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Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

 
 
Wilso
 
  1  
Thu 9 Aug, 2007 03:32 pm
USAFHokie80 wrote:
you're not really one to be commenting on what is and is not drivel. i barely understood half of that last rant. and i assure you, it isn't for lack of trying or education.


Glad I'm not the only one. Like all the theists, he just posts endless reams of worthless drivel that means nothing, and proves less. Yet another LOSER.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Thu 9 Aug, 2007 05:18 pm
USAF wrote-

Quote:
you're not really one to be commenting on what is and is not drivel.


Quote:
A story like this illustrates the difference between scientific endeavor and religious dogma. Science is ready to change with new information; the religious change nothing, except rhetoric


That's drivel USAF my boy. Take my word for it. Absolutely meaningless drivel of the type that would create guffaws in any company with hairs on its balls. Unless, of course, it sprang from a frock container. In which case one might pay close attention and compliment the purity of the intellectual processes involved.

And the reason you can't see it is precisely because of your lack of trying or education. You do demonstrate a want of both which an educated person can only gaze in mystified wonder at assuming you have reached puberty.

We gave up on assertions a long time ago.

I'm the King of Siam. If you don't believe that why should we believe how hard you claim to have worked and how educated you say you are?

The only story I could see was about Mr Leakey's bank balance and that was given scant prominence for obvious reasons.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Thu 9 Aug, 2007 05:52 pm
Quote:
Competitiveness bill signed into law by President
(The Daily News Journal, Aug 9, 2007)

WASHINGTON - President George W. Bush today signed into law Rep. Bart Gordon's legislation to improve math and science education and foster energy research to help secure U.S. competitiveness.

The America COMPETES Act is designed to ensure that U.S. students, teachers, businesses and workers are prepared to continue leading the world in innovation, research and technology.

"This will help us keep American jobs on our shores by making sure we have the most skilled workforce in the world," said Gordon, chairman of the House Committee on Science and Technology.

"Other countries will always have lower wages, so in an effort to remain competitive our workforce must have the technical skills to make it advantageous for companies to keep their businesses here in the U.S. instead of moving overseas. We start by making sure our children are receiving the best math and science preparation in grades K-12."

Gordon's bill is based on recommendations from the National Academies' 2005 report, "Rising Above the Gathering Storm." The report was produced at the request of a bipartisan group of lawmakers, including Gordon and Sen. Lamar Alexander.

"This is the prime model of bipartisan cooperation on a massively important issue to every citizen of our country," added Sen. Alexander. "The America COMPETES Act is a direct response to the challenge our country faces in keeping our brainpower advantage so our good jobs don't go overseas to places like India and China. The President, the Senate Republican and Democratic Leadership, and Tennessee Congressmen Bart Gordon and Zach Wamp have played critical roles in bringing this legislation to the final step."

The "Gathering Storm" report concluded the United States could stand to lose its competitive edge without immediate action.

Specifically, the report found that in 1999, 68 percent of U.S. 8th grade students received math instruction from a teacher who lacked a degree or certification in the field. In 2000, 93 percent of students in grades 5-9 received physical science instruction from teachers without a certification in the subject matter.

"Many of our teachers are put in a difficult position of filling a school's need for a teacher in a particular subject area, but they may not have extensive knowledge of the content," said Gordon. "Our efforts today will help them gain the content knowledge and skills they need to teach our students."

The bill will help to prepare thousands of new teachers by offering scholarships to students who major in math, science or engineering and commit to become teachers upon graduation. The bill will also provide current teachers with content and teaching skills through summer training institutes.

The bill also takes steps to help reducing the nation's dependence on foreign sources of energy by establishing an Advanced Research Projects Agency at the Department of Energy to focus on high-risk, high-reward energy research to produce new energy technologies.

Gordon's legislation is supported by a wide variety of groups, including the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, the National Association of Manufacturers, the Business Roundtable and the National Education Association.

"This is an example of how the process should work," said Gordon. "A bipartisan, bicameral group of lawmakers requested the report from the National Academies, and we have acted on those recommendations to produce good legislation. I am proud that today the President has also shown his support by signing this bill. It's the right thing to do for our future and especially, our children's future."
0 Replies
 
USAFHokie80
 
  1  
Thu 9 Aug, 2007 09:55 pm
spendius wrote:
USAF wrote-

Quote:
you're not really one to be commenting on what is and is not drivel.


