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Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

 
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Wed 24 May, 2006 01:12 pm
spendius wrote:
Aw gee ros. And I was hoping my little post would inspire someone to get out the statistics on typical religious and irreligious communities in the US as they relate to the few pathological problems I mentioned.


I didn't want to waste my time on such an obvious troll. Your comments were to outlandish to warrant anything other than an entertaining sideswipe.
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spendius
 
  1  
Wed 24 May, 2006 01:26 pm
c.i. wrote-

Quote:
When you speak of "religious people," exactly who are these people?


I thought a rough guide might be Republican/Democrat states. That's why I took the trouble to stress the phrase "all other things being equal".

I was seeking guidance to see if "my impression" (a phrase you also seem to have missed) was correct or not from experts on the Ask an Expert channel.

I'm sorry if I touched on a raw nerve.

I would have thought American sociologists would have studied such an important subject unless they were asked not to. After all Durkheim, one of the High Priests of sociology, studied suicide in relation to other factors.
And many studies have been done here of a similar nature concerning all the things I mentioned and a good few others.

Quote:
You probably missed the history of the Crusades and the Inquisition. The religious based conflict in Ireland, and presently in Iraq.


Have you been reading the Dr Goebell's or the George Orwell tome on propagandising again c.i.? "Probably"-Arse off.

There's intelligent people read this thread you know. Those four things you mention there that I'm supposed to have "probably" missed are just four labels to you. Nice easy to do labels which you just wave your arm over and that's the history of Iraq done. Gee!
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spendius
 
  1  
Wed 24 May, 2006 01:31 pm
ros wrote-

Quote:
I didn't want to waste my time on such an obvious troll. Your comments were to outlandish to warrant anything other than an entertaining sideswipe.


You mean you have no idea. Is that what that means? That's what it looks like it means. Standard practice in all good American labs eh?

I think my comments were perfectly respectable and not in the least outlandish despite your assertion to the contrary. What led you to think they were outlandish. Are you sure you don't mean uncomfortable?
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rosborne979
 
  1  
Wed 24 May, 2006 01:35 pm
spendius wrote:
You mean you have no idea. Is that what that means? That's what it looks like it means. Standard practice in all good American labs eh?

I think my comments were perfectly respectable and not in the least outlandish despite your assertion to the contrary. What led you to think they were outlandish. Are you sure you don't mean uncomfortable?


Enjoy your beer spendi.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Wed 24 May, 2006 01:36 pm
spendi, You will never touch a "nerve" from what your posts on a2k.
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Wed 24 May, 2006 02:00 pm
.......and in addition to what rosborne and c.i. told you, spendi:

Durkheim was a French sociologist. His study linked the increase in suicide to industrialization and the breakdown of the "guild" system rather than to any decline in religion.
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spendius
 
  1  
Wed 24 May, 2006 02:17 pm
c.i. wrote-

Quote:
spendi, You will never touch a "nerve" from what your posts on a2k.


Well you all seem to have reacted without saying anything about the post being referred to as if the last thing you would ever do is to do any such thing.

Wande-

All I said was that Durkheim studied suicide in relation to other factors in the social scene and that many others have done that with all the things I mentioned and many others I didn't.What's that got to do with guilds and industrialisation necessarily.

Google have found a small town down south here which is the most narcissistic in the country.

Are there any studies?

At least I understood ros's reply.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Wed 24 May, 2006 02:21 pm
You want statistics, eh, spendi? OK - here ya go; enjoy.

Quote:
Societies worse off 'when they have God on their side'
By Ruth Gledhill, Religion Correspondent



RELIGIOUS belief can cause damage to a society, contributing towards high murder rates, abortion, sexual promiscuity and suicide, according to research published today.



According to the study, belief in and worship of God are not only unnecessary for a healthy society but may actually contribute to social problems.

The study counters the view of believers that religion is necessary to provide the moral and ethical foundations of a healthy society.

