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Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

 
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Sat 22 Apr, 2006 02:43 pm
Quote:
Evolution's case evolves
(By Ann Gibbons, Los Angeles Times, April 22, 2006)

IT'S BEEN A TOUGH month for creationists. On April 6, evolutionary biologists announced the discovery of a fossil of Tiktaalik roseae, a giant fish whose fins were evolving into limbs when it died 375 million years ago. This scaly creature of the sea was in transition to becoming a land animal, the discoverers wrote in Nature.

A day later, molecular biologists reported in Science that they had traced the origin of a key stress hormone, found in humans and all vertebrates, back 450 million years to a primitive gene that arose before animals emerged from oceans onto land.

Both teams of scientists stressed that their findings contradicted creationists ?- and demonstrated how small, incremental steps over millions of years could indeed produce complex life, ranging from the intricate mechanisms of a hormone molecule to the assembly of limbs from fins.

But even as they were touting their results as yet another validation of Charles Darwin's theory of evolution, biochemist Michael Behe, a leading advocate of "intelligent design," dismissed the hormone discovery as "piddling."

As if in response to Behe's challenge, paleoanthropologists raised the stakes last week with yet another example of evolution unfolding in our own lineage. In the journal Nature, a team of researchers from UC Berkeley and Ethiopia found an "intermediate" member of the human family that they say unambiguously fills the gap in the fossil record between two early types of human ancestors. Australopithecus anamensis was a creature the size of an orangutan that walked upright in the Rift Valley of eastern Africa about 4 million years ago, more than 2 million years after the human lineage split from the ancestor we share with chimpanzees

The team found the species in a mile-deep stack of sediment in northeastern Ethiopia, which has become the Comstock Lode of human evolution. Across 11 separate layers, researchers unearthed several types of early human ancestors, with the anamensis bones sandwiched between layers containing two other species ?- Australopithecus afarensis, the species whose most famous member was the diminutive skeleton Lucy that lived 3.2 million years ago; and the 4.4-million-year-old Ardipithecus ramidus. (They also found the oldest known member of our species, Homo sapiens, in a layer dating back 155,000 years.) When researchers compared the teeth and bones of these various human ancestors, they saw a clear path from primitive to modern.

But lest you assume that the transition inevitably yields "intelligent" design, just think about the more problematic aspects of our own anatomy: How about arthritic backs and knees? Or the size of the birth canal in modern humans. Lucy's species had an easier time 3.2 million years ago delivering babies who would grow up to have brains the size of a large orange, compared with modern mothers whose infants grow brains four times larger. We did evolve wider pelvises, but these also mean that more force is put on the sides of our knees, which any soccer player can tell you is not optimal design.

The point is that all these changes evolved over time in response to specific environments. The competing demands of an expanding brain and upright walking, for example, had to be balanced and accommodated in a basic body plan that persisted for millions of years in apes that spent most of their time hanging out in trees.

From what they have seen so far, the discoverers of these fossils think that the evolution from Ardipithecus to A. anamensis was a rapid affair. It took only 200,000 years, if they are right, for natural selection to refit one early hominid body into a new model. In the realm of deep time, that may seem like a blink of the eye. But in human terms, that would allow for at least 13,000 generations ?- enough time for genetic mutations to change the shape and size of teeth, and for individuals to learn how to use them. More of their offspring would survive as a result, and the trait would become fixed in later populations.

Although there are still gaps in the fossil record, many dots have already been connected on the branches of the human family tree, connecting Lucy to our own genus Homo, to our Neanderthal cousins and maybe even to a dwarf-like species that lived on an Indonesian island just 18,000 years ago. Together these species of human ancestors reveal different ways to become a human. You can see evolution's work in the fins of the ancient Tiktaalik or the stress hormones of the venerable lamprey fish. You can also look in the mirror.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Sat 22 Apr, 2006 03:13 pm
wande wrote-

Quote:
Spendius is echoing William Jennings Bryan.


