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Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

 
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Sun 3 Feb, 2008 09:44 am
Actually, Guiana was mostly Anglican cause Anglican was the state religion prior to separation.


Koresh and Jones were religions. Its the same as answering "when does a species become a species by sheer numbers alone"?

My comment re: Koresh and Animism was in direct to your statement that EUROPE has no such examples of charismatics (as religions , not schools ).

When I said that you had no idea of what you speak, I wsnt trying to be insulting, I was answering your assertion. Please dont post things you cannot support with any knowledge.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Sun 3 Feb, 2008 10:30 am
FLORIDA UPDATE

Quote:
The evolution of a sensitive lesson
(By RON MATUS and DONNA WINCHESTER, St. Petersburg Times, February 3, 2008)

Sometimes, Allyn Sue Baylor doesn't teach evolution in her science class, even though the state requires it. She knows of other teachers who duck the issue, too.

They fear a backlash.

"There are cases when parents have gotten really upset," said Baylor, who teaches at Palm Harbor Middle School in Pinellas County. "It's scary. You can lose your job."

Meanwhile, David Campbell, a science teacher at Ridgeview High in Clay County, near Jacksonville, heads off conflict by telling students what may seem obvious: There's a big difference between science and faith.

"The student needs to know, 'I'm not asking you to believe this. I'm just asking you to understand it,'" said Campbell, a 14-year veteran.

Which teacher is more representative of what happens in Florida classrooms?

Nobody knows.

As an emotional debate continues to unfold over Florida's proposed new science standards -- standards that students will be tested on next year -- it's surprisingly unclear how often kids raise concerns about evolution, how teachers respond, and how many avoid the topic altogether.

To answer those questions, the St. Petersburg Times attempted to contact more than 50 science teachers in the Tampa Bay area and beyond. Most did not respond.

A science supervisor in one district suggested teachers may be gun-shy given recent headlines. A spokeswoman in another district told principals to instruct their teachers not to talk to a Times reporter.

Of the 17 teachers who did respond, most said the controversy burns with far more fury outside their classrooms than it does within. Their collective take: Students and parents don't raise concerns often. And when they do, teachers try to answer respectfully and sensitively, stressing the science without stomping on faith.

"It may not satisfy them," said Charles Lassiter, a biology teacher at Fort White High School near Gainesville. "But it makes them comfortable enough to get through the unit."

Can it be that easy?

Officials at the Department of Education, the Florida Association of Science Teachers, the Florida Coalition for Science Literacy and the Florida Citizens for Science said as far as they know, no one has surveyed Florida science teachers on their concerns about teaching evolution.

But a suite of surveys outside Florida offer a nagging counterpoint, suggesting that many teachers avoid the subject.

"In short, there are too many biology teachers who won't, or don't, or can't teach evolution properly," according to an editorial in the January edition of the American Biology Teacher.

Some may be glossing over the subject because of their faith. A 1999 survey of biology teachers in Oklahoma, for example, found that 12 percent wanted to omit evolution and teach creationism instead. A similar survey in Louisiana found that 29 percent of biology teachers believed creationism should be taught, while in South Dakota, it was 39 percent.

Others may fear being dragged into a battle over belief. In a 2005 survey by the National Science Teachers Association, 31 percent of respondents said they had felt pressured by students, parents, or administrators to include creationism, intelligent design or other faith-based alternatives to evolution in their curriculum. Thirty percent said they felt pressure to de-emphasize or omit evolution.

Some teachers say the numbers ring true in Florida, too.

There is a "large subset of teachers out there who flat don't teach it because they're afraid," said Campbell, the Clay County teacher, who also is a member of the committee that helped write the draft science standards.

Once, when he and another teacher were coordinating lesson plans, they got to the part on evolution and she said, "I'm going to skip that one," Campbell said. Baylor, the teacher at Palm Harbor Middle, said she knows of two teachers who have avoided evolution because they're unsure how parents will react.

They get away with it because "virtually no one complains when a teacher does not teach evolution," said Randy Moore, a University of Minnesota professor who has edited several science education journals. "There is not an outcry for, 'Teach us evolution.'"

Would the proposed standards, which include the word "evolution," make teaching the subject any easier?

On the one hand, some say, teachers would be less likely to avoid the subject because their students would be tested on it on the high-stakes Florida Comprehensive Assessment Test. The Department of Education also is expected to conduct training on the new standards once they're rolled out.

On the other hand, if more teachers teach more evolution, classroom conflicts might increase.

