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Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

 
 
spendius
 
  1  
Sat 12 Jan, 2008 10:19 am
Foxy wrote-

Quote:
Well I think there is sufficient evidence for the theory of evolution/natural selection that it is proper to teach it in science class. I also think a well rounded education should include the gaps/problems that still exist in the theory of natural selection so that students are not misled into believing that science has it all figured out and there is nothing left to learn about it.


Foxy tries emollience. The trouble is my dear that there are so few reasonable and fragrant people such as yourself involved in these matters.

My guess, for what it is worth, is that Bill Foster's letter to the Pinellas County School Board is an early positioning of his law firm in case litigation should get under way.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Sat 12 Jan, 2008 10:23 am
real life wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
In one of those polls you linked, RL, is this:

CNN/USA Today/Gallup Poll. Sept. 8-11, 2005. N=1,005 adults nationwide. MoE ± 3.

"Which of the following statements comes closest to your views on the origin and development of human beings? Human beings have evolved over millions of years from other forms of life and God guided this process. Human beings have evolved over millions of years from other forms of life, but God had no part in this process. OR, God created human beings in their present form exactly the way the Bible describes it." Options rotated

Evolved,God Guided - 31%
Evolved, God Had No Part - 12%
Exactly As Bible Describes - 53%
Other (vol.) - 1%
Unsure - 3%

I would really like to see the demographics of the sample polled on this one. I do not believe a random sampling of Americans would produce a more than a small minority, much less a majority who believe human beings were created exactly as the Bible describes. I think easily 53% would agree that human kind evolved through a process including intelligent design and that the Biblical account is a theological, not scientific, explanation of that.

And despite Wandel's heroic efforts in posting source after source of efforts to teach Creationism as science suggesting a big problem, I cannot believe that more than a small number of fundamentalists would be pushing that. Any broad consensus to that end would be far more likely to be a backlash against a policy of teaching that there is no Intelligent Design.

I believe the very large number of Christians and Jews would not want Intelligent Design to be taught as science, but neither do they want science to pretend to be able to deny the reality of intelligent design. In other words, teach the kids science; even be honest about the theories of Intelligent Design and how science cannot explain all that away; but otherwise leave religion, either pro or con, out of it.


Actually as you can see, the various polls have the number at between 40%-60% on this same question.

Maybe this surprises you, but the consistent result is hard to brush off.


Maybe so, but fate has kept me in broad ecumenical circles for much of my adult life and that has included close contact with fundamentalists, charismatics, groups with polity, congregationalists, low church, high church, and everything in between. Among all these, those who take the Genesis 1 and 2 stories absolutely literally are extremely rare. The few who do even have elaborate explanations for how the two Genesis stories don't really contradict each other, but the huge majority do take the accounts as theological teachings and not intended to be consistent with science.

So again, I would really like to see the demographics of those polled. I'm not buying that the poll results show a genuine random sampling of Americans.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sat 12 Jan, 2008 11:31 am
Polls that do not agree with your own opinion rarely is credible. I wonder why?
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spendius
 
  1  
Sat 12 Jan, 2008 12:02 pm
I agree with Foxy. I don't think that poll is credible judging from my experience of American culture viewed through the sources I have seen.

The manner in which the poll was conducted is really the only matter of interest.

When you use the word "rarely" c.i. you imply that there are many other instances of Foxy not finding a poll credible.

Would you remind us of a few of them.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Sat 12 Jan, 2008 12:14 pm
real life wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
spendius wrote:
It is impossible to leave religion out of it Foxy if evolution science is taught. Evolution science, and it's hardly proper science, is being used as a wedge. It won't make the slightest difference to the kids whether that miniscule branch of knowledge is taught or not. It might be taking time and energy away from more important science teaching as it's one of the few science topics the average teacher can understand. Insisting nobody else understands it is one of their superiority gambits.

My school didn't teach evolution theory in science lessons and look how well I turned out.


Well I think there is sufficient evidence for the theory of evolution/natural selection that it is proper to teach it in science class. I also think a well rounded education should include the gaps/problems that still exist in the theory of natural selection so that students are not misled into believing that science has it all figured out and there is nothing left to learn about it.

