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Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

 
 
spendius
 
  1  
Thu 4 Jan, 2007 09:06 am
Well if it was me Steve I can't say I felt anything. You've got the wrong man guv.
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Thu 4 Jan, 2007 09:21 am
Well he shouldnt be playing ice hockey at his age anyway.
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spendius
 
  1  
Thu 4 Jan, 2007 09:40 am
He might only do the bully-offs. That's not very strenuous.
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Thu 4 Jan, 2007 09:44 am
U.S. CONGRESS UPDATE

Quote:
Resolution for 2007: Stop the ACLU
(EDITORIAL OPINION, Judge Roy Moore, WorldNet Daily, January 3, 2007)

Each year the American Civil Liberties Union and other liberal organizations continue their efforts to destroy traditional values that we once assumed were self-evident and beyond question. And each year we sit quietly by doing nothing to stop their relentless assault on our culture and our religious heritage. As our resolution for the New Year, let us join together to defeat the ACLU's anti-Christian agenda and restore our civil and religious freedom. Below are three opportunities available to us to accomplish that goal.

On Feb. 28, 2007, the case of Hein v. Freedom From Religion Foundation will be heard before the United States Supreme Court. At issue in Hein is whether individuals or organizations have a right to bring a suit in court (standing) merely because they disagree with the expenditure of taxpayer funds to faith-based groups in the same manner in which such funds are given to secular organizations. For many years federal courts have allowed liberal organizations like the ACLU and the individuals they represent to bring an action in federal court despite the fact that no "case" or "controversy" required by the Constitution actually existed. Historically, hypothetical questions and philosophical disagreements with government policy were not sufficient to give a plaintiff standing to sue in court. In order to bring an action, a plaintiff has to have a real legal dispute with a person or entity and has to have suffered actual harm or "concrete injury."

However, in 1968 the Supreme Court in Flast v. Cohen made an exception to the rules of standing and allowed a taxpayer lawsuit against Congress for appropriations given to parochial schools. The taxpayers had no direct interest or actual injury, but simply disagreed with the expenditure given to religious schools and felt that it violated the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment.

Since the Flast decision, the ACLU and others have used this loophole to flood the courts with lawsuits in which taxpayer monies had a relationship with anything religious or any connection with an activity that acknowledged a sovereign God. For example, in 2005 a federal judge in Indiana ruled that taxpayers represented by the ACLU had standing to challenge the Indiana House of Representatives for its custom of opening its sessions with prayer in the name of Jesus. That federal judge cited Flast as an exception to the general rule that "[f]ederal taxpayers are generally not permitted to bring suit challenging federal government expenditures," and ordered the Legislature to stop prayers.

Other actions involving the Pledge of Allegiance and displays of the Ten Commandments of God have been attacked using this same exception to our legal principles of standing. In the Hein case pending before the high court, we have an opportunity to stop this abuse of our Constitution, which has given special favoritism to the ACLU and others who have an anti-God agenda. The Foundation for Moral Law will be filing a legal brief in this case Friday, Jan. 5.

Another opportunity to stop the ACLU agenda would be the passage of the Constitution Restoration Act by Congress (S. 520 and H.R. 1070 last year). As I explained in an earlier column ("The solution to save the Pledge"), the CRA would stop federal courts from exercising jurisdiction over cases in which God is acknowledged as the sovereign source of life, liberty or government. The First Amendment prohibits Congress from making any law prohibiting the "free exercise" of our religion. How, then, can federal judges, a part of the national government, presume to tell us how, when or where we can acknowledge God?

Finally, passage of the Public Expression of Religion Act, or PERA, (H.R. 2679 in the 109th Congress), would prevent federal courts from awarding attorney's fees to the ACLU and other liberal organizations who have taken advantage of an exception created by Congress regarding the award of attorney's fees in civil rights cases. As I explained in my column entitled "No more tax money for the ACLU," the ACLU should no longer be richly rewarded for groundless attacks on our religious liberty.

No better resolution for this New Year could be made than a commitment to stop the ACLU and other groups like them in their vicious assault on our faith and morality. Please contact your representative and senator in Congress and demand support for the Constitution Restoration Act and the Public Expression of Religion Act. And pray that the United States Supreme Court will find in the Hein case that the Flast exception created in 1968 should be discarded so that plaintiffs can no longer sue simply because they disagree with the faith upon which our country was founded.

