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Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

 
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Wed 24 Jan, 2007 04:04 pm
timberlandko wrote:
Mississippi's Mike Lott seems to think a half dozen consecutive Mississippi legislative defeats of similar bills and a solid, nation-wide body of case law reversing every previous attempt to enact similar legislation don't mean anything. What is it they say of continuing a consistently failed course of action in expectation of improved result through repetition? And these folks get upset when they're termed "ID-iots" Rolling Eyes


I suspect that some of these pols submit bills like this knowing they will fail, but garnering appreciation from their primary constituency for 'trying' anyway.
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rosborne979
 
  1  
Wed 24 Jan, 2007 04:16 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
I see similarities between Bush's candor and arrogance of not listening to the American People (75%) or the Iraqi People (80%) about his plan for a surge in Iraq. The voice of the people matters not when they have but one goal in mind.


Well, I have no love for Bush's choices either, but to be fair, a president isn't supposed to gather votes on every decision he makes, especially decisions which involve information sources which we (the voters) don't have access to.
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spendius
 
  1  
Wed 24 Jan, 2007 04:16 pm
c.i. wrote-

Quote:
The voice of the people matters not when they have but one goal in mind.


That's a bit strong c.i.

And suppose the goal is one that America, and the free-world, needs in the collective opinion of those who have been elected after a long and difficult process under scrutiny. What people want is not necessarily the same thing. By not wanting such a policy at this time they get what they need and can wash their hands on the methods used to achieve it.

There's talk here of "permanent war".
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farmerman
 
  1  
Thu 25 Jan, 2007 05:26 am
I visited the Design ID website yesterday, just to see whethere theres any breaking news since they rolled it out last summer. They havent even updated the website. Looks like the concept of the "search for design" is better said than accomplished.
Dembski has presented "specified complexity" a series of mathematical expressions that, to me, look like some Eularian description of fluid motion.Theres no harm in using math terms of one space in another set of coordinates. Itd just be nice to explain where your going . Math models usually grow out of attempts at description of phenomena, where there must be some sort of "Field equation" that sets the concept in motion . Dembski just sort of plops the equations down without any root derivation . That usually only happens when your initial conceptual model is kinda shaky. eg

"Lets assume that the moon is made of yogurt, so now we calculate the density of the body in space"
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Chumly
 
  1  
Thu 25 Jan, 2007 05:49 am
Intelligent Design
Humans, Cockroaches, and the Laws of Physics
Copyright © 1997 by Victor J. Stenger

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/cosmo.html
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spendius
 
  1  
Thu 25 Jan, 2007 07:25 am
It cannot be stressed enough that to the materialist there is only stuff and void, (see Armstrong and Skinner and many others).

Thus, and there is no alternative, mental states are physical objects. They may well be irreducibly complex in both composition and existence in time but they remain physical objects.

If any person has no non-material state (soul or spirit) then neither has anyone else unless there is a decisive, qualitative difference in human beings.

Thus the basic claim of AIDsers asserts that nobody, as with them, has a soul or a spirit. Which is fair enough.

If mental states are physical objects, as they must be to materialists, then the belief that there is a God and a soul is, in principle, the same as a belief that there is no God or soul.

Similarly with tastes. Preferring ice-cream with chocolate is, more or less, an identical physical object to the preference for ice-cream with raspberry sauce.

They are all, beliefs and tastes and thoughts and feelings, physical objects with no non-material component.

Thus the differences in beliefs can only arise from physical constitution conditioned or indocrinated into a congeries of habit on the preferred pathways principle within the central nervous system similar to the pathways animals make.

Thus arguments devolve to a clash of these congeries of habit brought about by different upbringings and cannot involve any principles.

In speculations regarding the infinite cosmos and the infinitessimal world of atomic structure the imagination, as Hume said, outruns our ability to confirm or rebut.

Thus disagreements about such speculations are mere clashes between the congeries of habit (personalities) and have no meaning.

In speculations concerning the here and now of human activity the imagination does not get to outrun the reality of life and social science provides some evidence that we can give meaning to them and act upon them.

Thus the social consequences of belief or non belief is the only game for mature grown ups.

