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Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

 
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Thu 18 Oct, 2007 01:35 pm
spendius wrote:
The quote wande is thus entirely predictable. Are you a member or otherwise affiliated with PFYA.

Is it not Spam?


spendi,

I am not a member of ANY political organization. I have a non-political position with the U.S. federal government and therefore am prohibited from engaging in political activity.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Thu 18 Oct, 2007 01:51 pm
Publicising press releases (handouts) from lobbyists seems to me to constitute political activity.

Let's face it- Ms House's statements were hardly arguments fit for a science thread.

Are you allowed to vote?
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Thu 18 Oct, 2007 02:22 pm
spendius wrote:
Wiki quote-

Quote:
Since its inception, PFAW has been particularly visible in battles over judicial nominations. It has also been active in recent years on issues including school class size, separation of church and state, civil rights, voting rights for Washington, DC, in the U.S. Congress, equal rights for lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgendered (LGBT) people, and promotion of civic participation.


The quote wande is thus entirely predictable. Are you a member or otherwise affiliated with PFYA.

Is it not Spam?


No, wande's paste isn't spam. The political aspects of these science and educational issues constitute a good portion of this thread's relevant subject matter.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Thu 18 Oct, 2007 04:44 pm
That one didn't Bernie.

It was a lobby group handout.
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spendius
 
  1  
Thu 18 Oct, 2007 04:47 pm
I can't see why you are in denial.

If that wasn't Spam nothing is Spam. Low fat I'll admit.
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maporsche
 
  1  
Thu 18 Oct, 2007 05:29 pm
spendius wrote:
I can't see why you are in denial.

If that wasn't Spam nothing is Spam. Low fat I'll admit.


It was talking about a bill in congress that this group help to change. This has NEWS written all over it.
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spendius
 
  1  
Thu 18 Oct, 2007 05:51 pm
No PFYA- No news.

What's wheat production this year? That's news.

Don't ever take corn for granted.
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Vengoropatubus
 
  1  
Thu 18 Oct, 2007 11:09 pm
I'm sorry spendi but you're wrong.
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spendius
 
  1  
Fri 19 Oct, 2007 03:54 am
Well okay.

But PFYA is a "non-profit" organisation and that's technically correct no doubt.

wande's post was a "press release". Not unlike a flyer or a leaflet. It wasn't a news report.

It isn't relevant to this topic what the PFYA put out. The people in Louisiana who support the earmark are taxpayers too. In fact I read that they get ripped off on the oil revenues from the offshore operations which they have to put up with. And $100,000 isn't much and could be justified as a cultural grant if religion is strong down there. And Senator Vitter is an elected representative of the state; PFYA are not elected by anybody. They are just an advocacy group. Axe grinders.

You'll never convince me it wasn't spam but I don't wish to make an issue out of it. I'm not bothered really whether it is or isn't either under the letter of the law or in the spirit of it.

It's a pity the Senator's response, if any, was not produced to provide balance.

The press release is unsolicited.
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Wolf ODonnell
 
  1  
Fri 19 Oct, 2007 05:44 am
Although I do admit that Wande should at least make some comment on the news article's he posts.
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blatham
 
  1  
Fri 19 Oct, 2007 08:14 am
Wolf_ODonnell wrote:
Although I do admit that Wande should at least make some comment on the news article's he posts.


I don't consider that necessary at all, wolf. My preference is for good information, careful reasoning and fresh viewpoints. I don't care where they come from. And I'd much rather spend my time absorbing that stuff than the uneducated, uncareful and cliched crap that commonly mucks up these threads.


"Spam", to clarify, reflects a number of variant usages but the one relevant to our activities here is (from dictionary.com)
Quote:
To flood any chat forum or Internet game with purposefully annoying text or macros
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Fri 19 Oct, 2007 08:39 am
Thanks, blatham. Here is some more good information. Senator Vitter has withdrawn the creationism group earmark from the appropriations bill:

Quote:
ACLU Applauds Removal of Unconstitutional "Creation Science" Earmark from Appropriations Bill
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Fri 19 Oct, 2007 10:59 am
First of all may I apologise for the length of the quote pasted herein.

It comes from the back end of an article by Thorstein Veblen which was published in 1922 in The Freeman Vol V.

The preamble concerning the errors of American policy in Europe in 1917 ends with the sentence-

Quote:
All of which invites reflections on the vagaries of dementia praecox.