As for 'teaching evolution being a factor pushing racial/ethnic cleansing and/or triggering events like Columbine as is suggested in the article Wandel posted, I think that's a reeeeeeally long stretch for even most fundamentalists to swallow. I have to believe the writer is sensationalizing it a bit and not providing all sides to that debate.

As for how we turned out, my school did teach evolutionary theories in science class, and here I am. How many of our co-members on this thread do you think approve of me? I'm guessing not many. Laughing


I have no problem with students learning what the theory of evolution is.

But teaching it as fact is not proper.

If the Columbine shooter cited natural selection as a 'great thing' because it justified 'getting rid of the weak', should we just close our eyes and say it isn't so?


We'll have to disagree on the theory of evolution because I do believe that it contains scientifically verifiable facts and these are important to teach as facts in science class. I do not believe that the theory of evolution explains all that there is to explain, however, and that fact should also be included in science curriculum. And yes, this does open the door for ID however much the ID-deniers wish to believe that it does not. However, while ID can be competently acknowledged as one possible explanation for the gaps in our knowledge, I do not believe we can competently teach it as science at this time.

In my view, neither the rantings of a Nazi dictator nor the anecdotal comments of a Columbine shooter should be used to condemn a scientific theory or make it evil any more than the worst parts of the Bible or the inappropriate words/actions of some deranged nut should be used to make Christianity into an irrational or evil belief. (Nor should the misguided efforts of religious groups who seek to dump evolution from the science curriculum and replace it with creationism be held up as the norm.)
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spendius
 
  1  
Sat 12 Jan, 2008 12:27 pm
Foxy wrote-

Quote:
(Nor should the misguided efforts of religious groups who seek to dump evolution from the science curriculum and replace it with creationism be held up as the norm.)


By connecting those two ideas Foxy you are doing the enemy's work. One can easily dump evolution from the SC without bringing creationism in. As I said earlier, you could replace it with some proper science.

In fact wande, a long time ago, produced survey evidence that that is what a lot of biology teachers were actually doing on the ground where the real action is.

I feel it necessary sometimes to remind everyone about the existence of real classrooms with real teachers and real students few of whom are ideal types in the anti-IDers mind.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sat 12 Jan, 2008 12:34 pm
spendi wrote: When you use the word "rarely" c.i. you imply that there are many other instances of Foxy not finding a poll credible.

Would you remind us of a few of them.

spendi, On the hootch again? Re-read what I wrote. You have misinterpreted what I wrote.
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spendius
 
  1  
Sat 12 Jan, 2008 12:40 pm
Righty-o.

I've read it again. I see no reason to change my comment. I read it a few times before as well. The "is" threw me a bit.

Quote:
ITN - Saturday, January 12 09:23 amParents are believed to be behind a surge in last-minute baptisms in the hopes of landing a place in oversubscribed Catholic schools.

According to a report, baptisms of children aged between one and 13-years-old jumped from 5.4 per cent of the total entry in church in 1958 to 30.3 per cent in 2005.

The Pastoral Research Centre Trust said the 2005 figure includes a "few" teenagers and adults over the age of 13 years old, but most of the late baptisms were of children under this age.

Tony Spencer, of the trust, said he believed the rise in late baptisms was a result of "marginal" Catholics attempting to ensure a place for their children at Catholic schools.

He said: "We are now in a situation where because of the 1959 Act, by the time you reached the 1970s, Catholic schools were no longer impoverished, and they were becoming good, very good and excellent schools.

"Because of that, the demand for places increased, not only from Catholics but from the rest of the community. It is a great compliment from the community at large to the quality of the Catholic school system."

A Department for Children, Schools and Families spokeswoman said: "As Ed Balls made clear only this week, it is for local communities to determine the types of schools that they want.

"All schools are bound by our new admissions code which stipulates fair admissions policy for all schools. Schools are under a legal duty to promote community cohesion, understanding and tolerance."


