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Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

 
 
spendius
 
  1  
Wed 22 Aug, 2007 05:31 pm
c.i. wrote-

Quote:
Gee, spendi, you've been on the hootch again!


There you go c.i.

You prove my point right away.

That statement is pure dogma. It has no relation to reality. I was as sober as a judge when I wrote the post you are referring to. You are comforting yourself by making up bullshit. And that is precisely what you have been accusing the religious folks of doing whilst conveniently forgetting that a human being in your location without Christianity intervening would be dancing around a totem pole and have his pectorals carved up to prove he was a man and having to go and kill a buffalo to get a rare steak with no trimmings and using the bones to make a musical instrument or a digging implement.

Can you not get the remark into Gregorian Chant mode and teach your fellow anti-IDers to intone it? Impart some ironic style to it I mean.
0 Replies
 
akaMechsmith
 
  1  
Wed 22 Aug, 2007 05:56 pm
Good hooch Very Happy

spendius wrote:


When someone actually believes in an assertion, which is a secret impulsion of a spirit or something which animates him somehow and satisfies and comforts him, and which bears no relation to reality, it is a religious sentiment.


Spendi, That is as good a definition of "religious" that I have seen in a long time.

This is the basis of a comment of mine a couple of weeks ago that there is a certain amount of common ground between the " religiously" minded and the "scientifically" minded.

Idea Now my mind is made up, don't confuse me with facts Idea
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spendius
 
  1  
Wed 22 Aug, 2007 06:21 pm
There are "nice" restaurants as well don't forget. THey are places where you chomp your way through the nutrient bed spiritually.
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akaMechsmith
 
  1  
Wed 22 Aug, 2007 07:41 pm
Spendi,

Have you failed to notice that even with Christainity, Judaism, and Islam, (all people of the book) running amok, we mutilate our young, run around totems.(Steeples or minarets) indulge in wholesale slaughter, dispense food and comfort capriciously, maximize sexual acts. Pretty much our societies insure that we act like animals. Our societies evolve with the same constraints upon them.

The result is the same. I misdoubt that athiests could do any worse.


I regard Hitler, Stalin, Kruschev, and Kennedy and Bush as all religious by your definition (which I like).

Idea If you are sober you have nobody else to blame but yourself. :wink:
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Thu 23 Aug, 2007 04:02 am
aka wrote-

Quote:
I misdoubt that athiests could do any worse.


I don't think I've ever said they would.

It would be different that's all and distorted by the process of historic pseudomorphosis.

That is a process whereby an older culture (Christianity) has such a large influence that a new culture (atheism) struggles to express itself as logic says it should. What arises from the new culture is moulded by the old and this produces frustration and even the sort of hate we have witnessed on this thread. The atheist continues to get married for example and enjoy music inspired by Christian thinking. The atheist has to be a particularly obnoxious creature in the eyes of the older culture for a long time in order to express himself freely and without the certainty that he will carry the day. Christianity took hundreds of years to establish itself and even then there were heretical reversions into Paganism and still are.

Stalin attempted to exterminate the kulaks to try to solve the problem quickly but the kulak mentality has returned. He closed the churches but wobbled at demolishing them.

I think that the "animalistic" characteristics you point to correctly are reducing. Rome wasn't built in a day. That was the theme of Mr Bush's speech yesterday. The struggle is not for the faint of heart.

*************

The idea has been floated around that putting Hilary into the White House will give you another 8 years of Bill. Well why not put Laura into the White House and get another 8 years of George.

There's a good chance from what I have seen that putting Hilary in would give you 8 years of Hilary but I feel sure that putting Laura in will definitely give you 8 years of George. The one is a wildly ambitious lawyer type whilst the other is a lovely unassuming schoolmarm/librarian.

I would vote for Laura.
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akaMechsmith
 
  1  
Thu 23 Aug, 2007 03:45 pm
Re Laura, Me too!

Re Spendi- 5:02AM
Yep, it would be different. I suspect with some sort of education now available to and required by the masses that it won't take quite as long nor be quite as bloody as when the various supersticions rule the day.


