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Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

 
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Fri 1 Feb, 2008 06:30 am
spendius
Quote:
Can't you tell us what your point was with the name? Why play hard to get? You're not a tweeting virgin I'm inclined to think.

I couldnt come up with a relevant Spengler or WIttgenstein or SPinoza bumper sticker, so I thought Id actually respond to the question asked by you , and do it in a completely non cynical manner. Remind me to never do that again with you, you are such a waste of time.

Yet you are here and I feel a certain parental responsibility to provide clues and roadsigns to help you in your long journey to understand American culture.
0 Replies
 
solipsister
 
  1  
Fri 1 Feb, 2008 06:58 am
Three roads.
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spendius
 
  1  
Fri 1 Feb, 2008 08:25 am
fm wrote-

Quote:
I couldnt come up with a relevant Spengler or WIttgenstein or SPinoza bumper sticker, so I thought Id actually respond to the question asked by you , and do it in a completely non cynical manner. Remind me to never do that again with you, you are such a waste of time.

Yet you are here and I feel a certain parental responsibility to provide clues and roadsigns to help you in your long journey to understand American culture.


A good teacher can always come up with something. He is trained to think on his feet.

I'm glad that the odour of your piece of flatulence is screened out by our masters.

Is this the guy?

Quote:
Vine Deloria, Jr.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Western civilization, unfortunately, does not link knowledge and morality but rather, it connects knowledge and power and makes them equivalent. Today with an information `superhighway' now looming on the horizon, we are told that a lack of access to information will doom people to a life of meaninglessness -- and poverty. As we look around and observe modern industrial society, however, there is no question that information, in and of itself, is useless and that as more data is generated, ethical and moral decisions are taking on a fantasy dimension in which a `lack of evidence to indict' is the moral equivalent of the good deed."


I think American culture is a rather diffused concept. Have you any particular part of it with which you might faciliate my understanding of the whole shooting match.

I have studied Veblen and not only have I found no evidence to contradict his scientific observations but they are more and more confirmed as the economic categories he delineated, studiously eschewing the slightest hint of psychological causes or personal bias, have "trickled down" so far and to such an extent that I fear the very health of the Dow Index is dependent not only on their having done so but that they continue on their downward path accelerating at about 3% per year.

What he shows plainly, way back, as a madness, in the eyes of any self-respecting scientific thinker I mean, is in its entirety a spiritual condition of the self and one which he saved me from and which has resulted in my reaping many satisfying benefits relating to those conditions of the organism which every single animal in the evolutionary canon only ever considers worthwhile expending energy upon in contradistinction to those spiritual values, having seafood gunking up the bowthrusters for example or wearing pretty ear-rings at the school board meeting, which now seem to beset your wonderful nation. I discovered the intellectual, scientific explanation for what Rabelais and Cervantes, Shakespeare even, and many more laughed at so exhorbitantly.

There's only one hero for all of them. It's the asshole.

Very few writers are prepared to waste good ideas by putting them all into one play. One at a time makes most money. So you have to find stories in which the asshole plays a small part. We don't want to be drawing too much attention to him now do we? Spendius was a fundie. Always watch the side-kicks. Look at Stan Laurel as an instance.

My reading of Mr Deloria Jr's paragraph there is not what I thought you would approve of.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Fri 1 Feb, 2008 09:28 am
Actually fm, it isn't that I am trying to understand American culture. That is an impossible mission. I don't understand the culture within my immediate surroundings all that well.

I still can't figure out why I didn't get to take the Squire's daughter to wife when I know she had the hots for me. I was told that she blushed when my name came up when I was miles away.

As for England--forget it. I like the definition which says that a culture is the sum total of all the actions taking place within it. Measuring those is social science. There's no chance of anybody ever understanding it.

Watching America is entertaining though. In exteriors in any film of America, in a documentary, an advert, a movie or a news item I watch the backgrounds. You have a lot of potholes. There's more "rough and ready" than one might expect. I study the folks behind Mrs Clinton as well as her.

Watching America has always fascinated me. Russia as well to an extent.
What understanding I have is based on that and not on seeking it.