"Eventually, you'd see less (conflict)," said Jason Wiles, who manages the Evolution Education Research Center at McGill University in Montreal, "The more students understand about evolution, the less likely they are to reflexively reject the scientific evidence."

The freshman in Dan McFarland's Advanced Placement biology class at Durant High had a thoughtful question.

He had read about a rock formation where radiometric dating found the layers on top appeared to be older than the layers on the bottom. How could that be, he wanted to know? And didn't that put a dent in evolutionary theory?

McFarland, a 24-year veteran, knew the student was a young-earth creationist -- somebody who believes God created the Earth a few thousand years ago -- and hardly a lone wolf at Durant in Plant City.

So, McFarland did what he always does in these situations. He told the student he didn't know the answer. But he suggested there may be scientific explanations. Perhaps the type of dating mechanism used wasn't appropriate, or maybe the formation had been affected by a geologic event that resulted in layers being switched topsy-turvy.

The student wasn't buying it. But he appreciated how McFarland handled his questions.

"He explained everything to the very best of his ability, but he didn't convince me," said Dan Barousse, now a senior who plans to study mechanical engineering in college next year. "It's three years later and I'm still a young-earth creationist."

Convincing the student, though, wasn't McFarland's goal.

"I'm not trying to disavow anyone of their religious beliefs," he said. "I'm trying to offer scientific explanations for natural phenomena. That's my job."

Many of the science teachers interviewed by the Times echoed that sentiment.

In 20 years of teaching science, Rena White, a teacher at Challenger Middle School in Cape Coral, said she has never dealt with a parent upset about evolution. (But frog dissection? That's a different story.) She tells them that their beliefs and values are important, and that they should hold on to them.

But if she asks them how old the Earth is on a test, she says, "the answer is 4.65-billion years."

It's unclear how often science teachers veer into the realm of faith, even if it's simply to make clear faith's distinction from science.

Nothing in the state science standards, either in the current version or in the proposed draft, bars teachers from doing that. But nothing explicitly tells them they can, either.

If students raise the issue, some teachers shield themselves by saying the state requires them to teach evolution. Others just say they don't have the expertise to answer. "I tell them I'm not equipped to answer their questions about creationism because I'm not a theologian," said Clifford Wagner, a 29-year veteran at Springstead High School in Hernando County.

So, some teachers don't go there. But some do. And given the importance of faith to some of their students, they say it's necessary to do so.

Some students "say they don't believe in evolution, they don't believe people came from monkeys," said Steve Crandall, an eighth-grade science teacher at Inverness Middle School in Citrus County and president of the Florida Association of Science Teachers. "You see their eyes perk up and you sense that it's an important question (to them). They deserve to be heard."

So, Crandall said, he listens. And then he tells his students this: There are some questions science can't answer.

"To me, there's room for the question of who created the universe and why," Crandall said. "But that's separate from how."
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spendius
 
  1  
Sun 3 Feb, 2008 11:47 am
fm wrote-

Quote:
Actually, Guiana was mostly Anglican cause Anglican was the state religion prior to separation.


It was a pedantic point anyway and I don't know why you brought it up.

Koresh and Jones were not religions. They were cults. And small ones. Hardly even cults. I mentioned such outcroppings because they will always be appearing in the absence of official guidance, when degrees of hysteria relating to loneliness and anomie are common and where a charismatic rhetorician ploughs the field. To think you have dealt with that point by bringing up Guiana is fatuous. The bigger cults such as the Latter Dayers, Scientology and Christian Science are seen by most people as dangerous and their definite tendency to schism is anti-religious in logic. They are fads.

Quote:
Please dont post things you cannot support with any knowledge.


Take your own advice fm and you're off the thread. You don't know anything seemingly about the Establishment Clause except some simplified mantra you have been indoctrinated with and you don't know anything about the Materialist Theory of Mind either. All you seem to know about religion is that you don't like it. You seemingly don't even know that sexuality is at the root of proper religions. Most of the other dogma is related to things accepted in every serious society.
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spendius
 
  1  
Sun 3 Feb, 2008 01:41 pm
wande brought up the topic of biology teachers avoiding evolution in their classes a long while ago. If we say that 33% of biology teachers do omit that part of the course then there must be about 16 million kids in the US with no exposure to it in schools and there is a fair chance that a good number of the rest are only given it in a fairly desultory fashion or, at least, receive it that way.

But 16 million kids is, or it used to be, many millions of parents and that's a lot of votes.