Quote:
A story like this illustrates the difference between scientific endeavor and religious dogma. Science is ready to change with new information; the religious change nothing, except rhetoric


That's drivel USAF my boy. Take my word for it. Absolutely meaningless drivel of the type that would create guffaws in any company with hairs on its balls. Unless, of course, it sprang from a frock container. In which case one might pay close attention and compliment the purity of the intellectual processes involved.

And the reason you can't see it is precisely because of your lack of trying or education. You do demonstrate a want of both which an educated person can only gaze in mystified wonder at assuming you have reached puberty.

We gave up on assertions a long time ago.

I'm the King of Siam. If you don't believe that why should we believe how hard you claim to have worked and how educated you say you are?

The only story I could see was about Mr Leakey's bank balance and that was given scant prominence for obvious reasons.


i'm not even sure why you bother talking. if you're not going to make any sense, or at least be on topic, just save it.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Fri 10 Aug, 2007 03:17 am
USAF-

Assertions and now giving out orders. Are you a General or something?

You're a newbie on this thread. And you haven't said anything of interest yet.

I was responding to Ed's post. You butted in. I responded to you as I'm a polite bloke and don't ignore people. I can't see what you're whinging about. You made three assertions in two and a bit lines in your previous post none of which had any meaning to any viewer.

Why don't you get up to speed?

What's your position on religion in the US?
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Fri 10 Aug, 2007 03:45 am
wande-

The COMPETES act stuff is a bit woffly. It sounds fine but that sort of thing takes years to have an effect.

It's been tried here many times. The real problem is teachers wages and the wages that students can see are paid to bright graduates in easier subjects than maths and physics.

Unless you pay teachers who get qualified in those difficult subjects a better wage than those who take on easier ones it will all be a waste of time. And provide them with reasonable working conditions and status in the community. That's the way of the world.

According to Hofstadter America has always undervalued its teachers and has a tradition of denigrating them.

It is the sheer numbers that are needed that is the problem coupled with the fact that the population has only a small number of people capable of mastering maths and physics and those can get better money in other jobs.

No words can cover that up.

But watching the shuttle take off the other day it struck me that you're not doing so bad. Both the subjects under discussion really do require the student to take an interest in them independently of the school.

As you might imagine I think the report covers what are essentially photo opportunities.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Fri 10 Aug, 2007 04:38 am
Quote:
A previous Department of Education was created in 1867 but soon was demoted to an Office in 1868. Its creation a century later in 1979 was controversial and opposed by many in the Republican Party, who saw the department as an unconstitutional, unnecessary federal bureaucratic intrusion into local affairs.

Unlike the systems of most other countries, education in the United States is highly decentralized, and the federal government and Department of Education are not heavily involved in determining curricula or educational standards (with the large exception of the No Child Left Behind Act). This has been left to state and local school districts. The quality of educational institutions and their degrees is maintained through an informal private process known as accreditation, over which the Department of Education has no direct public jurisdictional control.


wande- doesn't that suggest that federal initiatives don't carry much weight?
0 Replies
 
USAFHokie80
 
  1  
Fri 10 Aug, 2007 06:26 am
actually I'm not a newbie. i've made several posts but not in a while. this thread got so far off track that i stopped responding.
0 Replies
 
Joe Nation
 
  1  
Fri 10 Aug, 2007 08:03 am
Not that Spendius would notice in the snowfall of his postings.

Joe(everything is such blur)Nation
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Fri 10 Aug, 2007 09:04 am
Joe( I can post empty plastic bags) Nation wrote-

Quote:
Not that Spendius would notice in the snowfall of his postings.


Why would I notice? They weren't responses anyway. If anything is off topic it is the recent posts of USAF, Wilso and your goodself.

For example-

Quote:
i barely understood half of that last rant


Probably after a once through speed read with the hackles up. What can I do about that? I don't write for that sort of reader. He could have responded to the half he barely understood.

I think you'll find that if you pay close attention I did offer something worth responding to.

All I ever get are stupid assertions and insults.

I expect some educated response. Not bluster. I can't understand what some of you guys come on this thread for. You sound like whoopee cushions most of the time.

If federal expenditure on education is only 11% of the total what was wande's last post all about bearing in mind you have a republican president and-

Quote:
A previous Department of Education was created in 1867 but soon was demoted to an Office in 1868. Its creation a century later in 1979 was controversial and opposed by many in the Republican Party, who saw the department as an unconstitutional, unnecessary federal bureaucratic intrusion into local affairs.


"Unnecessary" is not my word.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Fri 10 Aug, 2007 11:29 am
Quote:
Orbiting the classroom
(Lynn Vincent, World Magazine, August 2007)

On an autumn night at Legion Field in Birmingham, Ala., the Woodlawn High School Colonels slugged it out on the gridiron. Sophomore Barry Walker sat in the student section, cheering under a starry sky?-until a student sitting near him pointed up.