Which of us had the best style wande?
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Sat 22 Apr, 2006 03:21 pm
Cue for a song-

Oim walkin' backwards for Christmas.
Across the Rift Valleee
Oim walkin' backwards for Christmas
It's the only thing for me,
Oim walkin' to the sideways
Oim walkin' to the front
Everybody looks at me
Ans says Oim a silly custard.

By The Goons.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Sat 22 Apr, 2006 03:24 pm
wande quoted-

Quote:
a mile-deep stack of sediment in northeastern Ethiopia,


How far is that from the nose-cone of a Saturn B on the launch pad at the Cape?
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Sat 22 Apr, 2006 03:49 pm
wandel. Im glad that this article had its reference checking correct and noted that the NAture article on Tiktallik did not state that Tiktaliik "walked on Land". There had been some confusion about how far the scientists who worked in Ellsmere, would take their limb homology.

Spendius, a Turritella is a Miocene to Recent mollusc that has a complex coiled test. The pasta , turritelli, is named for this mollusc.
My "adventures in spelling" take me to places that ordinary confines of rules of common orthography, you have to be able to just keep ahead of me and form the words in your mind.

As for your blathering about "who understands what and more", I care not a firkin of warm spit .
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Sat 22 Apr, 2006 05:23 pm
fm-

I once took a test which might fit the idea of a "complex coil".More than once actually Father I told my confessor. He pretended to disapprove but I could feel the envy through the grill. If you would like to aggravate priests you should go to confession and tell them lurid stories.

If you wish to bring spit into it I'm glad it's warm.I really hate cold spit. It's so passe don't you think?
0 Replies
 
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Sat 22 Apr, 2006 05:54 pm
No, going to confession and telling the priests lurid stories will only encourage them.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Sat 22 Apr, 2006 06:15 pm
Spendi--Now why would you goad a priest? In my formative years I just gradually stayed away from all the Churches arcane ritual, having been totally disillusioned when I learned the history of the origins of the Catholic Churches rituals and " policies and procedures".

As far as MacKay , Ill stop after this, since you feel Im in a rant ( I dont , but Im always sensitive that readers of posts are always better at percieving us than we ourselves are).
J macKay has earned a Phd and has summarily (being without any evidence)turned and denied much of the basis of even receiving the degree. SO, his credentialed opinions ( as a geologist) are based heavily on his degree conferring a certain "punching of the official ticket of credibility". Hes earned a degree, makes most of his reputation as a holder of said advanced degree in a relevant science, and then he denies the veracity of the basic science underlying his dgrees. However, hes never ever published his concerns or proofs of doubt. NOW HES a friggin hypocrite, and his opinions arent really worth the firkin of spit (not the least of the reason is that he selectively avoids any real evidentiary confrontations).
Hes one of a relatively small number of people whove earned degrees in science (just for the bragging rights) and then turn their lifes work loose to bamboozle the minds of kids and the untrained religious , entirely based upon holding the degree. In reality they are hucksters who took a diversion for a time and acquired a degree under false pretenses. The Creationist web sites stae that Duane Gish (or John Mackay or Steven Austen or even russ Humphreys) are respected scientists with advanced degrees in their fields. NO THEY ARE NOT. Theyve spent the time knuckling under to pass all the requirements to acquire a degree, then they jettison most of their sciences underpinnings and turn into shiny suited Bible hucksters..
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Sun 23 Apr, 2006 07:56 am
Heretics you mean?

From both our points of view.

But hey-it's competitive and they are only as good as society says. They would pack it in if it wasn't paying. I have nothing against huckstering in principle. I think most of us are engaged in a type of huckstering-it's just that we have a gentleman's agreement not to call it by that name.

They are a part of life's rich tapestry and if what they do is not illegal I don't see how a scientific mind can criticise them. Some pure scientists wouldn't criticise a lot of illegal stuff. But I think your analysis of McKay a trifle superficial.

