ros saidQuote:I wonder how much the Pennsylvania case will be used as precident on the California case.
In as much as the Dover case dealt with one specific area regarding the schools desire to slip a religious viewpoint into the biology curriculum , and the judge applied 2 specific tests ,(called the Lemon test and the Endorsement test), both of these were outgrowths of Louisiana and Arkansas where it dealt with schoolkids STILL in school. This one may not have any tangents to the Establishment clause.
I wish someone like Tico, Deb Law, or Joe from... would give an opinion, Im hanging out with my own thoughts here and I could be all wet.
farmerman wrote:I wish someone like Tico, Deb Law, or Joe from... would give an opinion, Im hanging out with my own thoughts here and I could be all wet.
Yes. It seems that we are all just guessing. Although what timber said "sounds fair", I have a feeling that Christian school students will claim that they have an unfair burden. Although there are other methods, the "pre-approved courses" route is used by
eighty percent of the applicants.
I will try to PM joefromchicago to help us. (He may not be happy to hear from me. I am a White Sox fan.... he is a Cubs fan. You know how that goes.
)
First Witch: Thrice the brinded cat hath mew'd.
Second Witch: Thrice and once the hedge-pig whined.
Third Witch: Harpier cries 'Tis time, 'tis time.
First Witch Round about the cauldron go;
In the poison'd entrails throw.
Toad, that under cold stone
Days and nights has thirty-one
Swelter'd venom sleeping got,
Boil thou first i' the charmed pot.
ALL: Double, double toil and trouble;
Fire burn, and cauldron bubble.
Second Witch: Fillet of a fenny snake,
In the cauldron boil and bake;
Eye of newt and toe of frog,
Wool of bat and tongue of dog,
Adder's fork and blind-worm's sting,
Lizard's leg and owlet's wing,
For a charm of powerful trouble,
Like a hell-broth boil and bubble.
ALL: Double, double toil and trouble;
Fire burn and cauldron bubble.
Third Witch: Scale of dragon, tooth of wolf,
Witches' mummy, maw and gulf
Of the ravin'd salt-sea shark,
Root of hemlock digg'd i' the dark,
Liver of blaspheming Jew,
Gall of goat, and slips of yew
Silver'd in the moon's eclipse,
Nose of Turk and Tartar's lips,
Finger of birth-strangled babe
Ditch-deliver'd by a drab,
Make the gruel thick and slab:
Add thereto a tiger's chaudron,
For the ingredients of our cauldron.
ALL Double, double toil and trouble;
Fire burn and cauldron bubble.
Second Witch Cool it with a baboon's blood,
Then the charm is firm and good.
I'm sorry viewers.
I liked the "baboon's blood joke" too much not to want to share it.
The fact that Pinker even was inspired to write it I find a bit discouraging. Oh well, at least Princeton isnt publishing axiomatic stuff as deep thought.
I thought the article poor as well.
Where did "menu", "sheperding" and "lurk" come from?
I'm not sure Harvard is the "world's most prominent university".
And I'm not sure science and technology should be linked like Pinker does.
The article was a bit simple. True science isn't bothered about a lot of the things mentioned.
In following the exploits of Homer's hero Dante has him making one voyage not in Homer. It is a voyage which expresses a desire for knowledge for its own sake. The Faustian project. The pact with the Devil. The forbidden fruit. The Fall. The Original Sin.
You can't get something for nothing.
In Canto XXVI Dante's Ulysses says-
"Neither fondness for my son nor reverence for my aged father, nor the due love that should have cheered Penelope, could conquer in me the ardor that I had to gain experience of the world, and of human vice and worth."
Joyce followed Dante in that regard with the words he puts in the mouth of Stephen at the end of Portrait-
"Welcome, O life."
But Pinker does have the nerve to include nepotism. (Dread word).
Veblen is of the same mind. The true scientist's lust for knowledge for its own sake transcends state, church and family and is truly eccentric.
Back to the Mad Scientist of popular imagination. It's not for the masses and the educational system is to do with nothing else.