As the Soviet Union and China are learning today, if the governors want bombs,palaces, and airplanes you must have some sort of class of educated persons to provide them. Educated populaces don't herd nearly as well as sheep.

I am faintly amused that the physics that allows nuclear power plants also has a bit to do with the eternal mysteries of the Universe, and that the studies of economics have quite a bit to do with the Gods that we choose Very Happy
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Thu 23 Aug, 2007 05:10 pm
I have a reputation on this thread of being a nutcase contrarian.

Well- I don't feel contrarian about the last post.

I think I am only a contrarian to blithering idiotic hypocrites who want only to tell everybody what to do and how to think without having made the effort to think through the shite they spout and who scuttle off to the nearest comfort zone (marked EVOLUTION) as soon as somebody pops a paper bag at the other end of the block.

Laura for President.
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Sun 26 Aug, 2007 07:29 pm
TEXAS UPDATE

Quote:
Education board opposes intelligent design in curricula
(By TERRENCE STUTZ, The Dallas Morning News, August 23, 2007)

AUSTIN - Should "intelligent design" - the cousin of creationism - be taught in science classes in Texas alongside evolution?

A solid majority of the State Board of Education, which will rewrite the science curriculum for public schools next year, is against the idea, even though several members say they are creationists and have serious doubts about Charles Darwin's theory that humans evolved from lower life forms.

Interviews with 11 of the 15 members of the board - including seven Republicans and four Democrats - found little support for requiring that intelligent design be taught in biology and other science classes. Only one board member said she was open to the idea of placing the theory into the curriculum standards.

"Creationism and intelligent design don't belong in our science classes," said Board of Education Chairman Don McLeroy, who described himself as a creationist. "Anything taught in science has to have consensus in the science community - and intelligent design does not."

Mr. McLeroy, R-College Station, noted that the current curriculum requires that evolution be taught in high school biology classes, and he has no desire to change that standard.

"When it comes to evolution, I am totally content with the current standard," he said, adding that his dissatisfaction with current biology textbooks is that they don't cover the weaknesses of the theory of evolution.

The theory of intelligent design holds that certain features of the universe and living things are best explained by an unknown "intelligent cause" rather than by undirected processes like natural selection and random mutation - key components of the theory of evolution.

Critics call intelligent design pseudoscience and a smokescreen for inserting creationism - the biblical account of the origin of humans - into science classes. But polls have shown that as many as two-thirds of Texans believe creationism should be taught in public schools along with evolution. Gov. Rick Perry and President Bush have endorsed the idea as well.

And while the board apparently won't take up intelligent design, several members expect a battle over how evolution is treated in science textbooks, although that won't be up for debate until 2011. Mr. McLeroy and others say they'll push for books to include a more thorough examination of weaknesses in the theory of evolution.

For example, they noted, there are large time gaps in fossil records of species that are believed by scientists to be part of the same evolutionary chain.

Mr. McLeroy is part of a bloc of seven socially conservative board members, whose views are generally aligned with key social conservative groups active in campaigns and policy disputes, such as the Eagle Forum. He was one of four members who voted against the current biology texts in 2003 over the evolution issue.

Kathy Miller of the Texas Freedom Network, which advocates strict separation of church and state, said she doubted board members had given up their advocacy of intelligent design.

"Don McLeroy and the other ideologues who now control the state board have said repeatedly in the past that they want public school science classes to teach creationism and other religion-based concepts," Ms. Miller said. "So we have no doubt that they'll find a way to try, either by playing politics with the curriculum standards or censoring new science textbooks later on."

Board Vice Chairman David Bradley, who also voted against the biology books in 2003, acknowledged that he doesn't believe in one of the main tenets of Darwin's theory - that humans evolved from lower life forms.

"If some of my associates want to believe their ancestors were monkeys, that is their right. I believe God is responsible for our creation," said Mr. Bradley, R-Beaumont. "Given that none of today's scientists were around when the first frog crawled out of the pond, there is no one who can say exactly what happened."