The Church rituals are quite significant actually. Ritual is a component of human social behaviour everywhere. It unifies for one thing. It humbles. It's calming and hints things are under control like the brass band on the White House lawn. That's a ritual. Seeing a virgin married with full ritual says something important about her. It values her. It giver sexual union a sacramental tone. It's the same with funerals and baptisms and community hymn singing and contracts to supply the local plant with stationary or meat pies and vending machines. With no religion contracts would be awarded fairly by a bunch of highly paid bureaucrats sitting around in plush offices for months on end miles away from the action. Which could be classed as huckstering I think.

Some get bored with that and activate their contacts to get a grant to study mile deep sedimentary rocks in eastern Ethiopia with a small staff of willing and dedicated female helpers. Darwin only got his contract because others dropped out. The Rev Jenyns turned it down and then Henslow because his wife looked miserable and then FitzRoy had his own mate lined up and it was only when he backed out at the last minute that the "rump" candidate Darwin was offered the place.

Not that I'm claiming that evolution theory wouldn't have appeared later anyway but it makes one think about chance. Suppose Henslow's wife had had a dragoon officer lover and not looked miserable.Henslow goes instead of Darwin and Origin doesn't get written. That's almost akin to a random mutation.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Sun 23 Apr, 2006 07:57 am
Heretics you mean?

From both our points of view.

But hey-it's competitive and they are only as good as society says. They would pack it in if it wasn't paying. I have nothing against huckstering in principle. I think most of us are engaged in a type of huckstering-it's just that we have a gentleman's agreement not to call it by that name.

They are a part of life's rich tapestry and if what they do is not illegal I don't see how a scientific mind can criticise them. Some pure scientists wouldn't criticise a lot of illegal stuff. But I think your analysis of McKay a trifle superficial.

The Church rituals are quite significant actually. Ritual is a component of human social behaviour everywhere. It unifies for one thing. It humbles. It's calming and hints things are under control like the brass band on the White House lawn. That's a ritual. Seeing a virgin married with full ritual says something important about her. It values her. It giver sexual union a sacramental tone. It's the same with funerals and baptisms and community hymn singing and contracts to supply the local plant with stationary or meat pies and vending machines. With no religion contracts would be awarded fairly by a bunch of highly paid bureaucrats sitting around in plush offices for months on end miles away from the action. Which could be classed as huckstering I think.

Some get bored with that and activate their contacts to get a grant to study mile deep sedimentary rocks in eastern Ethiopia with a small staff of willing and dedicated female helpers. Darwin only got his contract because others dropped out. The Rev Jenyns turned it down and then Henslow because his wife looked miserable and then FitzRoy had his own mate lined up and it was only when he backed out at the last minute that the "rump" candidate Darwin was offered the place.

Not that I'm claiming that evolution theory wouldn't have appeared later anyway but it makes one think about chance. Suppose Henslow's wife had had a dragoon officer lover and not looked miserable.Henslow goes instead of Darwin and Origin doesn't get written. That's almost akin to a random mutation.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Sun 23 Apr, 2006 07:58 am
Heretics you mean?

From both our points of view.

But hey-it's competitive and they are only as good as society says. They would pack it in if it wasn't paying. I have nothing against huckstering in principle. I think most of us are engaged in a type of huckstering-it's just that we have a gentleman's agreement not to call it by that name.

They are a part of life's rich tapestry and if what they do is not illegal I don't see how a scientific mind can criticise them. Some pure scientists wouldn't criticise a lot of illegal stuff. But I think your analysis of McKay a trifle superficial.

The Church rituals are quite significant actually. Ritual is a component of human social behaviour everywhere. It unifies for one thing. It humbles. It's calming and hints things are under control like the brass band on the White House lawn. That's a ritual. Seeing a virgin married with full ritual says something important about her. It values her. It giver sexual union a sacramental tone. It's the same with funerals and baptisms and community hymn singing and contracts to supply the local plant with stationary or meat pies and vending machines. With no religion contracts would be awarded fairly by a bunch of highly paid bureaucrats sitting around in plush offices for months on end miles away from the action. Which could be classed as huckstering I think.

