seem to be able to conclude we WOULD have all the time in the world for that sort of thing. We don't, I can't explain it…its just one of those things you'll have to take on faith.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Tue 12 Feb, 2008 08:50 am
real life wrote:
farmerman wrote:
Pauligirl--Wow, youve gotten a cover from the original Wedgie. The one that had The Creation of ADam by M.B. Jr. The new Wedge document and Discovery's entire logo shows nothing that can be construed as religious. Theyve replaced the "Pull my finger" panel and ubstituted a DNA helix.

I guess they havent been able to pull all of their original copies off the shelf. Jus Like "Of Pandas and People".

See foxie, you can present what you consider to be fair and reasonable requests, but , as long as you link yourself with INTELLIGENT DESIGN, you are judged by the company to which you link.


PS, we all know that NONE of the stated milestones or objectives of the WEDGIE have yet to be accomplished. I think they had a 2001 deadline for getting it on.


I think Foxfyre's point is that just because some IDers are religious doesn't mean that all are.

There are IDers who are atheist, agnostic, etc

Not that that should make any difference to you, because you've conceded that it wasn't important to you to exclude the concept of God from the definition of 'natural process'.


Well. . . .thinking about that. I do think many agnostics have a tough time dismissing ID entirely because most agnostics have a more open mind than do most Atheists. Buddhists accept ID but from a humanistic perspective putting faith in the powers and mysteries of the human mind. I think most Atheists reject ID because it presumes that there is something out there larger or more powerful than themselves and they have chosen not to accept that.

I have a hard time thinking that anyone could accept that any kind of supreme or more advanced beings exist, however, and be able to rationalize that there is no way that such beings have not guided the processes here in any way.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Tue 12 Feb, 2008 08:55 am
TheCorrectResponse wrote:
AFTER she was prodded (shamed?) by a post by one of the "non-thinking" people. After all, we non thinkers can't always be around to remind you to do the right thing.

Although - since we don't spend any time thinking, you'd seem to be able to conclude we WOULD have all the time in the world for that sort of thing. We don't, I can't explain it…its just one of those things you'll have to take on faith.


Yes, well some of us enjoy debating topics and discussing all aspects of it. And some enjoy attacking other people. and making utterly ridiculous comments. Each to his/her own.
0 Replies
 
 

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