For sure the others represent twice as many votes but materialist votes can be bought and the exigencies of electoral promises means they will be roughly evenly divided between the two parties. A materialist doesn't give a damn what is taught in classes. Why should he? He might pretend to but show him the trough and it goes out the window. Evolution in class is low down on his political agenda.

That is not the case with the parents of the 33%. It is issue No1 for them. And they thus have a casting vote when the rest are split evenly. Which explains why none of the starting line-up (about 10 candidates) has declared for atheism or anti-ID.

What evidence exists that we are not evolved from pigs. Are monkeys the species of choice for aesthetic reasons. How much DNA have we in common with pigs. Cannibals call victims "long pig". Our flesh tastes like pork they say when grilled on an open fire on the end of a stick. I've never heard it said that we taste like monkey. And Orwell gave pride of place to pigs in Animal Farm.

There is a lengthy footnote on the subject on page 11 of Ted Hughes' notorious book Shakespeare and the Goddess of Complete Being under the title- "The Boar is also the Goddess of the Underworld" which my perception of the gentility of my audience prevents me quoting. The upper classes in the Pagan world had evolved Vomitoria. And there are some religions which go back to the roots which refrain from consuming pork as they also did human flesh.

And that is depite how delicious it is. A fatty pork chop, or two I suppose in the US, with salt and pepper and roasted Golden Wonders with two veg. and gravy is a pleasure not easily denied except for a very good reason.

And all those factors are well known and all we have from scientists is some readout from one of their own machines as evidence of our descent from monkeys which we take their word on. We "believe" them.

My impression is that humans are represented in comics and cartoons as pigs far more often than as monkeys.

And we snuffle about in the muck a lot as Mr Darwin did.

Monkeys don't do that. I've seen what monkeys do. My Mum took me to the zoo especially to see what monkeys do. It's hard to identify with that and anyone who does is admitting some none too dignified habits.

And monkeys won't eat anything like pigs and humans will. Would a monkey gobble up pig-swill which consists of the detrius from our dinners?

Do scientists know how much DNA we have in common with pigs. Don't they use pigs organs for transplants?

We might all have evolved from different sources. Mae West from snakes, Doris Day from a teddy bear, Mrs Thatcher from a greengrocer, Madame de Pompadour from a suction pump, Bill Clinton from a goat, TKO from a mosquito, c.i. from a speak your weight machine, wande from the Mere-cat, ros from a turnip, Foxy from a meadow buttercup, fm from the flapping screen door of an Office of Fair Trading in a derelict dustbowl town and myself, being normal, from a microbe.

Do you think this minority of biology teachers are being sensible by taking the easy way out or do you think evolution should be rammed down the kid's throat as a necessary prelude to the establishment of an atheist society which will self evidently be the eventual result of doing so?
0 Replies
 
Diest TKO
 
  1  
Sun 3 Feb, 2008 01:46 pm
spendius wrote:
What evidence exists that we are not evolved from pigs. Are monkeys the species of choice for aesthetic reasons. How much DNA have we in common with pigs.


You illustrate very well how the ID crowd commonly misunderstands what they are arguing against. You seem to not believe in evolution, but you also don't seem to understand it. If you don't understand it, how can you be so certain it is wrong.

To answer your question: Man is not from monkey. Instead, man and moneky share a common ansestor. Extrapolate that, and both pig and man and monkey and mouse and turtle and etc have a common ansestor.

T
K
O
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anton bonnier
 
  1  
Sun 3 Feb, 2008 05:17 pm
wandeljw... posted Quote

The evolution of a sensitive lesson
(By RON MATUS and DONNA WINCHESTER, St. Petersburg Times, February 3, 2008) Un quote.

I would think it would be better to have classes that only taught creationist religion and classes that only taught evolution science... then let the children decide which class they attend and preferably, creationist taught by the priests and evolution taught by the science teacher. To my mind, it's far better for the child to make up it's own mind to which is correct.
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Diest TKO
 
  1  
Sun 3 Feb, 2008 05:48 pm
If youth were able to choose what to believe before taking the classes, wouldn't that be against the idea of letting them choose for themselves?

I think evolution should be taught in a Science course.

I think ID and any other mythology should be taught in a theology or religion course.

Further, I think only one of the two should be a part of a core curriculum, the latter being an elective.

T
K
O
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spendius
 
  1  
Sun 3 Feb, 2008 05:55 pm
ab wrote-

Quote:
I would think it would be better to have classes that only taught creationist religion and classes that only taught evolution science... then let the children decide which class they attend and preferably, creationist taught by the priests and evolution taught by the science teacher. To my mind, it's far better for the child to make up it's own mind to which is correct.