If non-belief (materialism) is rejected for whatever reason then it becomes necessary to find and perfect a belief system which benefits society.

Demea has suggested that we simply do more justice to divine transcendence and mystery which Prof. Hepburn considers leads to "religiously toned agnosticism", a concept totally at odds with Creationism but which the ID movement could easily embrace and possibly does so.

The ID movement is only linked to Creationism by those who do not wish to debate these matters in a modern adult fashion and a general feature of such types is to sulk when they are not getting all their own way and to ignominiously retreat into a little stockade where they can pat each other on the back and keep each other's spirits up.

PS. I gather from another thread that non-believers comprise 13% of Americans.
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rosborne979
 
  1  
Thu 25 Jan, 2007 07:32 am
Chumley wrote:
Intelligent Design
Humans, Cockroaches, and the Laws of Physics
Copyright © 1997 by Victor J. Stenger

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/cosmo.html


The Article wrote:
As the bankruptcy of creation "science" becomes increasingly recognized, a new catch phrase, intelligent design, has been adopted by those who persist in their attempts to inject creationism into the science curriculum


It's interesting ... As noted above, the article was written in 1997, ten years ago. It took ten years for the equally bankrupt idea of ID to wend it's way through the society and wind up in courts where it was demolished.

But Wandel's thread, "Is ID science?" produced an answer almost immediately: No, it's not science. Since then we've been thrashing the dead horse every time some creationist comes along and nudges the carcass.

What's next on the creationist agenda? Is it Teach the Controversy? That one seems pretty weak also. I think they need something even more subtle. I think they need to push the idea that "non-religion" is a form of religion, and that non-religion should be banned from public schools due to the first amenement, just as religion is. Granted, that doesn't have anything to do with evolution, but it seems like their last hope.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Thu 25 Jan, 2007 07:50 am
ros-

The number of contributions on this thread by creationists is so small as to be of no account.
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Thu 25 Jan, 2007 01:45 pm
UK UPDATE

Quote:
Survival of the thickest
(Simon Underdown, The Guardian, January 24, 2007)

Evolution is a subject that elicits a wide range of responses: simple denial by the religious fundamentalist to demi-worship in the occasional scientist. However, the most common response, and the one that is most overlooked in this most crystallised of debates, is that of confusion. Although everyone has at least heard of Darwin, and probably have the phrase "survival of the fittest" somewhere in the back of their minds (a term, in fact, coined not by Darwin but by Herbert Spencer, in 1864), there does seem to be widespread public misunderstanding about evolution and the mechanisms by which it operates (for example, the oft-repeated question: "If we evolved from monkeys, why are there still monkeys?"). This problem can only be exacerbated by the announcement by the QCA that Intelligent Design (ID or "Creationism Lite") will be taught in Religious Education lessons in England.

Intelligent Design - the idea that organisms of great complexity cannot have evolved by natural selection and that a creator or God is therefore responsible for all or some life as we know it - is not a science, as it cannot be scientifically tested, as evolution continues to be. There is no debate among serious scientists beyond bemused amazement that small groups persist in holding ID up as a genuine alternative to Darwinian evolution.

Yet, even though the debate will take place in the RE classroom, the reverberations will be felt, not just in the science class but also across the educational sector as a whole. The decision to include ID in school curricula will give the impression that ID is a worthy alternative to evolution. This move by the QCA has the potential to do one of two things, depending on how it is taught: either show Intelligent Design for what it really is (empty waffle based on the creation myth) or to muddy the already murky waters of public understanding of Darwinian evolution.

We have come to a fork in the road. ID can be embraced as part of the curriculum (and, surely, that way madness lies) or it can be cast out into the wilderness; an historical footnote comparable with that written on the authorities who confidently opposed universal suffrage on "scientific grounds". ID is not science and, despite the increasingly vocal objections of a small minority, has yet even to fire a shot across the bows of Darwinian evolution. As a human evolutionary biologist, the thought of having to spend time explaining the glaring errors of ID to undergraduates at the expense of more worthy material fills me with dread.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Thu 25 Jan, 2007 01:46 pm
ros wrote:
What's next on the creationist agenda? Is it Teach the Controversy?
Seems to me that's pretty much where they're at; it would appear that The Wedge Document still is their constitution.