I think that the more you watch something the more you come to understand it and the more you try to understand it the less you actually do so.

It's essence I mean. It's soul. Its "whatness".

A BT exec. in the pub came back from a business month in California with- "They're all completely mad." I quizzed him. He couldn't elaborate beyond "Nuts".

I don't think Emily Bronte was trying to understand the minnows swimming between her fingers in the pool. It entertained her watching them. What the minnow expert at the British Museum knows about minnows isn't worth a blow by the side of what she knew about them.

Take star gazing.

Watching people who are trying to understand it, and especially those who think they do, is pretty good too. And even more when the way they understand it helps them further their career.
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Fri 1 Feb, 2008 09:37 am
FLORIDA UPDATE

Quote:
School board: Evolution is 'not a fact'
(By Glenda S. Jenkins, Fernandina Beach News-Leader, February 01, 2008)

The Nassau County School Board will ask state education officials to revise science standards "so that evolution is not presented as fact."
Nassau follows other districts in approving a similar resolution.

Board members voted unanimously Thursday to adopt the resolution recommended by Schools Superintendent John Ruis. The resolution opposes the draft Sunshine State Standards for science. It urges the standards be changed "such that evolution is not presented at the exclusion of other theories of origin of life."

The draft standards "no longer present evolution as theory" but as "the fundamental concept underlying all of biology and is supported in multiple forms of scientific evidence," reads a quote from the standards included in the resolution.

Ruis read the resolution aloud and made no further comment during the meeting. No discussion of the resolution followed. Board members Gail Cook and Janet Adkins asked the superintendent to forward the resolution to the Florida Legislature, in addition to the state board of education.

"I was hoping they had heard enough" from the public "that we wouldn't have to do this," Cook said.

The state board will meet Feb. 19 in Tallahassee to consider the science standards.

"It really is the board's decision," said Mary Jane Tappan, executive director of the Florida Office of Math and Science. The office "stayed true to the process," she said about the draft.

Cheryl Etters, spokeswoman for the Florida Department of Education, said the independent teachers and science professionals who drafted the standards are reviewing "specific and broad comments" from the public to determine "if they can be applied" to the standards.

The education department conducted four public hearings on the science standards, including one Jan. 3 in Jacksonville at the Schultz Center for Teaching and Leadership, Etters said.

The final revised standards will be available for public review online in about two weeks, Tappan said.

"We need to bring about letting the students think," Jacksonville resident David Ramseur said.

Ramseur told the school board he has served on the state's science textbook adoption committee and attended the meeting "to support the board," he said.

"What we want our students to do is to be problem solvers, not to be taught a dogmatic position," Ramseur said. "We want them to be able to think and be great scientists."

"We come as neighbors to speak from Duval County," said Marjorie Ramseur. "We're glad that you all are interested enough to take a stand and to act on a resolution in this regard."

She said evolution is an unproven theory "that must be taught with its shortcomings . . . to allow the student to analyze and criticize." And she added, "We are not asking that creation or intelligent design be taught in the classroom. If you're going to teach evolution, teach it all."

The revised standards are "going to bring Florida into the 21st century," said Joe Wolf, president of Florida Citizens for Science.

"There are religious theories of life and how it originated," he said. "In science there aren't any others accepted by the vast scientific community." Evolution has been tested for more than a century and is "is essentially the foundation of modern life sciences" and "the best we've got at this time," Wolf said.

Evolution "is not about the origin of life," he said. "That's a different subject."

Writers of the Sunshine State Standards for Science included "Express scientific explanations of the origin of life on Earth" as part of the evolution and diversity benchmark for grade 12.

"You can't have a discussion about evolution without having a discussion about the origin of species," Tappan said.

In the past, that discussion, of "how we all got here," has been presented as theory, Ruis said Monday, noting the absence of "any reference to any other theories or beliefs" in the draft science standards. "The resolution expresses the sentiment for all of us," he said.
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Fri 1 Feb, 2008 10:00 am
wandeljw wrote:
FLORIDA UPDATE

Quote:
School board: Evolution is 'not a fact'
(By Glenda S. Jenkins, Fernandina Beach News-Leader, February 01, 2008)

Board members voted unanimously Thursday to adopt the resolution recommended by Schools Superintendent John Ruis. The resolution opposes the draft Sunshine State Standards for science. It urges the standards be changed "such that evolution is not presented at the exclusion of other theories of origin of life."

