97
   

Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

 
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Wed 12 Dec, 2007 05:37 am
Comer was given a rebuke for travel reimbursement associated with grants that she administered.
When we do grant applications , we (at least I do) compute a strict % for associated travel , some to the field and some for unanticipated conferences and symposia.
Its quite a joke to have the Evangelical Ed Board having sway over a science program administrators plans for attendence at conferences having to do with her subject or NCSE .
When I had grants admin responsibility, I routinely sent grad students to conferences in areas totally tangential to their research.

Im glad that the U of TExas at Austin scientists were associated with the letter. They had, in the past, been disinterested in what they considered "a plate sized tempest"
Ever since the D'bags who are employed at certain National Labs had been announcing their Creationist and ID beliefs and renouncing their advanced degrees (many of which were from Rice and UT), the Texas U's had become more "involved" in this national joke on science.

As spendi always asserts that "Its about the money, especially when they say it isnt about the money". In a certain fashion, hes right , because the Craig Venters and other science entrepreneurs are always looking to establish major dedicated research facilities in areas that are "science friendly" and these private institutions have an immense collateral effect in inducing support facilities to consider co-location.
Locating a series of, say. genomics centers in warm climates full of " PhD Billy-Bobs" that look forward to spending their vacations at the Creation Museum is not an inducement for, say, a geochron lab company or HP lab equipment center to be co-located especially if the religious climate will effect any economic sustainability.
Oh yeh, its that serious. Think about all the Starbucks that wont be planned for a Texas Bobble Belt "Research Facility"

Whenever some powerful Congressional Legislator proposes a "porky" reserach center to be established in their district, they always fear that issues like this, dont rear their heads during the debate process, especially now that GOPs arent narrowly in control. The issues that almost derailed the "Terrorist " center at Rice were similarly embarrasing for Texas, and at that time the GOP was securely in control.
Can science be politicized? does a wild bear **** in the woods?

When I had my career in Academia secure, I was always certain that whenever I proposed a research project for some geological exploration into strategic (Rare earth)minerals, I made sure that hefty portions of the proposed budgets were for environmental consequences and research into environmental contamination means, why? because not to do so would guarantee that a proposal wouldnt make it past stage I reviews..

There was a time in recent political history that pure science reserach would be "fast tracked" if it did have a smidge of ID leaning within the proposal , so as to please the local legislators Baptist puppetmasters.
Am I cynical? you bet.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Wed 12 Dec, 2007 07:42 am
What's "totally tangential" fm?

What exactly do "unanticipated conferences and symposia" consist of?

How can a % be "strict"?

What are viewers supposed to think about- "In a certain fashion, hes right ". Does it mean that spendi's got his eye on where the ball is but you don't wish to put it quite so baldly?

spendi's always right. He doesn't post unless he's sure of that. Money/shagging/ease of the bone/looking good/platting the sawdust. You can't go wrong. Strict Darwinism.

I think your prose would benefit from trying to avoid pejoritive expressions and also tightening up your punctuation. Punctuation is not an affectation.

I don't think you quite appreciate fm just how a real cynic could easily translate your post into words everyone can understand.

Do you think viewers would enjoy my giving it a good shredding. It lacks humility, it is naive, biassed, off topic, has no beef, is misleading, is evidence light and so generalised as to be meaningless. It only tells us something about what you think.

Did you see Foxy admit somewhere that she only passed algebra because the teacher fancied her? Now that's humility eh? Were there any similar emotional considerations factored into your computations?

In the absence of any "pork" would half the nation be derelict?
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Wed 12 Dec, 2007 07:57 am
why dont you bathe once and a while?

Whats wrong with a strict percentage (it means many quantitative things you ditzbrain)

Didnt you once say you were in science and , if so, are you able to predict that unanticipated discoveries wont lead to unanticipated symposia?


Sometimes even a monkey runs into a goldmine. You can be right
1for wrong reasons

2 and dont even know it

3 but have no idea of consequences.
.


Just be grateful that I didnt merely dismiss all your attempts at abstract thought. Now go eat a banana
Quote:
Do you think viewers would enjoy my giving it a good shredding. It lacks humility, it is naive, biassed, off topic, has no beef, is misleading, is evidence light and so generalised as to be meaningless. It only tells us something about what you think.


Why should I be any different than you. At least I know what Im talking about in this arena. As for writing, I never claimed it as a strength, thats what editors are for dummy.
Im always having my equations shortened . SCience is collaborative on the most part, as far as self absorbed, I can think of no one better qualified to comment on this trait than you spendi. Do you have pictures of yourself hanging upon the wall?