Something I really sorta getta kick outta is their plaintive posturing to the purported end of promoting "critical examination"; there's the petard on which unwittingly they hoist themselves - one concept which has zero potential to benefit through actual, honest, objective, open-ended critical examination is Creationism/ID-iocy.

Its only through their efforts in pressing the "Controversy" nonsense that "The Public" has developed the impression there might be any such thing as a controversy. Plainly it is evident the Creationists/ID-iots increasingly are attempting to foist the "nonreligion is religion too" absurdity - it IS all they have left.

Unless and until they quit misrepresenting themselves, misconstruing what science is, says, and does, and on their own come up with some actual science in support of their proposition as opposed to lying about themselves, science, and religion, all they've got is sillyness, smoke, mirrors, and snake oil. Their own longed-for "critical examination", employed honestly, is the single most potent weapon that can be deployed against the Creationsts'/ID-iots' persistent academic mendacity and philosophic duplicity.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Thu 25 Jan, 2007 01:47 pm
rosborne, Any president fighting a war without the support of the American People will never be successful. General Patreaus talks about "will" as a necessary ingredient for success. It seems to be lacking in both the American public and the Iraqis.
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spendius
 
  1  
Thu 25 Jan, 2007 02:44 pm
wande quoted-

Quote:
We have come to a fork in the road. ID can be embraced as part of the curriculum (and, surely, that way madness lies) or it can be cast out into the wilderness; an historical footnote comparable with that written on the authorities who confidently opposed universal suffrage on "scientific grounds". ID is not science and, despite the increasingly vocal objections of a small minority, has yet even to fire a shot across the bows of Darwinian evolution. As a human evolutionary biologist, the thought of having to spend time explaining the glaring errors of ID to undergraduates at the expense of more worthy material fills me with dread.


Surely no sensible person would take on a job that fills him with dread.

The opposition to universal suffrage and particularly to female suffrage was posited on social consequences ground. Events have not yet gone far enough to prove that the opposition was wrong.

Mr Underdown sounds rather sure of himself in the face of the authorities who, unlike him, were put to the trouble of getting elected.

We have not come to a fork in the road at all. He is overdramatising his own sense of importance.

Why does "madness" lie that way? That isn't the language one expects to see in a supposedly respectable newspaper. And neither will ID be cast into the wilderness. Not by a long chalk.

We know ID isn't science in one way of looking at it. And the QCA recognises that. And you don't fire shots across the bows of Darwinian evolution.

And "small minority" is a bit iffy for an independent editor who respects his reader's intelligence.

How can there be glaring errors in a faith?

We know where media come from on this issue.

timber-

Why do you persist in connecting Creationism to ID. They are enemies.

I presume you do so because you can't deal with ID and so the soft target of Creationism comes to your aid through your connecting them.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Thu 25 Jan, 2007 03:16 pm
Yep, the Wedge Document is still "the roadmap". It, and its bilateral logicis like that alien on the old Star tRek, played by Alex(?) Gorshin. One side of his face was black and the other white.. The wedge document contains a descriptor that the search for design is a scientific discipline ... (jumping ahead a few pages)...any science that leaves Christ out of the picture is fundementally deficient.


If we were to carry the ID origins back all the way to Paley, he actually had a divine intelligence behind every puff of wind that strategically blew seeds about and the strengths of which was causal in a seeds distant dispersal. HE also embraced hydraulics as an example of the "Creators" hand. "A stream, left in its bank, has the capacity to cause motility in the largest of germ plasmas" What oatmeal that boy spewed

However, Paley had Darwin safely in his grasp even until Darwins death. Seems that the "intelligence" behind intelligent design, could not be argued against in a scientific discussion at that time, so Darwin, in a letter to the Duke of Argyll, in the last year of his life said (when speaking about the Design implicit behind an orchid)
"Well, it (ID as a concept) often comes over me with overwhelming force, but at other times, it seems to go away"

ImAGINE , OUR VERY OWN HOOD ORNAMENT, A CLOSET IDer. :wink:
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farmerman
 
  1  
Thu 25 Jan, 2007 03:21 pm
FROM WANDEL'S ARTICLE
Quote:
Intelligent Design - the idea that organisms of great complexity cannot have evolved by natural selection and that a creator or God is therefore responsible for all or some life as we know it - is not a science, as it cannot be scientifically tested, as evolution continues to be. There is no debate among serious scientists beyond bemused amazement that small groups persist in holding ID up as a genuine alternative to Darwinian evolution.
.