Some get bored with that and activate their contacts to get a grant to study mile deep sedimentary rocks in eastern Ethiopia with a small staff of willing and dedicated female helpers. Darwin only got his contract because others dropped out. The Rev Jenyns turned it down and then Henslow because his wife looked miserable and then FitzRoy had his own mate lined up and it was only when he backed out at the last minute that the "rump" candidate Darwin was offered the place.

Not that I'm claiming that evolution theory wouldn't have appeared later anyway but it makes one think about chance. Suppose Henslow's wife had had a dragoon officer lover and not looked miserable.Henslow goes instead of Darwin and Origin doesn't get written. That's almost akin to a random mutation.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Sun 23 Apr, 2006 07:58 am
Heretics you mean?

From both our points of view.

But hey-it's competitive and they are only as good as society says. They would pack it in if it wasn't paying. I have nothing against huckstering in principle. I think most of us are engaged in a type of huckstering-it's just that we have a gentleman's agreement not to call it by that name.

They are a part of life's rich tapestry and if what they do is not illegal I don't see how a scientific mind can criticise them. Some pure scientists wouldn't criticise a lot of illegal stuff. But I think your analysis of McKay a trifle superficial.

The Church rituals are quite significant actually. Ritual is a component of human social behaviour everywhere. It unifies for one thing. It humbles. It's calming and hints things are under control like the brass band on the White House lawn. That's a ritual. Seeing a virgin married with full ritual says something important about her. It values her. It giver sexual union a sacramental tone. It's the same with funerals and baptisms and community hymn singing and contracts to supply the local plant with stationary or meat pies and vending machines. With no religion contracts would be awarded fairly by a bunch of highly paid bureaucrats sitting around in plush offices for months on end miles away from the action. Which could be classed as huckstering I think.

Some get bored with that and activate their contacts to get a grant to study mile deep sedimentary rocks in eastern Ethiopia with a small staff of willing and dedicated female helpers. Darwin only got his contract because others dropped out. The Rev Jenyns turned it down and then Henslow because his wife looked miserable and then FitzRoy had his own mate lined up and it was only when he backed out at the last minute that the "rump" candidate Darwin was offered the place.

Not that I'm claiming that evolution theory wouldn't have appeared later anyway but it makes one think about chance. Suppose Henslow's wife had had a dragoon officer lover and not looked miserable.Henslow goes instead of Darwin and Origin doesn't get written. That's almost akin to a random mutation.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Sun 23 Apr, 2006 08:02 am
I'm sorry about that.I was told the post hadn't gone.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Sun 23 Apr, 2006 09:49 am
My analysis of Mackay is correct. He doesnt want the question asked of his "credentials" cuz hes hardly ever used them in any meanigful manner.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sun 23 Apr, 2006 10:09 am
spendi, The bug on a2k has many of us making multiple posts. I've tried to delete as many as possible, but it must be done before anybody makes another post on the thread. When you get the debug post, it doesn't mean what it says; it still posted.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Sun 23 Apr, 2006 10:31 am
A Summary of the Concepts in Darwin's "Origin of the Species" (Source: National Geographic Magazine, November 2004)

Quote:
The gist of the concept is that small, random, heritable differences among individuals result in survival and reproduction?-success for some, death without offspring for others?-and that this natural culling leads to significant changes in shape, size, strength, armament, color, biochemistry, and behavior among the descendants. Excess population growth drives the competitive struggle. Because less successful competitors produce fewer surviving offspring, the useless or negative variations tend to disappear, whereas the useful variations tend to be perpetuated and gradually magnified throughout a population.