Market forces. You anti-IDers need to convince parents.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Sat 12 Jan, 2008 12:42 pm
unless you speak of home schooled "last standers" and Christian Charter SChools looking for some way to gently abandon the unverifiable beliefs of Creationism, I see noplace where ID is being taught in public schools. Thats what the fight (engineered by the Discovery Institute and the OEC's) is presently about. They are investing huge amounts of money and publishing "alternative texts" for biology. The only thing they lack is some firm foundation of evidence and a sound program of research. Hell, they dont admit it, but they dont even know where to begin. Hence we get these lukewarm "support statements" by folks like Foxy who want us to, by processes of elimination, allow ID to be taught as a "default mechanism" because Natural Selection has some gaps in it .

Where do you think ID research ought to begin?

Ill wait for an answer that isnt built out of incredulity, like
"The earth and its life is too complex to have arisen without an Intelligent force behind it" Thats not any basis for science, thats some believers bumber sticker.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Sat 12 Jan, 2008 12:54 pm
The issue that is most relevant is that the majority of the people are willing to let science and religion occupy separate realms. One has nothing to do with the other,despite what the IDers have been trying to shove down our collective throats.

We will always be fighting these Constitutional battles and each fight will be centered about a new topic. However, as each hidey place is swept aside by the USSC, the ID story gets less and less credible.

SCience isnt built upon "I believes" but upon the preponderence of evidence. REligion is not built on evidence , but on the "I believe" principle. Lets leave it at that and lets not further fuddle our kids minds

I think that I stopped believeing in a God created world and Santa Claus at about the same age.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sat 12 Jan, 2008 12:56 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
Polls that do not agree with your own opinion rarely is credible. I wonder why?


I repost my opinion for all to see: It says "polls that do not agree with your own opinion...."
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Xenoche
 
  1  
Sat 12 Jan, 2008 02:42 pm
Quote:
Market forces. You anti-IDers need to convince parents.


Why should anyone convince parents what to believe anyway? People can believe whatever they want. If they want to baptise their children to give them a good education who is anyone to stand in there way.

Whats that got to do with ID?
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Coolwhip
 
  1  
Sat 12 Jan, 2008 03:01 pm
I for one never understood why they didn't teach me non-euclidean geometry as an alternative to that damn conformist euclidean geometry.

People always say all they care about is the science. Well, why is it that the same people usually never care about all the other sciences that have equally large holes in them? The only time ordinary people are concerned with the nature of or basis for science is if it conflicts with their pre-conceived notions of how the world works, i.e. their world view. Religion.

The ID movement is a matter of religion, not science.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Sat 12 Jan, 2008 03:08 pm
Coolwhip wrote:
I for one never understood why they didn't teach me non-euclidean geometry as an alternative to that damn conformist euclidean geometry.

People always say all they care about is the science. Well, why is it that the same people usually never care about all the other sciences that have equally large holes in them? The only time ordinary people are concerned with science is if it confict with their world view. The ID movement is a matter of religion, not science.


Maybe religion or maybe not. Back before Erich Von Daniken's theories of ancient otherworldly alien invasions were pretty well debunked, everybody was talking about it and more than a few were true believers or at least hoping hard that it was all true. A belief in ID does not necessarily HAVE to presume existence of a supreme being but rather only beings more advanced than ourselves. Admittedly Von Daniken's theories didn't hold up. So far, ID hasn't been debunked.

But neither has ID been supported by anything other than perception and reason and that is why it is unsuitable in the science curriculum as anything more than one possible explanation for the holes in the scientific grids. Just my opinion.

As for science outside evolution/ID, I'm sure somebody somewhere would enjoy a discussion on non-euclidean geometry (cough) if you should care to start a thread on that subject.
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Coolwhip
 
  1  
Sat 12 Jan, 2008 03:18 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
Coolwhip wrote:
I for one never understood why they didn't teach me non-euclidean geometry as an alternative to that damn conformist euclidean geometry.

People always say all they care about is the science. Well, why is it that the same people usually never care about all the other sciences that have equally large holes in them? The only time ordinary people are concerned with science is if it confict with their world view. The ID movement is a matter of religion, not science.