Pinker is steering a crafty course (nothing wrong with that). He wishes to be an approved member of the educational elite, which Veblen was not, and to bask in the glow of science at the same time.
It can't be done without causing some sniggering.
"Silence, exile, and cunning" is how Stephen translates the Carthusian motto- "Fuge, Late, Tace," which Joyce takes from Balzac's Le Medecin de campagne.
Reading newspapers and periodicals and watching TV self flatteringly is a sure way to get all mixed up. There's nothing like the frontiers of knowledge to get the university management boards shifting uncomfortably in their expensive chairs. Especially on the "vice and human worth" issue.
wandeljw wrote:Yes. It seems that we are all just guessing. Although what timber said "sounds fair", I have a feeling that Christian school students will claim that they have an unfair burden. Although there are other methods, the "pre-approved courses" route is used by
eighty percent of the applicants.
I will try to PM joefromchicago to help us. (He may not be happy to hear from me. I am a White Sox fan.... he is a Cubs fan. You know how that goes.
)
Always glad to hear from you,
wandeljw. I am by no means an expert on this area of constitutional law, but I think
timber's take on this case is largely correct. As long as the UC regents provide an alternative means for students to get admitted (by taking a standardized test rather than by fulfilling a particular high school curriculum), then there's probably no first amendment "chilling effect" here.
As I understand it, the case is still in its earliest stages. If this gets to the US supreme court (which appears to be what the plaintiffs want), it most likely won't work its way up through the system for another three or four years.
By which time other events will have appeared on the radar whilst the two sides chew their bone in the channels with a wake of paper, mainly invoices, tossing hither and thither on the surface of life as the ship of state ploughs along, serenely or otherwise, on its destined journey through time.
Thanks, joe! The plaintiffs in the case include Association of Christian Schools International (ACSI). The defendant is the University of California system. There was a ruling in August to deny UC's motion for dismissal. However, the judge upheld UC's claim that the individual Regents were not to be sued.
Did you like my mixed metaphor wande?
wandeljw wrote:UK UPDATE
Quote:City school under attack in religion or science debate
(Sam Lister, Liverpool Daily Post, November 28, 2006)
It is being introduced into Blue Coat's teaching by Nick Cowan, head of chemistry, who will use DVDs to put forward the theory as an alternative to the evolution theory.
The teaching pack, which also includes a manual, has been produced by the Truth in Science group.
Mr Cowan, one of the school's most respected teachers at the Wavertree school, is well known among staff and pupils for his strong religious beliefs.
What a shock. A guy with strong religious beliefs promoting ID. We've never seen that before.
I haven't even looked up the Truth in Science group yet, but I bet key members are also known for their 'strong religious beliefs'.
You have got it wrong again boys.
What it is is that certain people have been watching your cases with some envy at how easy it is to get your name in the paper and possibly even be actually on TV by stirring up the **** and generally making waves which they know the media is dead keen on not only for the smell but of how sweet it is. Lucre and sucre don't rhyme for no reason.
One would naturally expect Liverpool to be at the cutting edge of such procedures.
joefromchicago wrote:I am by no means an expert on this area of constitutional law, but I think timber's take on this case is largely correct. As long as the UC regents provide an alternative means for students to get admitted (by taking a standardized test rather than by fulfilling a particular high school curriculum), then there's probably no first amendment "chilling effect" here.
Congratulations, timber! Did you read joe's post? One of the A2K legal experts agrees with your assessment.
rosborne979 wrote: I haven't even looked up the Truth in Science group yet, but I bet key members are also known for their 'strong religious beliefs'.
Quote:Truth in Science:
About Truth in Science
Truth in Science is a Limited Company, run by a Board of Directors who are advised by a Council of Reference and a Scientific Panel. These are listed below with brief descriptions. It should be noted that other organisations which individuals represent may not necessarily hold the same position as Truth in Science on some issues.
Board of Directors
Andy McIntosh
Professor of Thermodynamics and Combustion Theory at the University of Leeds and author of over 100 research papers. Prof. McIntosh's research includes biomimetics where natural mechanisms are studied with a view to using them for engineering applications.
