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Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

 
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Tue 3 Apr, 2007 03:42 pm
Spendius writes
Quote:
When will I ever learn? Never question the actions of a Lady.


I blush in the face of such wisdom.

(And do not fear offending me. One must be able to understand what you are saying in order to be offended. Smile)
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Tue 3 Apr, 2007 03:44 pm
Chumly wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
So if I or my granddaughter explore possibilities when there are no absolutes available, we are possessed of an empty mind incapable of critical thought? That's rather amazing actually. Perhaps you would care to define the gospel according to Chumly by which 'open minds' must think.
You unsurprisingly demonstrate your ignorance between the possible and the plausible.


So enlighten me oh paragon of critical and analytical thinking. You can start by answering my questions.

And then we will decide which of us has the more possible and/or plausible argument.
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Chumly
 
  1  
Tue 3 Apr, 2007 03:56 pm
To honor your logical fallacy riddled presuming drivel with the definition of "questions" does the legitimate word a great diservice.


Show me your numerous examples of "analytical, comprehensive, and critical thinking" from your recent posts on this thread and how they meet "analytical, comprehensive, and critical thinking".
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Tue 3 Apr, 2007 04:06 pm
Asked and answered Sir Chumly.

Shorts in a wad a bit today are they?
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farmerman
 
  1  
Tue 3 Apr, 2007 04:11 pm
Foxy
Quote:
I also don't care whether humans descended from apes but I can accept a possibility that each evolved as its own species and not one from the other.

This is the point you chose to overlook FM and thus, you pretty much made a red herring of your whole argument.
. No I didnt overlook it, but what the hell, what your granddaughter asked was(if ashe thought of it herself) a really good understanding of what evolution teaches us all along.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Tue 3 Apr, 2007 04:19 pm
I think foxfyre, what you originally tried to pose as a question by your granddaughter, and the way it was interpreted by many of us leaves me with no choice than to agree with rosborne. If that was the point you were making (That your granddaughter is an intelligent girl--Id agree) However, because she asked a question that began with an "IF", followed by an incorrect premise, Id have to blame her teachers for missing the mark.

The fact that she discerned an illogical statement, the fallacy of which is
borne out by genetics and the fossil record, merely indicates that evolution isnt high on the list of subjects to be taught correctly at her school.

This entire thread is starting to sound like "Who's on First?"
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Tue 3 Apr, 2007 04:26 pm
farmerman wrote:
I think foxfyre, what you originally tried to pose as a question by your granddaughter, and the way it was interpreted by many of us leaves me with no choice than to agree with rosborne. If that was the point you were making (That your granddaughter is an intelligent girl--Id agree) However, because she asked a question that began with an "IF", followed by an incorrect premise, Id have to blame her teachers for missing the mark.

The fact that she discerned an illogical statement, the fallacy of which is
borne out by genetics and the fossil record, merely indicates that evolution isnt high on the list of subjects to be taught correctly at her school.

This entire thread is starting to sound like "Who's on First?"


LOL, agreed on your last point.

The question was posed as a rhetorical question which, as I subsequently explained, was within the whole context of the argument presented by some that humankind descended from apes. She was offering a different way of looking at that by including an alternate theory. I thought that was pretty good for a kid.

I didn't expect to spend the rest of the day defending MY view of evolution and what descended from what or who is on first. Smile

It is no secret, however, that my personal opinion is that there is no conflict between the Theory of Evolution and Intelligent Design and, while I do not think it appropriate for I.D. to be taught in Science class, I have no problem with a science teacher acknowledging that as one of many theories of the origins of the universe.
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Chumly
 