Let's make 2007 a year the ACLU will never forget!
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spendius
 
  1  
Thu 4 Jan, 2007 09:53 am
Hear, hear!!
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Thu 4 Jan, 2007 10:37 am
Judge Roy Moore wrote:
And pray that the United States Supreme Court will find in the Hein case that the Flast exception created in 1968 should be discarded so that plaintiffs can no longer sue simply because they disagree with the faith upon which our country was founded.


As a Brit it gives me particular pleasure to call "Judge" Roy Moore an imbecillic prat and not worthy of office

George Washington wrote:
As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in intelf no character of enmity against the lwas religion or trnaquillity of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is delared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.


Signed John Adams 1797
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Thu 4 Jan, 2007 10:57 am
Steve 41oo wrote:
Judge Roy Moore wrote:
And pray that the United States Supreme Court will find in the Hein case that the Flast exception created in 1968 should be discarded so that plaintiffs can no longer sue simply because they disagree with the faith upon which our country was founded.


As a Brit it gives me particular pleasure to call "Judge" Roy Moore an imbecillic prat and not worthy of office

George Washington wrote:
As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in intelf no character of enmity against the lwas religion or trnaquillity of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is delared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.


Signed John Adams 1797


And whatever one thinks of Judge Roy Moore, a balanced (and honest) appraisal of our founders intent cannot be properly assesed by one questionable quote attributed to George Washington but signed by John Adams?

Let's look at what our founders have said from verifiable sources:

George Washington
As the contempt of the religion of a country by ridiculing any of its ceremonies, or affronting its ministers or votaries, has ever been deeply resented, you are to be particularly careful to restrain every officer from such imprudence and folly, and to punish every instance of it. On the other hand, as far as lies in your power, you are to protect and support the free exercise of religion of the country, and the undisturbed enjoyment of the rights of conscience in religious matters, with your utmost influence and authority. [George Washington, to Benedict Arnold, September 14, 1775 from The Washington papers edited by Saul Padover]

The blessed Religion revealed in the word of God will remain an eternal and awful monument to prove that the best Institutions may be abused by human depravity; and that they may even, in some instances, be made subservient to the vilest of purposes. - George Washington

...I beg you be persuaded that no one would be more zealous than myself to establish effectual barriers against the horrors of spiritual tyranny, and every species of religious persecution. [George Washington, to reassure protections afforded to the United Baptists Churches of Virginia, May, 1789 from The Washington papers edited by Saul Padover]

John Adams
t is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue.
(Source: John Adams, The Works of John Adams, Second President of the United States, Charles Francis Adams, editor (Boston: Little, Brown, 1854), Vol. IX, p. 401, to Zabdiel Adams on June 21, 1776.)

[W]e have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. . . . Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.
(Source: John Adams, The Works of John Adams, Second President of the United States, Charles Francis Adams, editor (Boston: Little, Brown, and Co. 1854), Vol. IX, p. 229, October 11, 1798.)

The moment the idea is admitted into society, that property is not as sacred as the laws of God, and that there is not a force of law and public justice to protect it, anarchy and tyranny commence. If "Thou shalt not covet," and "Thou shalt not steal," were not commandments of Heaven, they must be made inviolable precepts in every society, before it can be civilized or made free.
(Source: John Adams, The Works of John Adams, Second President of the United States, Charles Francis Adams, editor (Boston: Charles C. Little and James Brown, 1851), Vol. VI, p. 9.)

Framer of the First Amendment: Fisher Ames
Our liberty depends on our education, our laws, and habits . . . it is founded on morals and religion, whose authority reigns in the heart, and on the influence all these produce on public opinion before that opinion governs rulers.
(Source: Fisher Ames, An Oration on the Sublime Virtues of General George Washington (Boston: Young & Minns, 1800), p. 23.)

James McHenry: Signer of the Declaration of Independence
Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime & pure, [and] which denounces against the wicked eternal misery, and [which] insured to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments.
(Source: Bernard C. Steiner, The Life and Correspondence of James McHenry (Cleveland: The Burrows Brothers, 1907), p. 475. In a letter from Charles Carroll to James McHenry of November 4, 1800.)