Having invited himself to reflect Mr Veblen then continues-

Quote:
The current situation in America is by way of being something of a psychiatrical clinic. In order to come to an understanding of this
situation there is doubtless much else to be taken into account, but the
case of America is after all not fairly to be understood without making due allowance for a certain prevalent unbalance and derangement of mentality, presumably transient but sufficiently grave for the time being. Perhaps the commonest and plainest evidence of this unbalanced mentality is to be seen in a certain fearsome and feverish credulity with which a large proportion of the Americans are effected. As contrasted with their state of mind before the war, they are predisposed to believe in footless outrages and odious plots and machinations - "treasons, stratagems, and spoils." They are readily provoked to a headlong intolerance, and resort to unadvised atrocities as a defense against imaginary evils. There is a visible lack of composure and logical coherence, both in what they will believe and in what they are ready to do about it.
Throughout recent times the advance of exact knowledge in the material
sciences has been progressively supplanting the received barbarian beliefs in magical and supernatural agencies. This progressive substitution of matter-of-fact in the place of superstition has gone forward unremittingly and at a constantly accelerated rate, being the most characteristic and most constructive factor engaged in modern civilisation. But during the past six or eight years, since the outbreak of the war, and even more plainly since its conclusion, the churches, high and low, have been gaining both in numbers and in revenues, as well as in pontifical unction. The logical faculty appears to have suffered a notable degree of prostration throughout the American community; and all the while it is the more puerile crudities of superstitious fear that have been making particular and inordinate gains. So, for example, it is since the outbreak of the war that the Rev. Billy Sunday has effectively come into his own, and it is since the peace that he has become such a power of obscurity as to command a price as an agency of intimidation and misrule. So also it is during these last few years of the same period of nervous prostration that the Fundamentalists are effectually making headway in their campaign of obscuration designed to reinstate the Fear of God in place of common-sense. Driven by a nerve-shattering fear that some climax of ghostly atrocities is about to be visited on all persons who are found lacking in bigotry, this grosser sort of devout innocents now impugn certain findings of material science on the ground that these findings are presumed to be distasteful to a certain well-known anthropomorphic divinity, to whom His publicity-agents impute a sadistic temper and an unlimited power of abuse. These evidences
of a dilapidated mentality are growing more and more obvious. Meantime even a man of such signal good sense and humanity as Mr. Bryan is joining forces with the Rev. Billy Sunday in the propaganda of intolerance, while the gifts of so engaging a raconteur as Sir Conan Doyle are brought in to cover the flanks of this drive into intellectual twilight.
It may be said, of course, that such-like maggoty conceits are native to
the religious fancy and are due to come into the foreground in all times of
trouble; but just now the same fearsome credulity is running free and large through secular affairs as well, and its working-out is no more edifying in that department of human conduct. At the date when America formally entered the war, American popular sentiment had already been exposed to a protracted stress of apprehension and perplexity and was ready for alarms and excursions into intolerance. All manner of extravagant rumors met with ready belief, and, indeed, few were able to credit anything that was not extravagant. It was a period dominated by illusions of frightfulness and persecution. It was the peculiar misfortune of the American people that they were called into action only after their mental poise had been shattered by a long run of enervating perplexity and agitation. The measures taken under these circumstances were drawn on such lines of suspicion and intolerance as might be looked for under these circumstances. Differences of opinion were erected into statutory crimes, to which extravagant penalties were attached. Persons charged with these new-found statutory crimes were then convicted on a margin of legal interpretation. In effect, suspected persons were held guilty until proved innocent, with the doubt weighing against them. In one of these episodes of statutory frightfulness, that of the far-famed "Lusk Committee," some ten thousand persons were arrested on ungrounded suspicion, with extensive destruction of papers and property. The foreignlanguage press was laid under disabilities and the use of the mails was interrupted on general grounds of hysterical consternation. On the same grounds circulation and credence were given to extravagantly impossible fictions of Bolshevik propaganda, and the
I.W.W. were by interpretation erected into a menace to the Republic,while
the Secret Service kept faithfully on the job of making two suspicions grow where one grew before. Under cover of it all the American profiteers have diligently gone about their business of getting something for nothing at the cost of all concerned, while popular attention has been taken up with the maudlin duties of civil and religious intolerance.
The Republic has come through this era of spiritual dilapidation with an
unbalanced budget and an increased armament by use of which to "safeguard American Interests" - that is to say, negotiate profitable concessions for American oil companies - a system of passports, deportations, and restricted immigration, and a Legion of veterans organised for a draft on the public funds and the cultivation of warlike distemper. Unreflecting patriotic flurry has become a civic virtue. Drill in patriotic - that is to say military - ritual has been incorporated in the ordinary routine of the public schools, and it has come to be obligatory to stand uncovered through any rendition of the "National Anthem" - a musical composition of which one could scarcely say that it might have been worse. The State constabularies have been augmented; the right of popular assembly freely interfered with; establishments of mercenary "gunmen," under the formal name of detective-
agencies, have increased their output; the Ku-Klux-Klan has been reanimated and reorganised for extra-legal intimidation of citizens; and the American Legion now and again enforces "law and order" on the unfortunate by extra-legal measures. Meantime the profiteers do business as usual and the Federal authorities are busied with a schedule of increased protective duties designed to enhance the profits of their business.
Those traits in this current situation wherein it is different from the
relatively sober state of things before the war, have been injected by
America's participation in the war; and it is, in effect, for their failure
to join hands and help in working up this state of things that the
conscientious objectors, draft-evaders, I.W.W.'s, Communists, have been
penalised in a manner unexampled in American history. This is not saying
that the pacifists, conscientious objectors, etc., are not statutory
criminals or that they foresaw such an outcome of the traffic against which they protested, or that they were moved by peculiarly high-minded or unselfish considerations in making their protest; but only that the
subsequent course of events has unhappily brought out the fact that these distasteful persons took a stand for the sounder side of a debatable
question. Except for the continued prevalence of a distempered mentality
that still runs on illusions of persecution, it might reasonably have been
expected that this sort of de facto vindication of the stand taken by these
statutory criminals would be allowed to count in extenuation of their de
jure fault. But the distemper still runs its course. Indeed, it is
doubtless the largest, profoundest, and most enduring effect brought upon the Americans by America's intervention in the great war.