  1  
Tue 3 Apr, 2007 04:28 pm
foxfyre,
You have often demonstrated the opposite of "analytical, comprehensive, and critical thinking" in your recent posts on this thread:
Foxfyre wrote:
Really? When you teach do you not teach analytical, comprehensive, and critical thinking?
Why do you presuppose that simply because someone teaches that they would use "analytical, comprehensive, and critical thinking" or for that matter have the ability to?
Foxfyre wrote:
What manner of teacher does not?
Any manner of teacher that does not teach analytical, comprehensive, and critical thinking. Why you do presuppose that it would be otherwise?
Foxfyre wrote:
What rationale could one offer for not doing so?
Why do you presuppose there would be a rationale?
Foxfyre wrote:
What criteria is incorporated in critical thinking do you think?
The criteria by which a self-professed teacher of "analytical, comprehensive, and critical thinking" such as yourself would show that believing in an anthropomorphic providential god is congruent to "analytical, comprehensive, and critical thinking".
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farmerman
 
  1  
Tue 3 Apr, 2007 04:35 pm
foxy
Quote:
It is no secret, however, that my personal opinion is that there is no conflict between the Theory of Evolution and Intelligent Design and, while I do not think it appropriate for I.D. to be taught in Science class, I have no problem with a science teacher acknowledging that as one of many theories of the origins of the universe.


Im aware, youve been consistent throughout. We agree to disagree . I dont get all torqued off about who believes what anymore. I think the advent of an ID worldview in Science class is no longer a threat., consequently I think that many of us are here just for the fun of it.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Tue 3 Apr, 2007 04:48 pm
farmerman wrote:
foxy
Quote:
It is no secret, however, that my personal opinion is that there is no conflict between the Theory of Evolution and Intelligent Design and, while I do not think it appropriate for I.D. to be taught in Science class, I have no problem with a science teacher acknowledging that as one of many theories of the origins of the universe.


Im aware, youve been consistent throughout. We agree to disagree . I dont get all torqued off about who believes what anymore. I think the advent of an ID worldview in Science class is no longer a threat., consequently I think that many of us are here just for the fun of it.


God, I hope so. I would hate to think any of us are taking something unprovable one way or the other all that seriously. Still a bit of civility, good natured joshing, and jocularity is pleasant among the unnecessary sniping, vitriole (sp?) and enmity that sometimes surfaces.
_________________
--Foxfyre

I shall be telling this with a sigh
Somewhere ages and ages hence:
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I?-
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.
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spendius
 
  1  
Tue 3 Apr, 2007 05:16 pm
fm wrote-

Quote:
I think that many of us are here just for the fun of it.


That's true. That's exactly why I'm here. It's a long story and I won't bore you with it but if there was any better fun going anywhere else I would dump you lot faster than Einstein brushed the hot cigar ash off his bare chest when he was thinking about relativity on a hot day in a deck chair before the pubs opened.

I hope nobody thinks I know anything about the Godhead/s.
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spendius
 
  1  
Tue 3 Apr, 2007 05:24 pm
Chum has been quoting Foxy a lot hereabouts.

I'm wondering why he carefully avoiding this one-

Quote:
Shorts in a wad a bit today are they?
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Chumly
 
  1  
Tue 3 Apr, 2007 06:26 pm
The better part of wisdom is the part unsaid Cool
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farmerman
 
  1  
Tue 3 Apr, 2007 07:15 pm
foxy
Quote:
I would hate to think any of us are taking something unprovable one way or the other all that seriously
. I didnt say that. Science is much closer to having all the evidence it needs to make a case,ID/Creationism merely has "faith".
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Chumly
 
  1  
Tue 3 Apr, 2007 07:49 pm
I question whether ID/Creationism if taken in its entirety has faith (at least of uniformity), given there is no accord among even the presumably faithful, on what precisely ID/Creationism is purported to be.

ID/Creationism cannot even define its terms. Having faith does not mean giving up rationality.
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Tue 3 Apr, 2007 07:50 pm
For Foxfyre, a summary of evolutionary theory and types of supporting evidence:

Quote:
The gist of the concept is that small, random, heritable differences among individuals result in survival and reproduction?-success for some, death without offspring for others?-and that this natural culling leads to significant changes in shape, size, strength, armament, color, biochemistry, and behavior among the descendants. Excess population growth drives the competitive struggle. Because less successful competitors produce fewer surviving offspring, the useless or negative variations tend to disappear, whereas the useful variations tend to be perpetuated and gradually magnified throughout a population.