James Madison
I have lived, Sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without his aid? We have been assured, Sir, in the Sacred Writings, that "except the Lord build the House, they labor in vain that build it." I firmly believe this; and I also believe that without His concurring aid we shall succeed in this political building no better, than the Builders of Babel: We shall be divided by our partial local interests; our projects will be confounded, and we ourselves shall become a reproach and bye word down to future ages. And what is worse, mankind may hereafter from this unfortunate instance, despair of establishing governments by human wisdom and leave it to chance, war and conquest.
I therefore beg leave to move that henceforth prayers imploring the assistance of Heaven, and its blessings on our deliberations be held in this Assembly every morning before we proceed to business, and that one or more of the clergy of this city be requested to officiate in that service.
(Source: James Madison, The Records of the Federal Convention of 1787, Max Farrand, editor (New Haven: Yale University Press, 1911), Vol. I, pp. 450-452, June 28, 1787.)
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Thu 4 Jan, 2007 11:04 am
In fact, based on the preceding posts, I wonder how the Founders would have ruled on the issue of whether ID should be taught (or allowed to be mentioned) in the schools?
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Thu 4 Jan, 2007 11:11 am
Steve 41oo wrote:
Judge Roy Moore wrote:
And pray that the United States Supreme Court will find in the Hein case that the Flast exception created in 1968 should be discarded so that plaintiffs can no longer sue simply because they disagree with the faith upon which our country was founded.


As a Brit it gives me particular pleasure to call "Judge" Roy Moore an imbecillic prat and not worthy of office

George Washington wrote:
As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in intelf no character of enmity against the lwas religion or trnaquillity of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is delared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.


Signed John Adams 1797


The treaty was drafted by Washington, signed by Adams

Richard Dawkins in his book The God Delusion wrote:
The opening words of this (above) quotation would cause uproar in today's Washington ascendency. Yet Ed Buckner has convincingly demonstrated that they caused no dissent at the time, among either politicians or public.
The paradox has often been noted that the United States, founded in secularism, is now the most religiose country in Christendom, while England, with an established church headed by its constitutional monarch, is among the least.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Thu 4 Jan, 2007 11:14 am
Foxfyre wrote:
In fact, based on the preceding posts, I wonder how the Founders would have ruled on the issue of whether ID should be taught (or allowed to be mentioned) in the schools?


Foxfyre,

In my opinion, the Founders were practical men. They would want science to be taught as science and religion to be taught as religion. The controversy in Dover occurred only because there was an attempt to teach intelligent design as science. In the first 300 pages of this thread, I actually tried to determine if intelligent design qualifies as science. In my opinion, it does not qualify as science unless the definition of science is changed to include non-natural phenomena.

Jefferson and Franklin, of course, were experienced in natural science. I doubt that intelligent design would meet their criteria for science.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Thu 4 Jan, 2007 11:37 am
wandeljw wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
In fact, based on the preceding posts, I wonder how the Founders would have ruled on the issue of whether ID should be taught (or allowed to be mentioned) in the schools?


Foxfyre,

In my opinion, the Founders were practical men. They would want science to be taught as science and religion to be taught as religion. The controversy in Dover occurred only because there was an attempt to teach intelligent design as science. In the first 300 pages of this thread, I actually tried to determine if intelligent design qualifies as science. In my opinion, it does not qualify as science unless the definition of science is changed to include non-natural phenomena.

Jefferson and Franklin, of course, were experienced in natural science. I doubt that intelligent design would meet their criteria for science.


I agree though as I think I have previously mentioned in this thread, my own science teachers did not presume to meddle in the faith or religious beliefs/teachings of their students. So the rule of thumb was to acknowledge that ID was one of many theories for the origins of the universe but that it cannot be proved scientifically. So whatever you (kids) believe is great but that won't be on the test. Questions re Darwin will be on the test.
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Thu 4 Jan, 2007 11:38 am
Fox, of the quotes you produced, only McHenry specifically mentions Christianity, and even then only in defense of it against attack. The others talk of "religion", what proof do you have that they meant Christianity or a version thereof?
0 Replies
 
spidergal
 
  1  
Thu 4 Jan, 2007 11:42 am
Don't know if this link has been posted before on this thread, but some of you may find this interesting: http://www.csicop.org/si/2005-11/id.html
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Thu 4 Jan, 2007 11:47 am
Steve 41oo wrote:
Fox, of the quotes you produced, only McHenry specifically mentions Christianity, and even then only in defense of it against attack. The others talk of "religion", what proof do you have that they meant Christianity or a version thereof?