Typically and commonly, dementia praecox is a distemper of adolescence or of early manhood, at least such appears to be the presumption held among psychiatrists. Yet its occurrence is not confined within any assignable age-limits. Typically, if not altogether commonly, it takes the shape of a dementia persecutoria, an illusion of persecution and a derangement of the logical faculty such as to predispose the patient to the belief that he and his folks are victims of plots and systematic atrocities. A fearsome credulity is perhaps the most outstanding symptom, and this credulity may work out in a fear of atrocities to be suffered in the next world or in the present; that is to say a fear of God or of evil men. Prolonged or excessive worry appears to be the most usual predisposing cause. Expert opinions differ as to how far the malady is to be reckoned as a curable disease; the standard treatment being rest, security, and nutrition. The physiological ground of such a failure of mentality appears to be exhaustion and consequent deterioration of nerve-tissue, due to shock or prolonged strain; and recuperation is notoriously slow in the case of nerve-tissue.

No age, sex, or condition is immune, but dementia praecox will affect
adolescents more frequently than mature persons, and men more frequently than women; at least so it is said. Adolescent males are peculiarly subject to this malady, apparently because they are - under modern circumstances - in a peculiar degree exposed to worry, dissipation, and consequent nervous exhaustion. The cares and unfamiliar responsibilitiesof manhood fall upon them at that period, and under modern circumstances these cares and responsibilities are notably exacting, complex, and uncertain. Given a situation of widespread apprehension, uncertainty, and agitation, such as the war-experience brought on the Americans, and the consequent derangement
of mentality should be of a similarly widespread character - such as has come in evidence.
The peculiar liability of adolescent males carries the open suggestion that
a similar degree of liability should also extend to those males of more
advanced years in whom a puerile mentality persists, men in whom a boyish temper continues into later life. These boyish traits may be seen in
admirably systematised fashion in such organisations as the Boy Scouts.
Much the same range of characteristics marks the doings and aspirations,
individual and collective, of high-school boys, undergraduate students, and organisations of the type of the Y.M.C.A. In this connection it would
perhaps be ungraceful to direct attention to the clergy of all
denominations, where self-selection has resulted in a concentration on the lower range of the intellectual spectrum. One is also not unprepared to find a sensible infusion of the same puerile traits among military men. A certain truculent temper is conspicuous among the stigmata. Persons in whom the traits and limitations of the puerile mentality persist in a
particularly notable degree are called "morons," but there are also many
persons who approximate more or less closely to the moronic grade of
mentality without being fully entitled to the technical designation. Such a
degree of arrested spiritual and mental development is, in practical
effect, no bar against entrance into public office. Indeed, a degree of
puerile exuberance coupled with a certain truculent temper and boyish
cunning is likely to command something of popular admiration and affection, which is likely to have a certain selective effect in the democratic choice of officials. Men, and perhaps even more particularly the women, will be sympathetically and affectionately disposed toward the standard vagaries of boyhood, and this sentimental inclination is bound to be reflected in the choice of public officials in any democratic community, where such choice is habitually guided by the play of sentiment. America is the most democratic of all nations; at least so they say. A run of persecutory credulity of the nature of dementia praecox should logically run swiftly and with a wide sweep in the case of such a community endowed with such an official machinery, and its effects should be profound and lasting.