I love it when you remind us that you write letters to the Guarian and Times. , That just tells me that youre a pain in the ass to others as well.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Wed 12 Dec, 2007 11:51 am
I do have one picture of myself on the wall actually. It is the only picture I have of myself.

I won a baby show when I was 7 months old and the prize was a studio posed colour photo 24" x 18", in a tasteful art-deco frame. Of course the baby show was a stunt by the studio. I wore a pale blue, off one shoulder, shortie string vest and I'm sat on a large cushion gazing intently at a point about 2 o'clock where I would surmise Mama was standing. I really do look worthy of the judges confidence.

The thing eventually had an accident and the glass is cracked. It's current position is in the bogs at my business address.

Viewers will have to forgive me for going off topic again but I plead, in mitigation, that it is only good etiquette to answer questions one is asked.

I think a lot of scientists have a problem with their literary skills. They might be more readily understood by the general public if they put a little more effort into communicating with it. So Bertrand Russell reckons too.

I also think that if nobody volunteers to be a pain in the ass these circulating elites I've been mentioning will just run off with the whole GNP.

I'll ask you a question-

Why would an atheist not be capable of being a most pious adherent to any religious beliefs or superstitious nonsense that it suited his particular circumstances to embrace with enthusiasm and dedication?

It seems narcissistic to be unable to do that as it relies on the assumption that what he thinks is of some importance.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Thu 13 Dec, 2007 09:59 am
TEXAS UPDATE

Quote:
Teaching of evolution to go under microscope
(By KAREN AYRES SMITH / The Dallas Morning News / December 13, 2007)

Science instruction is about to be dissected in Texas.

The resignation of the state's science curriculum director last month has signaled the beginning of what is shaping up to be a contentious and politically charged revision of the science curriculum, set to begin in earnest in January.

At stake is the way teachers present evolution, the biological theory that humans and other species evolved from lower forms of life.

Former science director Chris Comer says she resigned from the Texas Education Agency to avoid being fired after officials told her she had improperly endorsed evolution. She had forwarded an e-mail announcing a speech by a prominent scholar on evolution, which the state requires schools to teach.

For all the years I was there, I would always say the teaching of evolution is part of our science curriculum. It's not just a good idea; it's the law," Ms. Comer said last week during an interview in her Leander home. "We have teachers afraid to teach it, parents who don't want it taught and parents who do want it taught. It comes from all different angles."

TEA officials say Ms. Comer, 57, also made unauthorized remarks not tied to evolution. But in disciplinary paperwork they stressed that she needed to remain neutral in what was becoming a tense period leading up to the first review of the science curriculum in a decade.

Many conservatives, including the chairman of the State Board of Education, have long wanted biology teachers in Texas to address issues that some national groups and scientists say expose weaknesses in the theory of evolution.

They stress that they aren't pushing for schools to teach creationism or intelligent design, a theory that says certain features of the universe are so complex that they are best explained by an intelligent cause, not an undirected process such as natural selection.

But their opponents argue that there is no debate: Research consistently supports evolution. They argue that attempts to discredit Charles Darwin's theory of evolution amount to sneaking God into the classroom under the guise of intelligent design.

The board must vote on any changes to the curriculum. Most board members, including the chairman, have said publicly they don't want to introduce intelligent design into the curriculum, and many of them also have said they want to keep the current language on evolution.

To some, this exercise could turn into a pivotal opportunity for change. Even small changes in the language could mean big changes in textbooks later on.

The curriculum standards will be used to develop content for textbooks in Texas and across the nation.

********************************************************

On Oct. 26, Ms. Comer received an e-mail from the National Center for Science Education announcing a speech in Austin by Barbara Forrest, an author and scholar who has criticized the intelligent design movement for undermining science education.

Dr. Forrest also testified in a prominent federal district court case in Pennsylvania in 2005 that resulted in a ruling that struck down the Dover school district's policy of introducing intelligent design in the classroom as unconstitutional.

Ms. Comer forwarded the message to some science teachers and professors with a short message: "FYI."

An hour later, Ms. Comer says, a TEA official came to her office and showed her an e-mail from Lizzette Reynolds, another official in the agency, who said the FYI e-mail was worthy of termination or reassignment because it implied that TEA supported the speaker. Ms. Reynolds came to the TEA to run the agency's educational initiatives after working with the Bush administration.

Ms. Comer said she doesn't know who forwarded the e-mail to Ms. Reynolds.