Maybe religion or maybe not. Back before Erich Von Daniken's theories of ancient otherworldly alien invasions were pretty well debunked, everybody was talking about it and more than a few were true believers or at least hoping hard that it was all true. A belief in ID does not necessarily HAVE to presume existence of a supreme being but rather only beings more advanced than ourselves. Admittedly Von Daniken's theories didn't hold up. So far, ID hasn't been debunked.

But neither has ID been supported by anything other than perception and reason and that is why it is unsuitable in the science curriculum as anything more than one possible explanation for the holes in the scientific grids. Just my opinion.


While I may agree that students should be informed about controversial issues regarding any scientific theory. I do, however, not see any reason to offer ID as an alternative theory over the church of the flying spaghetti monster or the church of invisible pink unicorns. Seriously.
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spendius
 
  1  
Sat 12 Jan, 2008 03:20 pm
I apologise c.i.

I read it as "Polls that do not agree with your own opinion rarely are credible." And pronounced sarcastically.

fm wrote-

Quote:
The issue that is most relevant is that the majority of the people are willing to let science and religion occupy separate realms.


Only when thought about superficially, by which I mean only when thought about in the absence of Darwinian theory.

Bring that in and the subjects overlap so to speak. One might I suppose have a watered down Darwinianism but then one has undermined one's own position just as a thong undermines a stripper's position which becomes compromised by a residue of that which it purports to challenge and, indeed, draws attention to objects which the average parent would not, I think, wish attention to be drawn to. Such a minute censorship contributes to the mystique and it will be cast aside in those cases where some of the teachers of Darwinianism, out of the thousands of science teachers, are Wilso types which will produce schools, to continue the comparison, equivalent to the strip clubs in the red-light district of the Naples dock area.

You are naive fm. When the Wilso case, or cases, arise, media, with its bloodhound like scenting of the juice of the underbelly, will bay for its daily bread and Science will, by its own logic, need to defend him.

At least we will then have the subject polarised properly instead of all this abstract mush you anti-IDers allow yourselves to indulge in for attention seeking purposes or, in a few fortunate cases, for money.

The parents in the ITN report I posted are seeking for their children an "ambience" which teaches science whilst avoiding this tiny quaint corner of "knowledge" and the ministrations which teachers like Wilso would necessarily provide. Their daughters are promiscuous enough as it is these days without the science lessons not only legitimising their promiscuity but actually encouraging it and promoting its health giving properties which some claim is the case. Such claims, which have been made by many psychologists, only refer to individuals isolated from the claims of orderly society.

In writing on the basic subtext of classic dramas, A.A. Gill in the Sunday Times says of the adaptations of the work of Ms Austen and the Bronte sisters (excluding Emily I hope), that they are "about", and I quote-

Quote:
selling teenage virginity for cash and crenellations


and

Quote:
The most astute deconstruction of every plot nuance and character trait (in these programmes) can be found in Noel Edmonds's Deal or No Deal.


and

Quote:
and wondering if you can make your hymen stretch over 11,000 acres and 20 grand a year.


In old money I mean.

And don't the ladies love these programmes. They salivate from every pore.
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spendius
 
  1  
Sat 12 Jan, 2008 03:26 pm
And all the young men wear tight white trousers down which is stuffed a banana.
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spendius
 
  1  
Sat 12 Jan, 2008 03:30 pm
Coolwhip wrote-

Quote:
I for one never understood why they didn't teach me non-euclidean geometry as an alternative to that damn conformist euclidean geometry.


It was probably because you gave your teachers no indication that you would benefit from the former.

BTW. What is the significance of your username?
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sat 12 Jan, 2008 03:35 pm
spendi wrote: I apologise c.i.

I read it as "Polls that do not agree with your own opinion rarely are credible." And pronounced sarcastically.

fm wrote-

Quote:
The issue that is most relevant is that the majority of the people are willing to let science and religion occupy separate realms.


Apology accepted.
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Coolwhip
 
  1  
Sat 12 Jan, 2008 03:40 pm
Spendius -

My love for petroleum-based dairy substitutes.

How about yours?
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