But just like the board chairman, Mr. Bradley said he is not interested in changing the current requirement for the teaching of evolution - nor would he support a move to include the theory of intelligent design in science classes.

"There's always room for improvement, but I haven't heard a loud drumbeat for massive change," he added. "I do want to make sure the next group of textbooks includes the strengths and weaknesses of evolution."

Republican Pat Hardy of Weatherford was the only board member interviewed who said she was open to the idea of putting intelligent design into the curriculum. She wants to see strong support from science teachers for doing so, though, she said.

"I am open to having intelligent design in there because there is a large body of evidence unanswered by the theory of evolution. We first need to hear from science educators and experts about whether this should be done," Ms. Hardy said, adding that she does not favor putting any religious teachings into science classes.

Both board members from the Dallas area - Republican Geraldine "Tincy" Miller and Democrat Mavis Knight - want to preserve the current requirement on the teaching of evolution. Neither is interested in giving intelligent design equal billing with evolution.

"There is nothing to stop a teacher from talking about other theories on how the world began, but those should not be the basis for a science class," Ms. Miller said.

Ms. Knight is expecting a push from intelligent design backers to include it in the curriculum next year, but she is firmly against such a move even though many Texans with creationist views may favor it.

"My position is if you're strong in your faith, then even if what is taught in a [science] class is contrary to your religious beliefs, it will not weaken your faith," she said.

Two other GOP board members who are considered social conservatives - Barbara Cargill of The Woodlands and Gail Lowe of Lampasas - also believe the current standards on evolution are in good shape and should not be changed to accommodate intelligent design.

"I don't think the standards need to be changed," said Ms. Cargill, a former high school science teacher. "I would prefer that intelligent design and creationism remain issues for families to discuss rather than having them in the curriculum."

Ms. Cargill, who also believes in the biblical version of creation, said she accepts many concepts of evolutionary theory such as continual changes in species. "Where people differ is on the origin of man," she noted, citing similar concerns with other board members about current biology books and their lack of information about the weaknesses of Darwin's theory.

Ms. Lowe, who called herself a creationist, said the study of evolution is important to the teaching of biology. At the same time, she added, "Kids ought to be able to hold religious beliefs and still study science without any conflict."

Other board members who like the current standards and don't want to require teaching of intelligent design are Republicans Bob Craig of Lubbock and Democrats Rick Agosto of San Antonio, Lawrence Allen of Houston and Mary Helen Berlanga of Corpus Christi.

Four board members - Democrat Rene Nunez of El Paso and Republicans Cynthia Dunbar of Richmond, Terri Leo of Spring and Ken Mercer of San Antonio - did not return phone calls.
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spendius
 
  1  
Mon 27 Aug, 2007 12:08 pm
I think that was 19 people who got their name in the paper if I counted correctly. The editor must be one popular guy.

It was all complete drivel of course as anybody who has read Bertrand Russell's An Outline of Philosophy will confirm.

I'm afraid that the argument in that concerning "Knowledge" is a bit too complex for most readers of this thread, the readers of the Dallas Morning News and, seemingly, those in that area responsible for the education of the youth.

All I can suggest is that anyone interested in these matters reads the book and see for themselves. I don't expect them to take my word for it.

It is a scientific argument though which I assume will put most people off.
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spendius
 
  1  
Mon 27 Aug, 2007 05:31 pm
The arguments of the anti-IDers on this thread, which are there for all to see on the moving finger having writ principle, were all put on the record in the late 18th Century by the Marquis de Sade and are therefore a trifle cliched. They are-

1- A rejection of God because of all the evil and misery He permits in the world.

2-A rejection of The Church whose explanations cannot satisfy their idea of reason which has been derived from a lazy and self flattering education. Majoring in math does sound good I'll admit. Judging from this thread I should think that means that one can work the checkout till in a supermarket satisfactorily most of the time.