"There's Sputnik," the other kid said, indicating what looked like an especially bright star.

Across the stands, like leaves angling toward light, face after face turned skyward. Even some of the football players on the sidelines looked up to witness a technological marvel: the first successful guided orbit of Earth by a man-made object.

Then someone else sitting near Walker said quietly, "They're spying on us from up there."

On the night of Oct. 4, 1957, the arc of the satellite Sputnik across U.S. skies "sent a shiver through the nation," said Walker, now a science teacher at Briarwood Christian School in Birmingham. Overnight, citizens from the schoolhouse to the White House understood that America was losing the science and technology race to its arch enemy, the Soviet Union.

"Newspapers, television, and radio were full of the crisis," said James Rutherford, former director of Project 2061, the American Association for the Advancement of Science's program for reforming science education. When Sputnik launched, he was teaching high-school science in California.

"Here we were, supposedly the world's greatest superpower, and we literally couldn't get our own space program off the ground. Now we could see Sputnik in the sky and hear it beeping on the radio. We could even hear the barking of the dog, Laika, that was onboard. It was embarrassing," he said.

Galvanized by the prospect of Soviet technological dominance, Congress within months of Sputnik passed a flurry of legislation. Lawmakers boosted funding for the National Science Foundation, created the National Aeronautics and Space Administration, and offered federal incentives for private and university research. Also, they poured millions into science and math education. Now, 50 years later, were the education reform efforts good ones, and are they still making a difference?

Rutherford says yes?-and no.

"The post-Sputnik concerns were curricular, focusing on what was being taught and how, rather than who was being taught," he said. The reform supernova that burst suddenly over educators forced them to grapple immediately with simmering pedagogical questions: Should education be "progressive" and "child-centered," or basic and discipline-centered? Who should decide what students are supposed to learn?-community folks such as teachers and parents, or "experts" such as scientists and university scholars?

Since Sputnik demanded advances in science and such advances demanded scientists, the answer became experts. That launched unprecedented federal involvement in local schools, which was good before it was bad: Many of the quality-of-life comforts and technology innovations Americans enjoy today are rooted in the post-Sputnik push in science and engineering education.

But over the long haul, the resulting top-down educational structure led to low quality?-and increasingly politicized schooling?-at a very high price.
"For a while after Sputnik, the emphasis was on beefing up science opportunities and training for the academically gifted," said preeminent biologist Paul R. Gross. Then came Lyndon Johnson's Great Society initiative, the educational fallout from the civil-rights upheavals, and the steady leftward drift of academic intellectuals. Gross said: "That forced educational reform away from investment in achievement by the brightest and toward bringing about equality of educational outcomes across the socio-economic partitions." Up rose an army of "-isms"?-environmentalism, feminism, multiculturalism, and in Gross' view, creationism?-to muddy the waters of educational inquiry.

Among the most far-reaching laws Congress passed in the immediate wake of Sputnik was the National Defense Education Act, aimed at stimulating advancement in science, math, and foreign-language education.

Sputnik turned the National Science Foundation (NSF) into a major shaper of the nation's public-school science curriculum, triggering "dozens" of so-called curriculum projects, Rutherford said, all largely funded by NSF.
On the downside, he added, textbooks ballooned into huge survey-style tomes that skimmed the surface of hundreds of scientific concepts, rather than educating students thoroughly in a necessary few.

The fresh curricula began moving science education away from dry recitations of fact to the more hands-on approach that is still prevalent today. Shirley Malcom remembers the transformation. In 1957, she was a fifth-grader attending Lewis Elementary School, an all-black school in Birmingham. Science subjects were scarce, she said, and mainly involved rote memorization of natural history facts?-nothing intriguing enough to turn the head of a curious 11-year-old in the direction of science.

"But Sputnik focused so much attention on what science really was, that it involved so much more beyond this collection of facts," said Malcom, now director of education and human resources at the American Association for the Advancement of Science, the world's largest general scientific society.

That Sputnik got Malcom's attention in the completely segregated city of Birmingham, then ground-zero in the brewing struggle for black civil rights, underscores the satellite's impact, she said: "For it to penetrate through all the other noise that was going on in our lives, you can imagine how strong the message had to be."

In the area of biology, Sputnik's influence was dramatic, uprooting science education from a vaguely biblical worldview that accounted for the presence of God and planting it in the parched soil of materialism. For a quarter-century after the 1925 Scopes "Monkey" trial, publishers of high-school science textbooks avoided offending conservative Christians by mainly avoiding the topic of evolution.