What 'other' theories are they talking about?

They keep saying this, but they don't have any other theories which are acceptable as science. When are these people going to get a clue.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Fri 1 Feb, 2008 11:56 am
wandels post
Quote:
.......is not presented at the exclusion of other theories of origin of life."


OK, listen up. We let them adopt this language, and then that puts the responsibility on the school board to come up with this theory that meets the definitions wrt "SCientific Method". It would be interesting to see whether they will try to dumb down the meaning of theory .(If they do, they will be pummeled by the various colleges and U's in Florida, with the Notable exception of AVe MAria)

They will either have to
1come up with a theory that, with its attendant evidence and data, will rise to the level of a theory or

2"Im sorry , we cant come up with one"
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spendius
 
  1  
Fri 1 Feb, 2008 12:04 pm
ros wrote-

Quote:
What 'other' theories are they talking about?

They keep saying this, but they don't have any other theories which are acceptable as science. When are these people going to get a clue.


When are you going to put another record on is what viewers on here want to know ros.

This is an entertainment medium you pompous pratt. Do you really think we wish to read your n100th version of that vapid drivel. Who is it aiming to persuade? The viewer is provided with more evidence that anti-IDers are, boring, unimaginative, uninfluential gumps.

I have a theory.

Somebody in the pub last night said- "What's the difference between America and a yoghurt?"

Not knowing the answer I said "What?"

"If you put a yogurt out for two hundred years at least you get a culture", she said. (barfbarfs all round).

I wonder from whence the source of such mordant drollery springs.

What's your theory for the origin of life ros?

What use are a few, probably badly taught and imperfectly understood lessons on evolution theory to anybody as a preparation for adulthood in the average Florida workplace? Or is everybody there heading for the dizzy heights of abstruse theoretical physics or something.

Answer- no use, but they please the atheists trying to get their nose into the kid's heads. And reduce their chance of learning something useful as a bonus.

Mitt Romney is going around saying that atheists are not a part of the American experiment.

I wonder what he means by "experiment".
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farmerman
 
  1  
Fri 1 Feb, 2008 12:11 pm
Meanwhile spendi re-inserts head up his ass after speaking.

He looks rather like a bagel
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farmerman
 
  1  
Fri 1 Feb, 2008 12:12 pm
next page is reserved for spendi's spume
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spendius
 
  1  
Fri 1 Feb, 2008 12:33 pm
fm wrote-

Quote:
1come up with a theory that, with its attendant evidence and data, will rise to the level of a theory or

2"Im sorry , we cant come up with one"


I have come up with a general theory. It's scientific too. It is based upon, as I have often said, the Materialist Theory of Mind and the utility of the "physical objects" like ideas, wishes, opinions etc which it posits as being present within the bilological structure. Different ideas etc have relative utility. Religious ideas, even if only at the sub-conscious level, have worked pretty well up to now. What makes you think that the physical objects produced within the human organism by atheism will have more utility than those of a religious nature?

Answer- obviously- you anti-IDers are atheists and the physical objects inside you self-evidently have more utility because you would go to pieces if it was found to be otherwise. Your self-esteem is bet up to the limit on that.

But when you turn away from my theory, as you have done everytime I have peeped into a corner of it, obviously you end up thinking there are none. How could it be otherwise? You then declare there are none and you are on dry land. How very comforting.

As if this battle has been going on for centuries for nothing. Isn't the very presence of the Establishment Clause a proof that it is an important matter. There's no Don't Talk While You're Eating Clause in the constitution.
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spendius
 
  1  
Fri 1 Feb, 2008 12:40 pm
If you have reserved the next page for me fm it would be remiss of me not to take advantage of your generosity.

Quote:
Meanwhile spendi re-inserts head up his ass after speaking.