I think in the interest of religious freedom, they were mostly careful to avoid naming a specific religion, though every now and then one would insert references to their own personal faith. They were absolutely determined that no religious group would have control of the government--mostly because of their experience with English government Smile as well as because of infighting that was already occurring among different sects in this country--and they were just as committed to ensure that government would have no power to interfere with (or forbid) any manner of religion that most believed to be critical to the moral underpinnings of the new naton. In reading volumes of the Federalist Papers and similar documents, this becomes crystal clear.

So, they ultimately achieved a secular government based on moral principles arising out of their religious beliefs. So you can accurately say that America was founded on religious and/or Christian principles and you can also accurately say that it was founded as a secular nation. Your choice. Smile
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Thu 4 Jan, 2007 12:38 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
So the rule of thumb was to acknowledge that ID was one of many theories for the origins of the universe

There is the structurally fatal flaw to which ID-iocy falls; it does not and cannot meet the requirements necessary for any proposition to be considered a theory in any scientific sense - wholly apart from any other question. It is simply a proposition, a point of view, on a par with Scientology or Wicca; it lacks even so dubious a foundation as may be laid to homeopathy.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Thu 4 Jan, 2007 12:53 pm
timberlandko wrote:
Foxfyre wrote:
So the rule of thumb was to acknowledge that ID was one of many theories for the origins of the universe

There is the structurally fatal flaw to which ID-iocy falls; it does not and cannot meet the requirements necessary for any proposition to be considered a theory in any scientific sense - wholly apart from any other question. It is simply a proposition, a point of view.


OKay but I think we're really splitting hairs there:

From the Merriam Webster online dictionary
Quote:
Main Entry: the·o·ry
Function: noun
Pronunciation: 'the-&-re, 'thi(-&)r-e
Inflected Form(s): plural -ries
Etymology: Late Latin theoria, from Greek theOria, from theOrein
1 : the analysis of a set of facts in their relation to one another
2 : abstract thought : SPECULATION
3 : the general or abstract principles of a body of fact, a science, or an art <music>
4 a : a belief, policy, or procedure proposed or followed as the basis of action <her> b : an ideal or hypothetical set of facts, principles, or circumstances -- often used in the phrase in theory <in>
5 : a plausible or scientifically acceptable general principle or body of principles offered to explain phenomena <wave>
6 a : a hypothesis assumed for the sake of argument or investigation b : an unproved assumption : CONJECTURE c : a body of theorems presenting a concise systematic view of a subject <theory>
synonym see HYPOTHESIS


But now, consider that most of us were taught that Isaac Newton conceived a notion of gravity by observing the objects always fall to the ground and never sideways or up. So was his conclusion that there was a force we came to call gravity just a proposition or point of view, or can we call it the basis of a scientific theory? It would be a long time before the theory was 'proved' or scientifically accepted.

How about Columbus observing that he saw first the tip of the mast of an approaching ship before the rest of the mast and then the ship came into view and concluded from this that there was a curvature to the Earth. Was this just a proposition or point of view, or can we call that the basis of a scientific theory? It would be a long time before the theory was 'proved' or scientifcally accepted.

Now consider the one who observes other factors--far too many to name here--related to form, function, process, symmetry, predictability, and unexplainable anomalies including the unexplainable and concludes that there is some kind of intelligence behind it all. Is this really so different than the conclusions of Newton or Columbus? Admittedly it is not universally accepted,, but there are a fair number of scientists who believe it.

I think it qualifies as theory. We can't prove it at this time, but neither could Newton prove his theory at the time he conceived it. But how can we be certain that it will never be proved?
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Thu 4 Jan, 2007 01:15 pm
Foxfyre wrote:
I think it qualifies as theory. We can't prove it at this time, but neither could Newton prove his theory at the time he conceived it. But how can we be certain that it will never be proved?

Irrelevant. What you think matters not a whit in the question of ID-iocy's status specifically as scientific theory; it simply, demonstrably, and by definition, isn't scientific theory.