But just after Sputnik, a group of NSF-backed biologists established the Biological Sciences Curriculum Study, according to The Creationists, a book by Ronald Numbers. Spurred by complaints from leading biologists that "one hundred years without Darwinism is enough," BSCS set about creating "state-of-the-art" biology texts, which it introduced in American high schools in 1963.

"Before long, nearly half of the high schools in America were using these books or other curriculum materials developed by the BSCS," Numbers wrote.

Rutherford considers it a failure of post-Sputnik reform efforts that the new science did not eradicate Americans' doubts about evolution. "With public approval . . . school boards press for the inclusion of non-scientific notions?-'creationism' and 'intelligent design'?-in biology courses, and require students to be informed that biological evolution is 'only a theory,'" he wrote in a 2005 paper on science-education reform. "Fifty years of teaching biology, and that's the best we could do?"

In the program he now heads at Birmingham's Briarwood Christian School (BCS), Barry Walker is incorporating the best of Sputnik's legacy while rejecting its dross. For two years, he has nurtured a math and science initiative that incorporates "modeling," a teaching method in which students develop conceptual models that explore scientific truths, then apply those models to new problems.

Example: A student ties an object to a string and swings it around his head. When he lets it go, in which direction will the object travel and why?
"In the traditional model, a teacher does a demonstration and gives the kids some notes and maybe some problems to work," Walker said. "Then the kids do a lab, mostly a fill-in-the-blank kind of thing. Then they take a test and move on to the next unit."

In the BCS initiative, which Walker developed in cooperation with Arizona State University, the kids swing the string first. Then through observation, data-collection, and Socratic questioning, they discover the way God's world really works. BCS's approach cuts against the post-Sputnik "survey" mentality. Walker said he's pleased to be part of a Christian school that is leading the way.

Such innovation comes at a time when educators and industry leaders are pining for a new "Sputnik moment." Analysts like to suggest that the emergence of China as a global technological player may be it.

Rutherford disagrees. "President Kennedy asked what it would take to win the technology battle against the Soviets," he said. "The winner, it was said, would be the nation that got to the moon first. Sure enough, we won. Game over. We bet our science education on a crisis and the crisis went away." What is needed now, Rutherford said, is sustained educational reform that builds on past efforts, instead of crisis-spurred reform by fits and starts.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Fri 10 Aug, 2007 01:02 pm
All abstract posturing wande.

I'll repeat-

Quote:
According to Hofstadter America has always undervalued its teachers and has a tradition of denigrating them.

It is the sheer numbers that are needed that is the problem coupled with the fact that the population has only a small number of people capable of mastering maths and physics and those can get better money in other jobs.

No words can cover that up.


Not a problem anybody wants to address by the look of things. All we get are high sounding platitudes. Nobody want to go to the voters asking them to accept the discipline required.

All we get is-


Quote:
Rutherford says yes?-and no.


Thank you sir. Very good. That's just what we need. More snow.

Darwinisn isn't science. That's a myth. A convenient one I know because it allows people who can understand evolution theory to think they are in the same ball game as mathematicians and physicists and they are not.

Any fool can understand evolution theory.

Writing about Schopenhauer's Zur Metaphysik der Geschlechtsliebe Spengler wrote-

Quote:
The clarity of which he was so proud threatened at every moment to reveal itself as triviality. While retaining enough of formula to produce an atmosphere of profundity and exclusiveness.


We've seen plenty of that on here.

Spengler goes on-

Quote:
His system is anticipated Darwinism


And further-

Quote:
It is the view that Darwin (via Malthus) brought to bear with irresistable sucess in the field of zoology. The economic origin of Darwinism is shown by the fact that the system deduced from the similarities between men and the higher animals ceases to fit even at the level of the plant-world and becomes positively absurd as soon as it is seriously attempted to apply it with its will-tendency (natural selection, mimicry) to primitive organic forms. Proof, to the Darwinian, means the ordering and pictorial presentation of a selection of facts so that they confirm to his historico-dynamic basic feeling of "Evolution". Darwinism---that is to say, that totality of very varied and discrepant ideas, in which the common factor is merely the application of the causality factor to living things, which therefore is a method and not a result---was known in all details to the 18th Century. Rousseau was championing the ape-man theory as early as 1754. What Darwin originated is only the "Manchester School" system and it is this latent political element in it that accounts for its popularity.