He has written numerous articles concerning the debate over Origins.
Willis B. Metcalfe
(Acting Chairman)
A businessman with a long career in agriculture and publishing evangelical Christian literature in several languages.
John Perfect
A teacher with almost four decades of experience in the public and private sectors.
Maurice Roberts
Minister of the Inverness congregation of the Free Church of Scotland (continuing). Rev. Roberts is well known as a conference speaker in many countries around the world and was formerly a school classics teacher.
Council of Reference
Stuart Burgess
Professor of Design and Nature, and Head of Mechanical Engineering at Bristol University. Prof. Burgess' research includes analysis of insect flight mechanisms and the structural efficiency of trees.
He is winner of the Worshipful Company of Turners Gold Medal for the design of the solar array deployment system on the £1.4 billion ENVISAT earth observation satellite.
John Blanchard
Author of many popular books including Evolution: fact or fiction? Has Science Got Rid of God? and Does God Believe in Atheists?
Gerard A. Chrispin
A lawyer and qualified and experienced in management,
he has developed and directs Daylight Christian Prison Trust.
George Curry
Minister of Elswick Parish Church [St Stephen and St Paul], Newcastle upon Tyne. Mr Curry is the Chairman of Church Society and a governor of two schools, one primary, the other secondary.
David Harding
Pastor of Milnrow Evangelical Church, Lancashire.
Russell Healey
Formerly a Fellow of Selwyn College and Lecturer in the Engineering Department at Cambridge University, Dr Healey
now teaches mathematics at a leading independent school.
Derek Linkens
Professor and Dean Emeritus, Department of Automatic Control and Systems Engineering, University of Sheffield. Elected a Fellow of the Royal Academy of Engineering for his research on biological systems modelling and control ...
Obviously without checking facts, spendi in ignorance typical of his wont, wrote:You have got it wrong again boys.
What it is is that certain people have been watching your cases with some envy at how easy it is to get your name in the paper and possibly even be actually on TV ...
Regardless whether any of them want to get themselves on TV, the overwhelming majority of characters listed as key figures of the
Truth in Science organization certainly, as declared proudly right on the website, indeed are known for their 'strong religious beliefs' - not just "strong religious beliefs", but strong Evangelical Christian beliefs. Doing a bit more web-chasing, one discovers the lot are more given to proselytizing and publishing tracts than to fellowship with and recognition among the mainstream scientific/academic communities and the publishing of peer-reviewed, oft-cited treatises and articles.
timber wrote-
Quote: Doing a bit more web-chasing, one discovers the lot are more given to proselytizing and publishing tracts than to fellowship with and recognition among the mainstream scientific/academic communities and the publishing of peer-reviewed, oft-cited treatises and articles.
Isn't that a windy euphemism for what I said cleanly? Isn't what they should be doing much harder work than what they are doing?
timberlandko wrote:Regardless whether any of them want to get themselves on TV, the overwhelming majority of characters listed as key figures of the Truth in Science organization certainly, as declared proudly right on the website, indeed are known for their 'strong religious beliefs' - not just "strong religious beliefs", but strong Evangelical Christian beliefs. Doing a bit more web-chasing, one discovers the lot are more given to proselytizing and publishing tracts than to fellowship with and recognition among the mainstream scientific/academic communities and the publishing of peer-reviewed, oft-cited treatises and articles.
It's pretty obvious from reading the Truth in Science web site, that they are a shill for the ICR.
Once again we see that the drive to put ID into science classes is resulting from a religious agenda, not an 'equality of options' agenda, as portrayed.
"Truth in Science" is like "Answers in Genesis", Promise them anything but deliver nothing.
Yeah.
They are about taking words over and using them for various purposes for which they were never intended. A type of theft really.
It happens all the time.
Our Conservative Party is now embracing policies which conservatives find repellant. It goes without saying that the Labour Party doesn't represent workers anymore.
It's the way of the world.