It compares the social peformance of relatively secular countries, such as Britain, with the US, where the majority believes in a creator rather than the theory of evolution. Many conservative evangelicals in the US consider Darwinism to be a social evil, believing that it inspires atheism and amorality.

Many liberal Christians and believers of other faiths hold that religious belief is socially beneficial, believing that it helps to lower rates of violent crime, murder, suicide, sexual promiscuity and abortion. The benefits of religious belief to a society have been described as its "spiritual capital". But the study claims that the devotion of many in the US may actually contribute to its ills.

The paper, published in the Journal of Religion and Society, a US academic journal, reports: "Many Americans agree that their churchgoing nation is an exceptional, God-blessed, shining city on the hill that stands as an impressive example for an increasingly sceptical world.

"In general, higher rates of belief in and worship of a creator correlate with higher rates of homicide, juvenile and early adult mortality, STD infection rates, teen pregnancy and abortion in the prosperous democracies.

"The United States is almost always the most dysfunctional of the developing democracies, sometimes spectacularly so."


Gregory Paul, the author of the study and a social scientist, used data from the International Social Survey Programme, Gallup and other research bodies to reach his conclusions.

He compared social indicators such as murder rates, abortion, suicide and teenage pregnancy.

The study concluded that the US was the world's only prosperous democracy where murder rates were still high, and that the least devout nations were the least dysfunctional. Mr Paul said that rates of gonorrhoea in adolescents in the US were up to 300 times higher than in less devout democratic countries. The US also suffered from " uniquely high" adolescent and adult syphilis infection rates, and adolescent abortion rates, the study suggested.

Mr Paul said: "The study shows that England, despite the social ills it has, is actually performing a good deal better than the USA in most indicators, even though it is now a much less religious nation than America."

He said that the disparity was even greater when the US was compared with other countries, including France, Japan and the Scandinavian countries. These nations had been the most successful in reducing murder rates, early mortality, sexually transmitted diseases and abortion, he added.

Mr Paul delayed releasing the study until now because of Hurricane Katrina. He said that the evidence accumulated by a number of different studies suggested that religion might actually contribute to social ills. "I suspect that Europeans are increasingly repelled by the poor societal performance of the Christian states," he added.

He said that most Western nations would become more religious only if the theory of evolution could be overturned and the existence of God scientifically proven. Likewise, the theory of evolution would not enjoy majority support in the US unless there was a marked decline in religious belief, Mr Paul said.

"The non-religious, proevolution democracies contradict the dictum that a society cannot enjoy good conditions unless most citizens ardently believe in a moral creator.

"The widely held fear that a Godless citizenry must experience societal disaster is therefore refuted."


Quote:
The Barna Group: Born Again Christians Just As Likely to Divorce As Are Non-Christians

September 8, 2004

(Ventura, CA) - Recent legislation, lawsuits and public demonstrations over the legality of gay marriage are just one battlefront regarding the institution of marriage. A new study released by The Barna Group, of Ventura, California, shows that the likelihood of married adults getting divorced is identical among born again Christians and those who are not born again ...


http://www.adherents.com/largecom/images/denom_divorce.jpg

Quote:
The Barna Research Group's national study showed that members of nondenominational churches divorce 34 percent of the time in contrast to 25 percent for the general population. Nondenominational churches would include large numbers of Bible churches and other conservative evangelicals. Baptists had the highest rate of the major denominations: 29 percent. Born-again Christians' rate was 27 percent. To make matters even more distressing for believers, atheists/agnostics had the lowest rate of divorce, 21 percent.

Source
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spendius
 
  1  
Wed 24 May, 2006 02:31 pm
Did you know that in a country where television is funded by advertising people don't watch television. They are led to a position in front of a screen by their psychological weaknesses in order to be shown adverts. It's great really.It produces a dynamic economy.