It is a theory that can be understood with ease by intellectual mediocrities who play up the formuli (big words etc) for obvious reasons. Modern force dynamics and analysis powered by the will to infinity of Christian
science have nothing to do with evolution theory.

One can see the latter at work in the stock markets and the fashion industry.

In my view evolutionists posturing as scientists and getting everybody's back up are a bigger threat to scientific progress than religious believers.

It's a form of special pleading. A praising of the self.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Fri 10 Aug, 2007 01:13 pm
spendi: In my view evolutionists posturing as scientists and getting everybody's back up are a bigger threat to scientific progress than religious believers.


Evolutionists do not "posture" as scientists. Anybody can study evolution, and report their findings. It either holds up to scrutiny or it doesn't. That's what science does; test the validity of any findings claimed to be proof of evolution. Many evolutionary theories are supported by more than one "science."
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Fri 10 Aug, 2007 01:42 pm
Well "evolution" isn't science as I had Spengler explain a little. And I have seen Darwinians claiming to be scientists and that's what I meant by posturing.

By your definition I think everybody might claim to be a scientist. It's like having to define "art" in such a way that everybody can't claim to be artists just because they have been in an arts and craft shop as many do.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Fri 10 Aug, 2007 01:52 pm
c.i.

Do you understand the import of the word "economic" in the second line of the Spengler quote I took the trouble to type out for our viewers? Or did it pass you by unnoticed?
0 Replies
 
USAFHokie80
 
  1  
Fri 10 Aug, 2007 02:00 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
spendi: In my view evolutionists posturing as scientists and getting everybody's back up are a bigger threat to scientific progress than religious believers.


Evolutionists do not "posture" as scientists. Anybody can study evolution, and report their findings. It either holds up to scrutiny or it doesn't. That's what science does; test the validity of any findings claimed to be proof of evolution. Many evolutionary theories are supported by more than one "science."


Evolution is a scientific endeavor in that we (not you) continually seek out the answers to thing we don't know. We KNOW the theory isn't complete and there are parts missing. We are looking for them. We are coming up with ideas and testing them. That's what science does. Religion, on the other hand, says "I don't know - God did it." and that's the end of it.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Fri 10 Aug, 2007 02:16 pm
Art and science has different basis for existence, although some art work might be considered "scientifically based" and scientific findings may be considered "works of art."
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Fri 10 Aug, 2007 02:30 pm
Not at all. Religion has to be formulated. The fact of all the different religions is satisfactory evidence of that. And it develops in certain ways.
It is still developing. Intelligent design ideas are a new twist. The idea that it is "fundamentalism by the back door" is just a complacency and it will be misused by some people.

The ideas in the Sermon on the Mount were new. Too new. And they are nowhere near adopted yet. Because human nature is very slow to change religions are slow to change wheras science can get novel ideas which provide a sort on instant buzz. One might be famous overnight.

The glaring fact is that our religion seems to be selecting in.

One might easily say, and it has been said, that Theology is the over-arching science. A seething mass of us lot is a different kettle of fish to some fossils purporting to show a fin turned into a wing. A whole other level. And the proof is to be seen by looking out of your lounge window on what was prarie or savannah or forest in what is recognised to be hardly a blink of the eye in evolutionary terms.

We take some managing like any quasi-respectable cage full of monkeys.
Anybody can manage some fossils. Very few, and it might be less than ten, can manage theoretical physics at the level that has been reached. Theologians are at least as good as that. And because theologians deal with human organisation rather than mute matter they might be said to be superior. And they have forces to deal with which don't sit still.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Fri 10 Aug, 2007 02:41 pm
"Over-arching science" of poofism. It doesn't have any foundation except its ability to take over "intelligent" minds by sacrificing common sense and logic. Poofism will never provide the necessary evidence that any claims made are credible but that they are 100 percent imaginary.

If people wish to live their lives believing there is life after death, or that one can be "saved" from eternal damnation, that's their life to waste.

This life we have is all there is.
0 Replies
 
Joe Nation
 
  1  
Fri 10 Aug, 2007 02:53 pm
CI: word.

==
Meanwhile poor Spendius would have us believe in bizzarroworld where religion is science and science, well, it's so complicated, don't worry your little heads about it. Just know that Evolution isn't Science anymore than Chemistry or Biology or Physics are. So there, he says.

And here's a from a guy who doesn't understand Darwin, and is desperate for Darwin to be wrong, mis-explaining Darwin's theory.

Oh, and the ideas in the Sermon of the Mount were new, and just as unused as they were then.

Joe(You have to hand it to him, every sentence is a nugget.)Nation
0 Replies
 
 

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