So much for one part of the evolutionary process, known as anagenesis, during which a single species is transformed. But there's also a second part, known as speciation. Genetic changes sometimes accumulate within an isolated segment of a species, but not throughout the whole, as that isolated population adapts to its local conditions. Gradually it goes its own way, seizing a new ecological niche. At a certain point it becomes irreversibly distinct?-that is, so different that its members can't interbreed with the rest. Two species now exist where formerly there was one. Darwin called that splitting-and-specializing phenomenon the "principle of divergence." It was an important part of his theory, explaining the overall diversity of life as well as the adaptation of individual species.

The evidence, as he presented it, mostly fell within four categories: biogeography, paleontology, embryology, and morphology. Biogeography is the study of the geographical distribution of living creatures?-that is, which species inhabit which parts of the planet and why. Paleontology investigates extinct life-forms, as revealed in the fossil record. Embryology examines the revealing stages of development (echoing earlier stages of evolutionary history) that embryos pass through before birth or hatching; at a stretch, embryology also concerns the immature forms of animals that metamorphose, such as the larvae of insects. Morphology is the science of anatomical shape and design. Darwin devoted sizable sections of The Origin of Species to these categories.

Biogeography, for instance, offered a great pageant of peculiar facts and patterns. Anyone who considers the biogeographical data, Darwin wrote, must be struck by the mysterious clustering pattern among what he called "closely allied" species?-that is, similar creatures sharing roughly the same body plan. Such closely allied species tend to be found on the same continent (several species of zebras in Africa) or within the same group of oceanic islands (dozens of species of honeycreepers in Hawaii, 13 species of Galápagos finch), despite their species-by-species preferences for different habitats, food sources, or conditions of climate. Adjacent areas of South America, Darwin noted, are occupied by two similar species of large, flightless birds (the rheas, Rhea americana and Pterocnemia pennata), not by ostriches as in Africa or emus as in Australia. South America also has agoutis and viscachas (small rodents) in terrestrial habitats, plus coypus and capybaras in the wetlands, not?-as Darwin wrote?-hares and rabbits in terrestrial habitats or beavers and muskrats in the wetlands. During his own youthful visit to the Galápagos, aboard the survey ship Beagle, Darwin himself had discovered three very similar forms of mockingbird, each on a different island.

Why should "closely allied" species inhabit neighboring patches of habitat? And why should similar habitat on different continents be occupied by species that aren't so closely allied? "We see in these facts some deep organic bond, prevailing throughout space and time," Darwin wrote. "This bond, on my theory, is simply inheritance." Similar species occur nearby in space because they have descended from common ancestors.

Paleontology reveals a similar clustering pattern in the dimension of time. The vertical column of geologic strata, laid down by sedimentary processes over the eons, lightly peppered with fossils, represents a tangible record showing which species lived when. Less ancient layers of rock lie atop more ancient ones (except where geologic forces have tipped or shuffled them), and likewise with the animal and plant fossils that the strata contain. What Darwin noticed about this record is that closely allied species tend to be found adjacent to one another in successive strata. One species endures for millions of years and then makes its last appearance in, say, the middle Eocene epoch; just above, a similar but not identical species replaces it. In North America, for example, a vaguely horselike creature known as Hyracotherium was succeeded by Orohippus, then Epihippus, then Mesohippus, which in turn were succeeded by a variety of horsey American critters. Some of them even galloped across the Bering land bridge into Asia, then onward to Europe and Africa. By five million years ago they had nearly all disappeared, leaving behind Dinohippus, which was succeeded by Equus, the modern genus of horse. Not all these fossil links had been unearthed in Darwin's day, but he captured the essence of the matter anyway. Again, were such sequences just coincidental? No, Darwin argued. Closely allied species succeed one another in time, as well as living nearby in space, because they're related through evolutionary descent.

Embryology too involved patterns that couldn't be explained by coincidence. Why does the embryo of a mammal pass through stages resembling stages of the embryo of a reptile? Why is one of the larval forms of a barnacle, before metamorphosis, so similar to the larval form of a shrimp? Why do the larvae of moths, flies, and beetles resemble one another more than any of them resemble their respective adults? Because, Darwin wrote, "the embryo is the animal in its less modified state" and that state "reveals the structure of its progenitor."