Ms. Comer said she quickly sent out another e-mail stressing that her original message didn't express the views of the TEA.

After spending the next week out of the office, Ms. Comer said, she returned to hear that she had one day to resign or she would be fired.
TEA officials presented her with a three-page memo criticizing her for speaking at a conference without permission and for questioning the leadership at the agency when Robert Scott was serving as acting commissioner. Mr. Scott had since been named commissioner.

The memo also stated that Ms. Comer's e-mail about Dr. Forrest's speech had compromised the agency's neutrality in the curriculum revision process.

"I left there in shock," Ms. Comer said. "I was so embarrassed. I've never been fired in my life."

She resigned the next day.

"Obviously this is a personnel issue I can't comment on," Mr. Scott said. "Suffice to say there are other issues as well."

The TEA posted the science director's position a few days ago. Debbie Ratcliffe, an agency spokeswoman, said Ms. Comer's replacement will probably be chosen by a panel of agency employees.

The agency hopes to fill the position in January, the same time review groups are set to begin meeting and examining each aspect of the science curriculum.

Since Ms. Comer's departure, professors and teachers across the country have lined up to support her, as well as scientifically sound lessons on evolution. She now plans to retire. She is talking to a lawyer, but she said she hasn't yet decided whether to sue the agency. She said she is not optimistic about what the final standards will say about evolution.

"The way things are being done these days I don't think rational minds have a chance," she said.

Ten Republicans and five Democrats sit on the state board. Dr. McLeroy is part of a bloc of seven social conservatives who often vote together.

Mavis Knight, a Democrat from Dallas, said she supports evolution from a scientific standpoint.

"I think intelligent design is a sophisticated slick way of easing in biblical perspective, and that is not what science is about," she said.

The Science Teachers Association of Texas has issued suggested curriculum standards that keep evolution but eliminate the specific requirement to teach the strengths and weaknesses of theories.

Dr. McLeroy said he wouldn't vote to approve the change. He said he supports the current wording and also could support an addition that requires teaching the strengths and weaknesses specific to evolution.

"I'm a Christian, and I think about how this impacts everything," Dr. McLeroy said. "Religion is not just something you put on the side. It's everything. I see us all created in the image of God. I don't believe nature is all there is."
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Thu 13 Dec, 2007 10:35 am
wande quoted-

Quote:
"Obviously this is a personnel issue I can't comment on," Mr. Scott said. "Suffice to say there are other issues as well


Any chance of details wande on the "other issues".

Even if some of them might be remotely connected to-

Quote:
Even small changes in the language could mean big changes in textbooks later on.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Thu 13 Dec, 2007 11:18 am
spendius wrote:
wande quoted-

Quote:
"Obviously this is a personnel issue I can't comment on," Mr. Scott said. "Suffice to say there are other issues as well


Any chance of details wande on the "other issues".

Even if some of them might be remotely connected to-

Quote:
Even small changes in the language could mean big changes in textbooks later on.


Other issues may have involved her general habit of not being afraid of telling others they were wrong. She was quoted as saying:
Quote:
"Did I question them when they said things that I thought were wrong? Yes, I did that," Comer said. "I did speak up for myself. I was not a shrinking violet. But then, as the director of science, I thought it was important to hear my expert opinions of what is going on."
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Thu 13 Dec, 2007 11:34 am
That's bit sweeping wande.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Thu 13 Dec, 2007 11:38 am
rosborne979 wrote:
wandeljw wrote:
TEXAS UPDATE

Quote:
Biology professors statewide react to science scandal
(By Laura Heinauer, AUSTIN AMERICAN-STATESMAN, December 11, 2007)

More than 100 biology faculty members from universities across Texas signed a letter sent Monday to state Education Commissioner Robert Scott saying Texas Education Agency employees should not have to remain neutral on evolution.

"As educators, we simply feel strongly that scientifically sound information be taught in public schools, and certainly having people sympathetic to quality evolution education at the TEA is important," Bolnick said.

What is the TEA exactly? Is that a state agency, or is it a private group?

What happens in Texas affects all schools in the US, and I'm sure this fact has not slipped by the creationists who are trying to alter basic science education in the US (and have been succeeding for many years).