He looks rather like a bagel


Stumped again eh?
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Fri 1 Feb, 2008 02:34 pm
spendi
Quote:
But when you turn away from my theory, as you have done everytime I have peeped into a corner of it, obviously you end up thinking there are none. How could it be otherwise? You then declare there are none and you are on dry land. How very comforting


When you develop a "theory" let me know. Ill be the first to want to inspect it. Until then, keep up your attempts at your self congratulatory "fine" writing.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Fri 1 Feb, 2008 02:39 pm
more spendi
Quote:
I have come up with a general theory. It's scientific too. It is based upon, as I have often said, the Materialist Theory of Mind and the utility of the "physical objects" like ideas, wishes, opinions etc which it posits as being present within the bilological structure
. 'OK where is it? Your above statement tells us what "your theory" is based upon, nothing more. You may be impressed with your fevered crap, but I am not.
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spendius
 
  1  
Fri 1 Feb, 2008 02:54 pm
Okay-

One step for fm-

Are brain states physical objects or immaterial essences?
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spendius
 
  1  
Fri 1 Feb, 2008 03:02 pm
fm wrote-

Quote:
You may be impressed with your fevered crap


Did you hear about the motor mechanic who fixed a lady's car by the roadside. He got it running in 2 minutes.

"What was it?" she asked.

"Crap in the carburetter." He replied.

"Well I didn't do it", she replied huffily.
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spendius
 
  1  
Fri 1 Feb, 2008 03:08 pm
fm --

You promised us you would explain the motive behind the Establishment Clause which will show my tentative explanation to be false.

I hope it isn't the one about the writers drumming up business for the legal profession.
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spendius
 
  1  
Fri 1 Feb, 2008 03:33 pm
It says here, The Sunday Times, that Craig Venter was reported in the New Yorker to be " an assoil. He's an idiot. He is a thorn in people's sides and an egomaniac", by a consensus of fellow scientists.

It seems that his institute has 400 scientists and staff based at Rockville, Maryland, and La Jolla, California.

Why will it matter what the kids are taught if they are set to work under the guidance of a man if he is as the consensus described him.

Should we believe the consensus?

They say he is "one step closer" to creating life and that he has "re-created an "almost" exact copy of genetic material from laboratory chemicals.

And that he is "now attempting to slot it into an empty cell in the hope of creating a new life form".

Maybe this loose use of English offers more scope to the ambitious scientist than I had been led to believe by anti-IDers on here.

His next trick which he is at work on now is to "build an entirely synthetic organism which he would then use to save the world from global warming".

Going back a long while it seems that with oil at its current price biofuel is becoming an economic possibility. The only problem is that when the economics are got right food trebles in price. I gather that a 20% biofuel contribution to oil supplies means there won't be any food.
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spendius
 
  1  
Fri 1 Feb, 2008 04:06 pm
Double posted. I'm trying to economise on bandwidth. Got to do your bit to save the planet.

I'll bet Mr Venters operations are giving it a right shagging over man for man compared to a goat-herder in Chad-eh what?
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anton bonnier
 
  1  
Fri 1 Feb, 2008 04:46 pm
Quote:
School board: Evolution is 'not a fact'
(By Glenda S. Jenkins, Fernandina Beach News-Leader, February 01, 2008)

The Nassau County School Board will ask state education officials to revise science standards "so that evolution is not presented as fact."
Nassau follows other districts in approving a similar resolution.

Board members voted unanimously Thursday to adopt the resolution recommended by Schools Superintendent John Ruis. The resolution opposes the draft Sunshine State Standards for science. is not presented at the exclusion of other theories of origin of lifeIt urges the standards be changed "such that evolution." Unquote.
is not presented at the exclusion of other theories of origin of life..
Unquote.

It's also to be hoped that they will include the religiose theories of the original native Indians... after all they were there before all the bigoted Christians arrived.. plus that it is not presented at the exclusion of other theories of origin of life. of all other reliouse theories of all the other beliefs that should - could be included....addendum
is not presented at the exclusion of other theories of origin of life.
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