And I would piss all over them if you really were prepared to leave it to the kids.

I reckon that the classes involving evolution taught by the science teacher would have one or two spekky-eyed runts in the front row who had the impression they were getting the jump on their contemporaries and my classes involving evolution, or How To Get Your End Away with Minimum Damage to Your Bank Account, a strictly Darwinian law, through Ulysses, Corinna, Gargantua, Sanchez, Frank Harris and all points east, would be humming with ideas.

On the voucher system the former would be in the same league as smocks and black unsliced bread.

Why do you think educational professionals are opposed to vouchers?
0 Replies
 
Diest TKO
 
  1  
Sun 3 Feb, 2008 08:14 pm
spendius wrote:
And I would piss all over them if you really were prepared to leave it to the kids.


It's not like we would expect that you would respect others.

T
K
O
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Mon 4 Feb, 2008 09:47 am
(next page)
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Mon 4 Feb, 2008 09:47 am
Quote:
I.D. Rakes it in and Gets Rake in Face
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spendius
 
  1  
Mon 4 Feb, 2008 09:56 am
I think anti-ID is not American. Not really. Not according to the image I have of America which has come from the image making industry of America and not out of my head.

We couldn't escape that image when we were growing up. You were the best and you looked it. I wasn't all that badly off but there was a lure in that image so I have a bit of an idea how people in poor countries see you. If you had chosen to speak French it would have been French kids who felt the pull of it and not us.

Maybe now that the Great Leap Forward has happened you don't know what to do with yourselves so you have to stand on your dignity and find something to dignify standing on your dignity with. But the image could have been distorted and standing on your dignity could well have been the constant condition, as one would expect from run-aways, and one which powered your greatness. The image being your bad conscience trying to make it all look good.

Why do you think I am so surprised about the constant use by anti-IDers of assertions, insults, gross manners and evasions. Tony Curtis took the piss out of that enough for anybody.

I had socialised a bit with an American gentleman of about 50 who was living in a council flat with some lady he had got fastened around his neck
and he was truly boring. He thought the Supreme Radiance shone out of his arse despite him being skint. He sold second mortgages. Shaved the back of his neck. No sense of humour. He had no faults. One had the impression that to be discovered he had a fault would have led to a padded cell.

But I thought he must be an exception. A2K has disabused me of that notion.

This dispute peeps out here from time to time but nobody takes any notice and it vanishes overnight. We have cabinet ministers responsible for education, with a large department advising them, and they say what goes. You don't hear any of that "if we don't teach evolution in schools British science will go to the dogs" malarkey from them. They know we are not that stupid.

Parents have a rough idea where to relocate to if they wish to have certain values inculcated in their offspring so house prices are in the minister's equations. You don't sweep the other sides pieces off the board with your arm here. Whichever side you are on. Evolution will decide and those impatient with the ineluctable modalities of its processes are not evolutionists at all. Our ministers take a benign view of our stupidity. It seems that your's deny the stupidity exists. Which is a bit of an illusion I must say.

When our PM, in attempting mass flattery, refers, as he often does, to "hard working families up and down the land" we are all aware, as he himself is, that it is a drollery.

Either anti-IDers are untypical or I got suckered with the image. There are no Katherine Hepburns and Barbara Stanwyks on A2K. Nor any Phil Silvers.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Mon 4 Feb, 2008 10:13 am
Quote:
Between the lying, bribery and lack of objectivity, the only way this movie will become a blockbuster is if the Discovery Institute starts bribing public schools to see its movie-length infomercial. Then again, I wouldn't put it past them


After all, this is a plank in the wedge documents platform for "societal Renewal". All the ID zombies can easily be led around by their olfactories. So, "paying and counting" will be MO for the film. Im surprised that BEn Stein has become a poster child. Like Michael Medved, I used to find Stein mildly enetertaining as he tried to mix his economics savvy with humor.
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spendius
 
  1  
Mon 4 Feb, 2008 10:41 am
wande quoted-

Quote:
Maybe I'm only bashing the movie because I'm a left-wing, liberal hippie who drives the Mystery Machine with my stoned talking dog. I wish that were 100 percent true, but the fact of the matter is that the film has gathered support from the creationist end of the spectrum.


That's an odd construction for a paragraph to get by an awake editor.

Is he " a left-wing, liberal hippie who drives the Mystery Machine with my stoned talking dog", or not? Or only 99.9%.