One issue that is not often broached, but cannot be ignored is the production of textbooks. Every effort to "dumb down" science education can and often does result in the bowdlerization of text books, because publishing houses which have big stake in textbook publishing are anxious not to offend school boards. Texas is one of the largest purchasers of text books in the nation, merely because of the size of the population there. A few years ago, i read a detailed article on textbook selection in Texas. Of course, my interest was in history, so i can't comment on what was "right" or "wrong" with science texts. However, some of the bloopers in the history texts were incredible--one stated that Harry Truman was the President when the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor, and another alleged that the nuclear attack on Hiroshima took place in 1950. Until a journalist caught wind of such errors, and published them, the textbook selection agency in Texas (whatever that may have been) had, apparently, decided that such errors were not important to an understanding of events in American history, and had been prepared to pass those textbooks.

One can only imagine what in what they thought "good science" consisted.

Ros has a very serious, good point when he observes that what happens in Texas affects the rest of the nation.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Thu 13 Dec, 2007 12:28 pm
In a recent episode of South Park there came a point when the kids had got fed up of Al Gore and to avoid having to go hunting Manbearpig, a creature Mr Gore claimed was destroying the earth, with him as their leader, they excused themselves on the grounds that they had to go to school.

To try to keep them under his sway Mr Gore said--"I can get you excused from school."

Which had Cartman pricking up his ears and saying- "You really have the power to do that!?!??" in a tone of voice Woody Allen might use playing Aladdin.

Such an attitude to school is quite natural to intelligent kids, which these kids are, obviously, being only 6 or 7 and having brains like J.K. Galbraith, when they see their education in the hands of adults playing mind-games and office politics and who are shifting the agenda away from traditional disciplines and over to ideas about us all being shagged, health politics, feminism etc and how we are only monkeys, which is, actually, getting them excused from school whilst retaining its child-minding function.

South Park is a Saturn rocket compared to the rickshaw which transport's wande's carefully selected posts to our attention.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Thu 13 Dec, 2007 12:43 pm
Setanta wrote-

Quote:
One issue that is not often broached, but cannot be ignored is the production of textbooks. Every effort to "dumb down" science education can and often does result in the bowdlerization of text books, because publishing houses which have big stake in textbook publishing are anxious not to offend school boards.


I was telling you that years ago and you said I was talking out of my arse.

"Not often broached" indeed. Ask anybody who reads the thread whether the subject is not often broached. And if you don't wish to read the thread properly it's a bit ignorant sticking your oar into it just when you happen to feel like it for one reason or another. That's serious trolling IMO. The issue has been consistently ignored by anti-IDers every time I've mentioned it. Which is a good number of times.

What happens in Texas only affects the rest of the nation if the rest of the nation wants it to.

Still-we can't have any "very serious, good points" being made by the lone voice now can we? Only anti-IDers are allowed to make "very serious, good points" on here eh?

Listen folks--that is classic anti-ID tactics. They wake up to something they have been hiding from for years and then pretend they have suddenly had this big insight and it doesn't even rate as an insight on account of how obvious it is not unlike a plaster cast on a nose.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Thu 13 Dec, 2007 01:04 pm
FLORIDA UPDATE

Quote:
Three years ago, Florida scientists have grown a brain in a petri dish and taught it to pilot an F-22 jet simulator.

The brain-in-a-dish is the idea of Thomas DeMarse, 37, an assistant professor of biomedical engineering at the University of Florida. His work has been praised as a significant insight into the brain by leading US academics and scientific journals.

The 25,000 neurons were suspended in a specialised liquid to keep them alive and then laid across a grid of 60 electrodes in a small glass dish.

Under the microscope they looked at first like grains of sand, but soon the cells begin to connect to form what scientists are calling a "live computation device" (a brain). The electrodes measure and stimulate neural activity in the network, allowing researchers to study how the brain processes, transforms and stores information.

In the most striking experiment, the brain was linked to the jet simulator. Manipulated by the electrodes and a desktop computer, it was taught to control the flight path, even in mock hurricane-strength winds.

{ The Age | Continue reading }

To control the simulated aircraft, the neurons first receive information from the computer about flight conditions: whether the plane is flying straight and level or is tilted to the left or to the right. The neurons then analyze the data and respond by sending signals to the plane's controls. Those signals alter the flight path and new information is sent to the neurons, creating a feedback system.

"Initially when we hook up this brain to a flight simulator, it doesn't know how to control the aircraft," DeMarse said. "So you hook it up and the aircraft simply drifts randomly. And as the data comes in, it slowly modifies the (neural) network so over time, the network gradually learns to fly the aircraft."

Although the brain currently is able to control the pitch and roll of the simulated aircraft in weather conditions ranging from blue skies to stormy, hurricane-force winds, the underlying goal is a more fundamental understanding of how neurons interact as a network, DeMarse said.