So much for one part of the evolutionary process, known as anagenesis, during which a single species is transformed. But there's also a second part, known as speciation. Genetic changes sometimes accumulate within an isolated segment of a species, but not throughout the whole, as that isolated population adapts to its local conditions. Gradually it goes its own way, seizing a new ecological niche. At a certain point it becomes irreversibly distinct?-that is, so different that its members can't interbreed with the rest. Two species now exist where formerly there was one. Darwin called that splitting-and-specializing phenomenon the "principle of divergence." It was an important part of his theory, explaining the overall diversity of life as well as the adaptation of individual species.

The evidence, as he presented it, mostly fell within four categories: biogeography, paleontology, embryology, and morphology. Biogeography is the study of the geographical distribution of living creatures?-that is, which species inhabit which parts of the planet and why. Paleontology investigates extinct life-forms, as revealed in the fossil record. Embryology examines the revealing stages of development (echoing earlier stages of evolutionary history) that embryos pass through before birth or hatching; at a stretch, embryology also concerns the immature forms of animals that metamorphose, such as the larvae of insects. Morphology is the science of anatomical shape and design. Darwin devoted sizable sections of The Origin of Species to these categories.

Biogeography, for instance, offered a great pageant of peculiar facts and patterns. Anyone who considers the biogeographical data, Darwin wrote, must be struck by the mysterious clustering pattern among what he called "closely allied" species?-that is, similar creatures sharing roughly the same body plan. Such closely allied species tend to be found on the same continent (several species of zebras in Africa) or within the same group of oceanic islands (dozens of species of honeycreepers in Hawaii, 13 species of Galápagos finch), despite their species-by-species preferences for different habitats, food sources, or conditions of climate. Adjacent areas of South America, Darwin noted, are occupied by two similar species of large, flightless birds (the rheas, Rhea americana and Pterocnemia pennata), not by ostriches as in Africa or emus as in Australia. South America also has agoutis and viscachas (small rodents) in terrestrial habitats, plus coypus and capybaras in the wetlands, not?-as Darwin wrote?-hares and rabbits in terrestrial habitats or beavers and muskrats in the wetlands. During his own youthful visit to the Galápagos, aboard the survey ship Beagle, Darwin himself had discovered three very similar forms of mockingbird, each on a different island.

Why should "closely allied" species inhabit neighboring patches of habitat? And why should similar habitat on different continents be occupied by species that aren't so closely allied? "We see in these facts some deep organic bond, prevailing throughout space and time," Darwin wrote. "This bond, on my theory, is simply inheritance." Similar species occur nearby in space because they have descended from common ancestors.

Paleontology reveals a similar clustering pattern in the dimension of time. The vertical column of geologic strata, laid down by sedimentary processes over the eons, lightly peppered with fossils, represents a tangible record showing which species lived when. Less ancient layers of rock lie atop more ancient ones (except where geologic forces have tipped or shuffled them), and likewise with the animal and plant fossils that the strata contain. What Darwin noticed about this record is that closely allied species tend to be found adjacent to one another in successive strata. One species endures for millions of years and then makes its last appearance in, say, the middle Eocene epoch; just above, a similar but not identical species replaces it. In North America, for example, a vaguely horselike creature known as Hyracotherium was succeeded by Orohippus, then Epihippus, then Mesohippus, which in turn were succeeded by a variety of horsey American critters. Some of them even galloped across the Bering land bridge into Asia, then onward to Europe and Africa. By five million years ago they had nearly all disappeared, leaving behind Dinohippus, which was succeeded by Equus, the modern genus of horse. Not all these fossil links had been unearthed in Darwin's day, but he captured the essence of the matter anyway. Again, were such sequences just coincidental? No, Darwin argued. Closely allied species succeed one another in time, as well as living nearby in space, because they're related through evolutionary descent.