..i LIKE THE END WHERE a teacher shudders at the cost in time that he must make to shoot down the framework of ID before he can go on to teach something useful to his biology class.
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spendius
 
  1  
Thu 25 Jan, 2007 04:28 pm
fm wrote-

Quote:
ImAGINE , OUR VERY OWN HOOD ORNAMENT, A CLOSET IDer.


I must have told you that ten times fm. And supplied a quote or two.

He would still be now if he was here. He points to the utter incompatibility between feeling and scientific certainty. And he was a scientist. So what about the workers then?

Quote:
..i LIKE THE END WHERE a teacher shudders at the cost in time that he must make to shoot down the framework of ID before he can go on to teach something useful to his biology class.


I bet you have been proffering jibes like that for 30 years. Can you really not move on. Can you not wonder about Darwin being overwhelmed and respect it. Perhaps you never felt such a feeling.

Maybe he was so industrious precisely to make the feeling go away or at least seem to. Occupational therapy. You know. Restaurants and ****.
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spendius
 
  1  
Thu 25 Jan, 2007 04:30 pm
Actually fm he would be a closet ID-iot wouldn't he?
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Thu 25 Jan, 2007 07:07 pm
Quote:
Basler chair defends scientific method

Visiting professor discusses intelligent design and evolution
Guy Kramer
Posted: 1/25/07

Science has been forced into a defensive position according to visiting professor and Basler Chair Dr. George Kampis. "What we need in science now is an offensive that is not offensive," he said during a lecture given Monday evening in the D.P. Culp auditorium.

Kampis' lecture, titled "Intelligent Design Theory and the Poverty of Anti-Science Thought", focused on the debate between supporters of evolution and those who insist that living things were created by an Intelligent Designer.
The Intelligent Design movement holds that living organisms are too complex to have arisen through random mutation and natural selection, and therefore must have been designed by some outside entity.

While ID supporters have long sought to have their theory taught in higher education, Kampis believes the science classroom is the last place ID should appear.
"ID pretends to be an alternative form of science, but to me is really a combination of creation theories," Kampis said. "Supporters of Intelligent Design don't take the normal route to creating a theory. They don't write peer reviewed papers or present research at scientific seminars."

Kampis, who readily admits Charles Darwin is one of his lifetime heroes, was critical of the methods used by ID supporters. "When they can't explain a phenomenon they immediately claim that it must be the work of God. This is just giving in," he said.
Kampis briefly described the main supporters of the Intelligent Design movement.
Dr. Phillip Johnson, ID founder and longtime critic of Charles Darwin, rejects the concept of natural selection and has referred to evolution as "the creation myth of the modern age."

"The first thing I noticed about it is that it contradicts the book of Genesis. It actually contradicts a whole lot more than that because, as the scientists define evolution, it is inherently a purposeless, mindless process that produced human beings as an accident," Johnson wrote in a recent article.

Johnson co-founded the Discovery Institute, a think tank that promotes the teaching of ID in the science classroom. According to the institutes "wedge" document, "Design theory promises to reverse the stifling dominance of the materialist worldview, and to replace it with a science consonant with Christian and theistic convictions."

Proponents of ID point to the irreducible complexity of organisms as evidence of design. Irreducibly complex organisms are "composed of several well-matched, interacting parts that contribute to the basic function, wherein the removal of any one of the parts causes the system to effectively cease functioning," stated ID advocate Michael Behe in his 1996 book, Darwin's Black Box: The Biochemical Challenge to Evolution.