And when we read "but the fact of the matter is that", we are expecting some backing off from him being " a left-wing, liberal hippie who drives the Mystery Machine with my stoned talking dog" presumably in order to allay our suspicions that he is just such because he knows nobody takes any notice of " left-wing, liberal hippies who drive Mystery Machines with talking dogs (shagging them as well if necessary) and so he had better aim more to the centre ground, what do we get? It's that the " film has gathered support from the creationist end of the spectrum".

I beg your pardon sir. Would you mind repeating that?
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spendius
 
  1  
Mon 4 Feb, 2008 10:54 am
Anyway-- we do have a critic who wishes he was a 100% left-wing, liberal hippie who drives the Mystery Machine with his stoned talking dog.

What's holding him back then? I understood that there are no barriers in the US to realising a wish of that nature. Has he a Christian conscience residue or something.

I've driven the Mystery Machine with a stoned talking dog on more occasions that I would care to admit. Not "my" stoned talking dog though.

And from a communication point of view I would have more faith in a 100% left-wing, liberal hippie who drives the Mystery Machine with his stoned talking dog than someone who is half-baked about it and is thus ready to bolt back to the apron strings if somebody pops a balloon.

You don't know where you are with the latter condition. Sympathy aside.
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spendius
 
  1  
Mon 4 Feb, 2008 12:00 pm
fm wrote-

Quote:
Like Michael Medved, I used to find Stein mildly enetertaining as he tried to mix his economics savvy with humor.


Why don't you give us some examples of this mild entertainment, economics savvy and humour instead of just asserting it as we only have your word for it as it stands.

What is it to us or to the topic what you find mildly entertaining etc? We have nothing to go on.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Mon 4 Feb, 2008 12:28 pm
Quote:
So intelligent design and creationism sound just a bit similar, don't they? While upholders of intelligent design claim that the two views are separate, intelligent design is continuously criticized for being suspiciously similar to creationism and having very little credibility within the scientific community. The fact that countless creationist organizations support intelligent design does nothing to help their argument.
Very Happy Very Happy .
BAsically, what hes saying is that both IDjits and Cretinists are lying sacks of **** busily trying to convince everyone that they embody valid science.

Many of the Lungubrius t. on the site are easily impressed on this, thankfully though, most are not.
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real life
 
  1  
Mon 4 Feb, 2008 12:41 pm
It is sad to see you, farmerman, joining the ranks of the ad hom crowd.

I had great respect for you.
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spendius
 
  1  
Mon 4 Feb, 2008 12:51 pm
Well fm -if you want to conflate ID and Creationism there's nobody says you can't. It would be easier to conflate anti-ID with Satanism though and a piece of cake conflating it with Paganism.

But as neither of the terms are in the thread title I personally can't see the point of doing either.

Your trick, which has been rubbished on numerous occasions by me, simply means that you wish to continue talking past your opponent.

Like Darwinism being attractive to the mediocre mind so also is attacking creationism. You're in a win/win situation. The thread is in ostrich land as a matter of course. But what's that to you eh?
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spendius
 
  1  
Mon 4 Feb, 2008 01:27 pm
The removal of "God" from the national consciousness, the ultimate aim of anti-IDers, carries with it, of logical necessity, the eradication of the idea that divine retribution will be the fate of the doers of evil. There will then be no sanction on evil doing other than the risk of getting caught and that is a low risk for those surrounded by guns and tanks, batteries of lawyers, spin doctors and other facilities the powerful have at their disposal.

As Mr Thomas says in Religion and the Decline of Magic-

Quote:
The Old Testament held out the promise that God would listen to the cry of the widows and the afflicted.


A sad solace for them I know but the only one they have. The oppressed might be wrong to wish that retribution would come to their oppressors but because they are wrong does not mean that the retribution is undeserved. Without such a hope the oppressed might decide to seek retribution in the here and now. But know this--anti-ID deprives them of their only solace. Which seems a pretty mean thing to do for fat cats who have sea-going boats. It really is as if they don't give a shite for anybody.

They witter on about control of the masses as if it is some terrible thing and yet when have they ever dared look, glance even, at the uncontrolled masses.

In Shakespeare the curses are made to work and not just for dramatic effect.-

Quote:
it was a moral necessity that the poor and the injured should be believed to have this power of retaliation when all else had failed.


Our equivalent being that 'good' should win out in movies and 'bad' get its just deserts.

So anti-IDers should be in favour of de Sade's notions of virtue punished and evil rewarded coming into movies in proportion that they do in real life.
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