With a remote control in your hand you never need to see anything you don't already like and they know what you like from surveys and trial and error. Like they train sniffer dogs. Only sniffer dogs wouldn't watch adverts even if Pavlov had hold of them for 200 years.

The main thing is watching the adverts. The medium is the message. They advertise TV the most actually. Only not usually too overtly.

They say the kids are packing up here on TV.
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Chumly
 
  1  
Wed 24 May, 2006 02:38 pm
Very interesting post timberlandko!

What does TV have to do with it spendi?
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Wed 24 May, 2006 02:43 pm
Chumly, People like spendi like to divert the topic when they been proven wrong so many times about their own beliefs. Expect to see more of the same. Wink
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Setanta
 
  1  
Wed 24 May, 2006 02:43 pm
Whenever Spenid gets sideswiped by reality (which is pretty much every time he posts), he dribbles off into another one of his hallucinations, sharply watching the clock so as not to miss his pub time . . .
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Wed 24 May, 2006 02:44 pm
Another thought comes to mind; I wonder if spendi and his pub friends know what they are talking about - on almost any topic? LOL
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Wed 24 May, 2006 02:46 pm
Chumly wrote:
What does TV have to do with it spendi?


Apparently spendi tried to read another book! (McLuhan's "The Medium is the Massage")
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rosborne979
 
  1  
Wed 24 May, 2006 03:00 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
Another thought comes to mind; I wonder if spendi and his pub friends know what they are talking about - on almost any topic? LOL


I try *not* to know what I'm talking about in a pub. Knowing too much takes the fun out of the pub. But at other times, I at least try to be semi-rational (even on A2K) Smile
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spendius
 
  1  
Wed 24 May, 2006 03:34 pm
Thanks timber.

That is quite interesting.

It has problems of course which I have no doubt you are aware of.

It really would take too long to do it justice and I'm not just saying that.

It raises almost every issue relating to statistics and definitions. A book legth study would be insufficient.

Can we get it a bit simpler and more scientific and deal with one thing at once.

Could you find the figures for any of the social pathologies mentioned per thousand of the population in a recent year and could you get, say,the figures,again per thousand of the population, for attendance at a public religious service at least once a week.Using States as a unit.

You have to realise that if the figures and comments quoted are true you have an administration which,whether knowingly or not, is acting to increase these sad figures.

I think Ms Gledhill has not allowed for the idea of "all other things being equal".There are a large number of other factors which may well come into play when comparing the US with European countries.
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spendius
 
  1  
Wed 24 May, 2006 03:39 pm
[/quote]Chumly wrote:
What does TV have to do with it spendi? [/quote]

It was just an idea I had.

I was wondering whether there are any statistical figures relating to which News broadcasts are watched by Republicans and Democrats.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Wed 24 May, 2006 03:42 pm
Quote:
New England Journal of Medicine:
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Chumly
 
  1  
Wed 24 May, 2006 03:58 pm
spendius wrote:
Chumly wrote:
What does TV have to do with it spendi?
It was just an idea I had.

I was wondering whether there are any statistical figures relating to which News broadcasts are watched by Republicans and Democrats.
No idea about Republicans and Democrats, but I'll bet you "Star Trek" watchers appreciate evolution more than those that watch reruns of "I Love Lucy" if that is any more germane to the topic at hand (which is questionable).
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spendius
 
  1  
Wed 24 May, 2006 05:24 pm
Chum wrote-

Quote:
No idea about Republicans and Democrats, but I'll bet you "Star Trek" watchers appreciate evolution more than those that watch reruns of "I Love Lucy" if that is any more germane to the topic at hand (which is questionable).


Oh-it is germane alright although explaining why is not something I fancy taking on at this moment in time.

I did enjoy the idea that those who had won the debate were those who declared that they had done so. They should use that method at the Olympic Games and then they could register the loudest noise ever recorded on a decibel counter.

timber-

I will study your last contibution tomorrow when I have more time.

Limericks and Acronyms call like sirens from the shore and I'm not tied to the mast.
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