"There's a lot of data out there that will tell you that the computation that's going on here isn't based on just one neuron. The computational property is actually an emergent property of hundreds or thousands of neurons cooperating to produce the amazing processing power of the brain."


I'll bet it can't tell the difference between John Smith's Extra Smooth and that Budwieser piss.
0 Replies
 
maporsche
 
  1  
Thu 13 Dec, 2007 01:36 pm
spendius wrote:
In a recent episode of South Park there came a point when the kids had got fed up of Al Gore and to avoid having to go hunting Manbearpig, a creature Mr Gore claimed was destroying the earth, with him as their leader, they excused themselves on the grounds that they had to go to school.

To try to keep them under his sway Mr Gore said--"I can get you excused from school."

Which had Cartman pricking up his ears and saying- "You really have the power to do that!?!??" in a tone of voice Woody Allen might use playing Aladdin.

Such an attitude to school is quite natural to intelligent kids, which these kids are, obviously, being only 6 or 7 and having brains like J.K. Galbraith, when they see their education in the hands of adults playing mind-games and office politics and who are shifting the agenda away from traditional disciplines and over to ideas about us all being shagged, health politics, feminism etc and how we are only monkeys, which is, actually, getting them excused from school whilst retaining its child-minding function.

South Park is a Saturn rocket compared to the rickshaw which transport's wande's carefully selected posts to our attention.



Not a recent episode....at least a year or 2 old.

And I don't see how SP helps you advance your point.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Thu 13 Dec, 2007 01:52 pm
Weeeaaal! I'll go to our 'ouse. Don't that beat everythang!
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Sat 15 Dec, 2007 07:43 am
TEXAS UPDATE

Quote:
Creation college seeks state's OK to train teachers
(By HOLLY K. HACKER / The Dallas Morning News / December 14, 2007)

Texas' debate over teaching evolution is going to college.

The nonprofit Institute for Creation Research in Dallas wants to train future science teachers in Texas and elsewhere using an online curriculum. A state advisory group gave its approval Friday; now the final say rests with the Texas Higher Education Coordinating Board, which will consider the request next month.

Some advocacy groups are attacking the creation institute's plan, saying it's an attempt to undermine the teaching of science in public schools.

"They teach distorted science," said Eugenie Scott, executive director of the California-based National Center for Science Education, which opposes teaching creationism in public schools. "Any student coming out from the ICR with a degree in science would not be competent to teach in Texas public schools."

The institute was created in 1970 by the late Henry M. Morris, a Dallas native known as the father of "creation science," the view that science - not just religion - indicates that a divine being created the Earth and all living things.

Patricia Nason, chairwoman of the institute's science education department, said that, despite the institute's name, students learn evolution along with creationism.

"Our students are given both sides," said Dr. Nason, who has a doctorate in curriculum and instruction from Texas A&M University. "They need to know both sides, and they can draw their own conclusion."

The institute, through its graduate school, wants to offer an online master's degree in science education.

According to the school's Web site, it offers typical education classes, teaching such fundamentals as how to use lab equipment, the Internet and PowerPoint in the classroom. But it also offers a class called "Advanced studies in creationism."

And the course Web page for "Curriculum design in science" gives this scenario: "The school board has asked you to serve on a committee that is examining grades 6-12 science goals. ... Both evolutionist and creationist teachers serve on the curriculum committee. How will you convince them to include creation science as well as evolution in the new scope and sequence?"

The school has offered science degrees in California for years. It offered its first graduate courses in 1981, and its first online courses about two years ago.

The institute began moving its headquarters from the San Diego area to Dallas last year, making it necessary to get approval from the state of Texas to offer degrees here.

The school now has more than 50 students taking online classes all over the world, school officials say.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Sat 15 Dec, 2007 12:11 pm
50 students!!??

What a lot of students.

Sounds like more non-work job creation to me.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Sat 15 Dec, 2007 01:40 pm
What proportion of the so called scientific establishment including its lickspittles, lackeys and dupes comes within the ambit of the well known expression-- "Monkey see- monkey do"?
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Sat 15 Dec, 2007 02:10 pm
want an exact percentage Very Happy
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Sat 15 Dec, 2007 06:15 pm
Why not? It don't see how it would do any harm.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Mon 17 Dec, 2007 04:32 pm
What does this mean-

Quote:
Wisconsin v. Yoder, 406 U.S. 205 (1972), is the case in which the United States Supreme Court found that Amish children could not be placed under compulsory education past 7th grade, as it violated their fundamental right to freedom of religion.
0 Replies
 
 

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