Quote:
Scientific Laws, Hypotheses, and Theories
Lay people often misinterpret the language used by scientists. And for that reason, they sometimes draw the wrong conclusions as to what the scientific terms mean.

Three such terms that are often used interchangeably are "scientific law," "hypothesis," and "theory."

In layman's terms, if something is said to be "just a theory," it usually means that it is a mere guess, or is unproved. It might even lack credibility. But in scientific terms, a theory implies that something has been proven and is generally accepted as being true.

Here is what each of these terms means to a scientist:

Scientific Law: This is a statement of fact meant to explain, in concise terms, an action or set of actions. It is generally accepted to be true and univseral, and can sometimes be expressed in terms of a single mathematical equation. Scientific laws are similar to mathematical postulates. They don't really need any complex external proofs; they are accepted at face value based upon the fact that they have always been observed to be true.

Some scientific laws, or laws of nature, include the law of gravity, the law of thermodynamics, and Hook's law of elasticity.

Hypothesis: This is an educated guess based upon observation. It is a rational explanation of a single event or phenomenon based upon what is observed, but which has not been proved. Most hypotheses can be supported or refuted by experimentation or continued observation.

Theory: A theory is more like a scientific law than a hypothesis. A theory is an explanation of a set of related observations or events based upon proven hypotheses and verified multiple times by detached groups of researchers. One scientist cannot create a theory; he can only create a hypothesis.

In general, both a scientific theory and a scientific law are accepted to be true by the scientific community as a whole. Both are used to make predictions of events. Both are used to advance technology.

The biggest difference between a law and a theory is that a theory is much more complex and dynamic. A law governs a single action, whereas a theory explains a whole series of related phenomena.

An analogy can be made using a slingshot and an automobile.

A scientific law is like a slingshot. A slingshot has but one moving part--the rubber band. If you put a rock in it and draw it back, the rock will fly out at a predictable speed, depending upon the distance the band is drawn back.

An automobile has many moving parts, all working in unison to perform the chore of transporting someone from one point to another point. An automobile is a complex piece of machinery. Sometimes, improvements are made to one or more component parts. A new set of spark plugs that are composed of a better alloy that can withstand heat better, for example, might replace the existing set. But the function of the automobile as a whole remains unchanged.

A theory is like the automobile. Components of it can be changed or improved upon, without changing the overall truth of the theory as a whole.

Some scientific theories include the theory of evolution, the theory of relativity, and the quantum theory. All of these theories are well documented and proved beyond reasonable doubt. Yet scientists continue to tinker with the component hypotheses of each theory in an attempt to make them more elegant and concise, or to make them more all-encompassing. Theories can be tweaked, but they are seldom, if ever, entirely replaced.


Now, ID-iocy would have itself accorded status as scientific theory, thereby meriting inclusion within science curriculae. I challenge you, or any proponent of ID-iocy, to demonstrate that ID-iocy meets the qualifications necessary to be considered a scientific theory. Where is its literature, legitimately, independently peer-reviewed, accepted, and published in academically and scientifically accreditted journals? Where is its research, and where is any independent duplication and/or corroboration of that research? What evidence - not claim, not dispute of existing evidence or interpretation thereof, but actual, empirical, verifiable, duplicable evidence - in support of its proposition does ID-iocy bring to the table? Where is its science?
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Eiadeo
 
  1  
Thu 4 Jan, 2007 01:30 pm
I was going to join in, but on checking I see that the case against ID has been adequately covered between pages 1 and 876.
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Thu 4 Jan, 2007 01:39 pm
excellent post Timber.

Fox falls squarely into the category of someone who misinterprets the language of science.

ID most certainly is not a theory. Its a simple 'God of the gaps' proposition. And when science plugs a gap, they say there's a gap either side, thats two gaps therefore twice as much proof that God exists. Ludicrous. Simplistic. Childish. Totally unworthy of serious debate. "Breathtaking inanity" in the words of Judge John E Jones commenting on the testimony of Michael Behe.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Thu 4 Jan, 2007 01:51 pm
Perhaps unresolved - at least appearing to offer seemingly valid basis for dispute - is the question of whether or not ID-iocy is religion, however, whatever else it may or may not be, that ID-iocy is not science is established overwhelmingly beyond reasonable doubt, semantically, academically, scientifically, and legally; that discussion is over.
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