As I tend to think that a large effect has a necessary cause it seems to me, under such a set of circumstances as described by one of America's leading intellectuals, a rare breed according to Mr Hofstadter, that America might experience a mass nervous breakdown under the strict and merciless exigencies of neat anti-ID and diluted versions are beside the point on a science thread as Mr Veblen makes plain. At least it makes a change from reading PFYA leaflets in IMHAHO.
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Fri 19 Oct, 2007 01:37 pm
wandeljw wrote:
Thanks, blatham. Here is some more good information. Senator Vitter has withdrawn the creationism group earmark from the appropriations bill:

Quote:
ACLU Applauds Removal of Unconstitutional "Creation Science" Earmark from Appropriations Bill

The ACLU is relieved that Senator Vitter came to his senses and withdrew this misguided proposal."

I doubt he's come to his senses. More likely he's just realized he can't win.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Fri 19 Oct, 2007 02:07 pm
Neither could the Bythnians under the Roman yoke.

What's new eh?
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blatham
 
  1  
Fri 19 Oct, 2007 03:59 pm
spendi wrote
Quote:
As I tend to think that a large effect has a necessary cause it seems to me, under such a set of circumstances as described by one of America's leading intellectuals, a rare breed according to Mr Hofstadter, that America might experience a mass nervous breakdown under the strict and merciless exigencies of neat anti-ID and diluted versions are beside the point on a science thread as Mr Veblen makes plain. At least it makes a change from reading PFYA leaflets in IMHAHO.


Well, I can certainly understand your respect for Veblen. That's a brilliant bit of observation and thinking. And then there's the quality of the writing. Lovely. Thanks. You are likely aware of Hofstadter's "Paranoid Style of American Politics" here which addresses some of the same phenomena. But these American phenomena precede the first war.

That piece and his book "Anti-Intellectualism..." were published in the early 60's following upon the second war and the political events/trends in the US during the 50s (eg McCarthy). It was a period, again, where 'business' was in ascendency" (replacement of the New Dealers by the Car Dealers, as someone described it at the time). There's no question that we are in such a rightward swing again.

But I'm unsure exactly what you are arguing in the quote above. First, I think it is adventurous at best to assume psychological phenomena applicable at the individual level will be equally applicable at the level of something like a nation. A nation can't have a nervous breakdown just like it can't be said, sensibly, to be happy. I'm sure we can get something from the comparison but I don't think we get much. Certainly no remedies (we can't put a nation on meds or have it do group therapy).

Am I missing something in what you've said above?
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spendius
 
  1  
Fri 19 Oct, 2007 05:22 pm
In view of-

Quote:
And then there's the quality of the writing. Lovely.


you're not missing much. No. You should read him on the economic theory of frocks. He only calls it "women's dress" to be polite.

The guy was completely off his rocker but, boy, can he write. I love it. If I'm feeling a bit down I just read a bit of Veblen on pets or flower arranging or somesuch and it cheers me up no end.

A true genius.

If you like that Bernie you'll like Proust. He's murderous. He leaves no stone unturned.
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spendius
 
  1  
Fri 19 Oct, 2007 06:08 pm
Oh- BTW Bernie- once through is playing at it.
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spendius
 
  1  
Fri 19 Oct, 2007 06:12 pm
Bernie wrote-

Quote:
we can't put a nation on meds or have it do group therapy


What do you think that was when the the young lady popped one out at the Superbowl?

It was only a tit after all.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Fri 19 Oct, 2007 06:13 pm
Good job Dolly Parton hadn't been recruited eh?
0 Replies
 
 

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