Morphology, his fourth category of evidence, was the "very soul" of natural history, according to Darwin. Even today it's on display in the layout and organization of any zoo. Here are the monkeys, there are the big cats, and in that building are the alligators and crocodiles. Birds in the aviary, fish in the aquarium. Living creatures can be easily sorted into a hierarchy of categories?-not just species but genera, families, orders, whole kingdoms?-based on which anatomical characters they share and which they don't.

All vertebrate animals have backbones. Among vertebrates, birds have feathers, whereas reptiles have scales. Mammals have fur and mammary glands, not feathers or scales. Among mammals, some have pouches in which they nurse their tiny young. Among these species, the marsupials, some have huge rear legs and strong tails by which they go hopping across miles of arid outback; we call them kangaroos. Bring in modern microscopic and molecular evidence, and you can trace the similarities still further back. All plants and fungi, as well as animals, have nuclei within their cells. All living organisms contain DNA and RNA (except some viruses with RNA only), two related forms of information-coding molecules.

Such a pattern of tiered resemblances?-groups of similar species nested within broader groupings, and all descending from a single source?-isn't naturally present among other collections of items. You won't find anything equivalent if you try to categorize rocks, or musical instruments, or jewelry. Why not? Because rock types and styles of jewelry don't reflect unbroken descent from common ancestors. Biological diversity does. The number of shared characteristics between any one species and another indicates how recently those two species have diverged from a shared lineage.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Sun 23 Apr, 2006 01:23 pm
wande quoted-

Quote:
The gist of the concept is that small, random, heritable differences among individuals result in survival and reproduction?-success for some, death without offspring for others?-and that this natural culling leads to significant changes in shape, size, strength, armament, color, biochemistry, and behavior among the descendants.


Yes-okay.But the random differences are only a success or failure in the particular environment they arrive in.These differences may well be in a statistically predictable ratio and the environment is the selecting agency not the random variations.
When a species can create its own environmental conditions as with humans,and especially in cities,a pronounced distortion takes place.

As an example one might consider differences in success in a monarchy or a dictatorship to that in the wild West in the 1840s,say or the selection in of the rare black moth mutation under industrial conditions. The successful male in the wild-West would probably be interned,or worse,in a dictatorship or monarchy.

Students are rightly taught that humans are animals and for real natural selection to function normally where they are concerned conditions would need to be similar to the wild.

Hence,and I realise I might be accused of sophistry here, students may well conclude that humans are not animals and only came into existence as humans a few thousand years ago,the coming to self-consciousness,and that all pre-existing life was thus formed with them and in the state it was.

Thus the Creation is a metaphor for the coming of self-consciousness to humans and it was to be expected that stories and myths or various types would be invented to explain it and also to be expected was that these would be erroneous and to do with psychological considerations. I think it is widely accepted that Greek thinking saw the whole previous past as encapsulated into a short period of which human memory could cover in art.

It is asking rather a lot of the human race that it dump the whole of this tradition overboard in one fell swoop and make way for the hegemony of the scientist who can provide no garuantee of the continuance of his novel ideas.
0 Replies
 
Chumly
 
  1  
Sun 23 Apr, 2006 01:27 pm
spendius wrote:
Yes-okay.But the random differences are only a success or failure in the particular environment they arrive in.
Nope, often the random differences are neither beneficial nor helpful under a given set of circumstances.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Sun 23 Apr, 2006 01:30 pm
Chum-

You are reading too fast mate.

I don't see your point.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sun 23 Apr, 2006 01:30 pm
Nobody is asking christians or religionists to dump the whole of "this" tradition overboard in one fell swoop. Most understand that old habits die hard; but it's incumbant upon people to realize the futility of pushing beliefs that has no evidence to support it. There are much resources out there to relearn about truth, logic, and ethics. One needs only put some effort into it with an open mind.
0 Replies
 
 

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