3- A rejection of The Church whose representitives so completely belied the principles they professed to observe as if those representitives are not chaps just like themselves.

All over 200 years old and well known to anybody who does any serious work in the Movers and Shakers Department.

Here is a bit of the maestro hisself in the part of Saint-Fond (a fictional character)-

Quote:
The force of the sceptre depends on that of the thurible; these two authorities have the greatest interest in mutual help and it is only by dividing them that the masses will shake off the yoke. Nothing makes people so abject as religious fears; it is right that they should fear eternal punishment if they revolt against their king; that is why the European powers are always on good terms with Rome.


Yeah- right your eminence. Have you tried imagining the masses having shaken off all yokes. An anarchist's dream I should think. 300 million having shaken off all the yokes is a fine prospect indeed. Or is Mass Media the new yoke?

Is not this whole debate about the American schizophrenic attitude to authority. Hating something one needs.

And now you know where separation of Church and State was first mooted as a policy by which the masses would be abled to shake off all the yokes. And they locked the silly sod up sine die.

Here is an example of how silly he was-

Quote:
Religion is dangerous as a basis on which to build morality; for if the falseness of the foundations is recognized the whole edifice will tumble down. Similarly the fact that it may be a consolation to some is not sufficient reason for it. "I cannot see that the desire to appease a few fools," says the Mother superior to Juliette, "is worth the poisoning of millions of honest folk..."


Do you see how this fatuity is posited on there being some "honest folks" never mind there being millions of them. Has anybody on here ever met a member of that class of persons leaving aside assertions to the contrary. It's just base flattery. And just suppose that the "some" and the "few fools" is 90 odd % of the voters.

Imagine the edifice falling down for a moment. Don't dwell upon it. Watch a video.

Our PM often indulges himself with the phrase "hard working people up and down the land" when he wants to make the lazy sods feel good about themselves. I can't see our PM being deluded on a matter such as that. And neither can I imagine de Sade being deluded on the subject of "honest folks". Apart from Joe (I'm not a phoney) Nation I mean.

At least de Sade had, and our PM has, a good excuse for cynicism of this order. What's your excuse wande?
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spendius
 
  1  
Mon 27 Aug, 2007 05:44 pm
In case viewers on this thread are wondering where all the intellectuals have gone they have decamped to another area where they are making sarcastic remarks about Noah's bloody ark and other brilliant insights of a similar nature. The word "evolution" has an effect on them similar to the effect of a rubber hammer tapped gently just below the kneecap by a nurse.
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akaMechsmith
 
  1  
Mon 27 Aug, 2007 06:10 pm
Maybe after a couple hundred years there has been said all that is potentially profitable to say.

Since all appeals to reason fails then societies resort to force, which merely brings a different type of society.

Evolutionists call this "supplanting" Laughing

Happens with bacteria,religions, Gods, societies. No biggie, lessen it's you or me bein supplanted of course :wink: Then it may get a bit personal.
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Vengoropatubus
 
  1  
Wed 29 Aug, 2007 06:52 pm
spendius wrote:
In case viewers on this thread are wondering where all the intellectuals have gone they have decamped to another area where they are making sarcastic remarks about Noah's bloody ark and other brilliant insights of a similar nature. The word "evolution" has an effect on them similar to the effect of a rubber hammer tapped gently just below the kneecap by a nurse.


I think I'm feeling sad that you don't consider me an intellectual.
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Thu 30 Aug, 2007 11:39 am
Quote:
Avoid reprise of bad idea
(The Baton Rouge Advocate, Editorial Opinion, August 25, 2007)

Twenty years ago, the U.S. Supreme Court struck down a Louisiana law mandating equal treatment in school classrooms of evolution and creationism in school classrooms.

If there ever was a law demonstrating the potential of political hacks to pander our state's way onto the front page of national ridicule, it was that statute.

Creationism holds that the Bible's account of creation is truth. The courts held that the equal-treatment law was a way to push religion in public schools.