Embryology too involved patterns that couldn't be explained by coincidence. Why does the embryo of a mammal pass through stages resembling stages of the embryo of a reptile? Why is one of the larval forms of a barnacle, before metamorphosis, so similar to the larval form of a shrimp? Why do the larvae of moths, flies, and beetles resemble one another more than any of them resemble their respective adults? Because, Darwin wrote, "the embryo is the animal in its less modified state" and that state "reveals the structure of its progenitor."

Morphology, his fourth category of evidence, was the "very soul" of natural history, according to Darwin. Even today it's on display in the layout and organization of any zoo. Here are the monkeys, there are the big cats, and in that building are the alligators and crocodiles. Birds in the aviary, fish in the aquarium. Living creatures can be easily sorted into a hierarchy of categories?-not just species but genera, families, orders, whole kingdoms?-based on which anatomical characters they share and which they don't.

All vertebrate animals have backbones. Among vertebrates, birds have feathers, whereas reptiles have scales. Mammals have fur and mammary glands, not feathers or scales. Among mammals, some have pouches in which they nurse their tiny young. Among these species, the marsupials, some have huge rear legs and strong tails by which they go hopping across miles of arid outback; we call them kangaroos. Bring in modern microscopic and molecular evidence, and you can trace the similarities still further back. All plants and fungi, as well as animals, have nuclei within their cells. All living organisms contain DNA and RNA (except some viruses with RNA only), two related forms of information-coding molecules.

Such a pattern of tiered resemblances?-groups of similar species nested within broader groupings, and all descending from a single source?-isn't naturally present among other collections of items. You won't find anything equivalent if you try to categorize rocks, or musical instruments, or jewelry. Why not? Because rock types and styles of jewelry don't reflect unbroken descent from common ancestors. Biological diversity does. The number of shared characteristics between any one species and another indicates how recently those two species have diverged from a shared lineage.


Source: David Quammen, National Geographic Magazine
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farmerman
 
  1  
Tue 3 Apr, 2007 07:53 pm
And there are degrees of ID, those that include evolution within "specified complexity dogma" (the Dembski apostles) and those that wont hear of it (the Phil Johnson crowd)

Youre right. The ID/Creationist crowd has got itself all schismed up that I dont think they could hold a decent convention in a single movie theater.
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Chumly
 
  1  
Tue 3 Apr, 2007 07:55 pm
wandeljw,

Given that Foxfyre could just as easily Google any number of definitions herself, I might ask if you expect a change in her views and/of if you feel the posting would have an effect? Not that I mind a good read and we are all free to post as we see fit.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Tue 3 Apr, 2007 09:04 pm
You guys are missing the point here. I have been 100% consistent that I have NO PROBLEM whatsoever with the Theory of Evolution or the scientific evidence supporting it. I studied it in highschool and college and I made A's in biology. And I wasn't faking my answers just to please a teacher or professor. I am not arguing against evolution in any way whatsoever and encourage all to understand as much of it as they have interest.

What I am saying that you guys won't acknowledge is that evolution itself may be a process of I.D. And the evidence for that exists in observation of the perfection and efficiency in the way that things have evolved as well as the gaps in knowledge, the inconsistency at times, and the unexplainable. Couple that with one's personal experience of God and for that person, it becomes something more than a matter of faith.

Thinking people know God didn't creat the heavens and Earth in six 24-hour days as we know them. In fact there weren't even days yet on the first day. But religionists can accept the symbolism and metaphor to be eons of time by which it has all come about--a very long miracle of Creation that is likely still ongoing. And Evolution is just one of the processes in all that.

There does not need to be any conflict at all between Creationism and science.
_________________
--Foxfyre

I shall be telling this with a sigh
Somewhere ages and ages hence:
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I?-
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Tue 3 Apr, 2007 10:28 pm
Foxfyre,

There is no conflict as long as you are able to keep issues of science separate from issues of faith. Science restricts itself to natural explanations of natural events and should be taught that way. Science should be taught as science. Religion should be taught as religion.
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