Kampis argued that evolutionary theory is well grounded in facts and cited Darwin's own observations as evidence for evolution.
In 1831, Darwin began a five year journey on the HMS Beagle. He spent time in the Galapagos Archipelago and noticed minute differences in the individual species he examined as he travelled from one island to the next. The further he traveled, the more modification he observed. Darwin argued that those changes could be explained by gradual migration of a species and that migration and variation went hand in hand.
"This is the biggest discovery Darwin made on his voyage. The variation of species observed was like a memory of how the animal changed through time," Kampis said.

Kampis, who heads the Department of History and Philosophy of Science at Eötvös University in Hungary, was invited to ETSU through the Wayne G. Basler Chair of Excellence program. The Basler program invites professors to teach at ETSU in order "to bridge the gap that exists in academia between the sciences and the arts and humanities disciplines."

Kampis' lecture generated a diverse range of viewpoints. "It was very informative," said senior pre-med student Maleka Khambaty. "We were introduced to a little bit of Intelligent Design in one of my classes and he raised a good point when he said Intelligent Design wasn't science," she said.

While senior Carla Thompson believes teaching ID in a science classroom would cause minor chaos, she does think students should be free to learn about it. "I believe students should at least be informed within the classroom that Intelligent Design does exist as a serious alternative to evolution. They should also be given information on places where they can go to learn about these ideas" she said. "I do not see why a church would not welcome the questions of an inquisitive college student."

Philosophy professor Dr. David Harker questioned the effectiveness of debating supporters of Intelligent Design. "I think it's a hot topic right now," Harker said, "but to engage in the debate seems to fuel it. When eminent scientists respond to ID supporters, it provides them with a platform and a sense of credibility."
"Though science doesn't really ever prove its theories, many theories are well supported. In virtue of the way science works, you're never going to prove anything. However, if you insist a theory should be proven before being taught, then all of science will go by the wayside," Harker said.

Though Harker asserted that ID didn't belong in the science classroom, he did support bringing ID into higher education. "I think many of the issues ID raises should be discussed," Harker said, adding that those topics would fit into a philosophy of science class.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
© Copyright 2007 East Tennessean
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spendius
 
  1  
Thu 25 Jan, 2007 07:16 pm
timber quoted-

Quote:
What we need in science now is an offensive that is not offensive,"


I can't quite see how that is manageable given the state of the respectable ladies to whom we owe such a debt of gratitude.

It is quite obvious that Mr Kramer only looks into the science he is comfortable with.

The lady who fainted clean away when Darwin gave his famous speech was not kidding.
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Thu 25 Jan, 2007 07:17 pm
farmerman wrote:
..i LIKE THE END WHERE a teacher shudders at the cost in time that he must make to shoot down the framework of ID before he can go on to teach something useful to his biology class.


Farmerman,
Even though the writer teaches biology, he does not want intelligent design included in religious education, either. Some of the parents in the Dover lawsuit said it was okay to teach ID in comparative religion classes, as long as ID was not taught in science class. Now the UK education ministry is actually putting ID in comparative religion classes. The biology teacher in today's article states that this would still give ID credibility it does not deserve. I posted a different UK article a couple of weeks ago where a Church of England Canon criticized the education ministry for making religious education a dumping ground for fantasy.
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Pauligirl
 
  1  
Thu 25 Jan, 2007 08:43 pm
spendius wrote:


The ID movement is only linked to Creationism by those who do not wish to debate these matters in a modern adult fashion and a general feature of such types is to sulk when they are not getting all their own way and to ignominiously retreat into a little stockade where they can pat each other on the back and keep each other's spirits up.



It's linked because the same folks invented both. When they couldn't get in schools with creationism, they changed it to ID.

Quote:
"Devastating" early drafts of a controversial book recommended as reading at a US high school reveal how the word "creationism" had been later swapped for "intelligent design", a landmark US trial scrutinising the teaching of ID heard on Wednesday.
The early drafts of the book Of Pandas and People, were used as evidence to link the book to creationism, which it is illegal to teach in government-funded US schools.
"ID proponents have said for years that they are not creationists," says Nick Matzke of the National Center for Science Education in Oakland, California, which is advising 11 parents who are suing the school board of Dover High School in Pennsylvania for incorporating ID into the science curriculum. "This proves beyond a doubt that this is simply a new name for creationism."

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn8061

I'm pretty sure this has been pointed out to you before.
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