Those pushing the idea of Bible-based science in public schools have a reprise of creationism called "intelligent design."

Jerry A. Coyne, a University of Chicago professor, defined intelligent design as "a modern form of creationism cleverly constructed to circumvent the many court decisions that have banned, on First Amendment grounds, the teaching of religious views in the science classroom."

While ID advocates have dropped explicit references to God and the Bible in their pitch, they ascribe the complexity of life to the work of an "intelligent designer."

"Besides making the usual shopworn criticism of evolutionary theory, IDers contend that some features of life are too complex to have evolved and so required celestial intervention," Coyne said in The New Republic.

He wrote in the magazine a devastating critique of one of the leading intelligent design texts, "The Edge of Evolution: The Search for the Limits of Darwinism," by Michael J. Behe, a LeHigh University professor.

Coyne's critique takes apart the common misconceptions about evolutionary theory even if praising the engaging prose of the author and the ways that former creationists have given up on key views they used to hold.

Coyne notes that Behe and others in the movement have accepted what once was heretical: That the Earth is much older than the 10,000 or so years as set forth in the Bible, that man shared a common ancestor with chimpanzees and other apes, that most evolution is caused by Darwinian natural selection.

Instead, every small gap in understanding of evolution becomes a huge chasm of doubt for the ID movement to complain about.

"IDers never produce their own scientific explanation of life. They just carp about evolution," Coyne noted. "And as evolutionists explain one thing after another, IDers simply ignore these successes and move on to the ever-dwindling set of unsolved problems in which they continue to see the hand of God."

While its arguments continually evolve, the intelligent-design movement is at its root about an intellectual foothold for religion in science classrooms in public schools.
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spendius
 
  1  
Thu 30 Aug, 2007 01:17 pm
The usual stuff wande from an organ of media pushing for an anti-religious agenda for obvious financial gain.

Nothing but banal assertions based on the assumption that their readers are stupid or tired which is probably a reasonable assumption to make.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Thu 30 Aug, 2007 01:24 pm
spendi, Your last post only confirmed what the writer had to say about IDers, namely:

"IDers never produce their own scientific explanation of life. They just carp about evolution," Coyne noted. "And as evolutionists explain one thing after another, IDers simply ignore these successes and move on to the ever-dwindling set of unsolved problems in which they continue to see the hand of God."
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spendius
 
  1  
Thu 30 Aug, 2007 01:59 pm
c.i.-

How can anybody produce any scientific explanations of life?

It is a complete mystery and will forever be. The very fact that science searches for the answer is proof that the human race has an urge to find one. But it never will.

It is a question of trying to find a story which satisfies people to some extent and which is also conducive to the "progress" of society.

Why does the writer use an emotive word like "carp" to designate an honest probing of the difficulties with evolution theory as an explanation.

He discredits himself by doing that.

Evolutionists may well explain one thing after another but they are all the same. I certainly don't ignore their successes. Who is he talking about?

I know- the ones he wants to talk about. His straw man.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Thu 30 Aug, 2007 04:18 pm
Jerry Coyne has basically summarized our 200+ pages of this thread (minus about 36 pages of spendis tripe). One of his excellent IDeflators was in Brockmans work INTELLIGENT THOUGHT(Vintage Pubs 2006) In this Coyne contributed "Intelligent Design:The Faith that dare Not Speak Its Name". Kinda cool title and quite readable and nigh on impossible to refute since it leans heavily upon the tenets of the scientific method, evidence, falsification, and prediction. All aspects of which ID fails miserably and completely.
So ID is left with nothing but faithful (rather than scientifically convinced0. '
If, as Spendi says, evolution as art, would be work by Gainsborough or Constable, ok, then ID , is work by Kinkade.
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spendius
 
  1  
Thu 30 Aug, 2007 05:00 pm
That's OK by me.

As I walked out into the mystic garden
The wounded flowers hanging on the vine
Passing by yon cool crystal fountain
Something hit me from behind.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Thu 30 Aug, 2007 05:11 pm
embuggered again?
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