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Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

 
 
Wolf ODonnell
 
  1  
Sat 15 Apr, 2006 10:18 am
Yes, Spendi, but it can't go all the way if you insist on teaching children non-scientific gobbledy-gook in the form of Creationism or ID.
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spendius
 
  1  
Sat 15 Apr, 2006 12:21 pm
That's a belief Wolf and one I don't accept.It's a question of the time scale and thus the rate of change.The thesis/antithesis=new thesis is a gradual refining process not a sudden jump.The stresses and strains of sudden jumps are woeful.

Kant said something about ideas having to be generalised to have validity.So suppose we generalise the anti-ID (anti-religion) position.I mean everybody,due to the strength of the argument,converts to it overnight. You have to be up for that before you start preaching otherwise your a con man.If you're not up for it you must not think your argument good enough.

Who is ready for the no God position to be generalised like "Love thy neighbour" is generalised.Everybody an atheist.I suppose you can imagine it so long as you ignore the social consequences which is a bit irresponsible.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sat 15 Apr, 2006 02:57 pm
spendi, the biggest problem with your conclusion that without religion something bad will happen is the most ignorant thesis. you just need to look at history and current events to know that religion created more problems for humans than most everything else known to man.
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spendius
 
  1  
Sat 15 Apr, 2006 03:23 pm
That's a ridiculous thing to say because you don't know whether it was religion that created the problems to which you refer and you don't know whether religion rendered the problems more severe or less.You are not comparing a religious society with anything except maybe a small nomadic tribe.

It has just been on our main news that China is relaxing its official religious intolerance due presumably to the authorities' perception that it is in their interest to do so.Mumbo-jumbo maybe a competitive weapon.
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spendius
 
  1  
Sat 15 Apr, 2006 03:26 pm
Also c.i. I never said something bad will happen.I said something would happen.I wanted anti-IDers to speculate on that something and then threaders can decide for themselves whether it might be good or bad.
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USAFHokie80
 
  1  
Sat 15 Apr, 2006 06:58 pm
I have to agree with C.I. Granted, I'm no history buff, but from what I do know, it seems that religion was at the base of most of history's darkest hours. From the Crusades, to the Inquisition...the devastation of the native tribes here in the Americas... Hitler... and most "hate groups" today. Most of them are deeply "religious" people who think they're better than everyone else.
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Sun 16 Apr, 2006 06:18 am
Quote:
How school vouchers might help religion-science debate evolve
(David Skeel, Philadelphia Inquirer, April 16, 2006)

Scientists have just discovered yet another missing link: fish with necks, the football linemen of ancient seas. It is thought that Tiktaalik roseae may have been a transitional species between ocean-based and earth-walking animals.

But these versatile fish won't end the debate over science and religion in the schools, any more than federal court rejection of the Dover, Pa., school board's intelligent design policy did. There's a good reason for this: The debate over evolution's validity is only half of the battle, and it isn't the most important half.

Since a 1968 Supreme Court decision explicitly striking down an Arkansas statute that prohibited the teaching of evolution, it has become clear that kicking religion out of the schools is no more "neutral" than letting religion in. Banning references to God or the Bible simply enforces one well-defined world view (materialism) at the expense of another (theistic religion). Just as intelligent design theory - in the words of Judge John E. Jones 3d, who issued the Dover opinion - could not "uncouple itself from its creationist, and thus religious, antecedents," evolutionary theorists (especially popularizers such as Daniel Dennett and Richard Dawkins) often propound their own belief system, one that explicitly excludes God.

Perhaps the only way to resolve the impasse is to rethink the line between church and state. In his much-discussed book Divided by God, New York University law professor Noah Feldman argues that the Supreme Court should "offer greater latitude for public religious discourse and religious symbolism, and at the same time insist on a stricter ban on state funding of religious institutions."

Religious symbols and language such as the Ten Commandments are fine, in other words, but government funds should never make their way to a religious organization. When advocates of intelligent design "persuade a local school board to put it in the curriculum," Feldman has written, "the courts need not strike it down as an establishment of religion."

Feldman's proposal for symbols but no money is a fresh idea in the debate over church and state. But courts still would be forced to decide how much intelligent design was too much. A better solution would look to a strategy Feldman rejects: school vouchers, which the Supreme Court explicitly upheld in a Cleveland-area case several years ago.

Here's how vouchers could transform the religion-science debate. If the state or locality in question did not have a meaningful voucher program in place, the court would adopt a strict interpretation of the prohibition against establishment of religion. In the Pennsylvania case, this would have meant striking down the Dover intelligent design policy, as was done. In districts that did offer substantial vouchers for students who attended nonpublic schools, on the other hand, the court would presumptively uphold a school board's decision to teach only evolution or to include intelligent design or anything in between.

This proposal would give school boards flexibility in selecting their science curriculum, as long as there was a voucher program in place that gave students and their parents a realistic choice of schools. In effect, the proposal would ensure that the principal decisions were made by local officials. Rather than trying to decide how much intelligent design was too much, courts would need only to determine whether a given voucher program was substantial enough to assure students a meaningful choice.

This approach would shift the focus of the religion-science battle. Evangelicals or others who wished to alter the public school curriculum would need to start by lobbying for a school voucher program. Religion and science would not disappear from the debate, of course, but the principal question would be whether to adopt a particular voucher proposal. The new focus would prove far less divisive to local communities in the long run, and might even help improve the performance of our schools.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Sun 16 Apr, 2006 06:50 am
That would possibly make for some very hotly contested elections for school board members. I have a feeling that this could further demarcate the red/blue borders of states. There will always be some unintended consequences whenever conpromises are sought.
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rosborne979
 
  1  
Sun 16 Apr, 2006 07:30 am
wandeljw wrote:
the article wrote:
But these versatile fish won't end the debate over science and religion in the schools, any more than federal court rejection of the Dover, Pa., school board's intelligent design policy did. There's a good reason for this: The debate over evolution's validity is only half of the battle, and it isn't the most important half.


I agree that there's more going on underneath the sheets than just worry over evolution.

wandeljw wrote:
the article wrote:
Since a 1968 Supreme Court decision explicitly striking down an Arkansas statute that prohibited the teaching of evolution, it has become clear that kicking religion out of the schools is no more "neutral" than letting religion in. Banning references to God or the Bible simply enforces one well-defined world view (materialism) at the expense of another (theistic religion).


And I agree that the argument above is probably what is driving the engine of conflict.

Many people are uncomfortable with science because an assumption of naturalism is required for construction of scientific theories. And I suppose those people are uncomfortable with having their kids exposed to a methodology of thinking that relies on a non-theistic philosophy. And I suppose they feel it is unfair to have one philosophy used in school and another not.

However, there are thousands of religions, but only one science. Science is taught because it has functional value in the physical world. Society has chosen to teach science for the benefit of the kids and for our future civilization. Most importantly, science does not require that people (students or anyone else) believe in naturalism, only that they use it.

The government by prohibiting sanctioned (not personal) references to God in schools is maintaining a non-religions neutral ground. Students are still free to think what they want to think and do what they want to do.

wandeljw wrote:
the article wrote:
Just as intelligent design theory - in the words of Judge John E. Jones 3d, who issued the Dover opinion - could not "uncouple itself from its creationist, and thus religious, antecedents," evolutionary theorists (especially popularizers such as Daniel Dennett and Richard Dawkins) often propound their own belief system, one that explicitly excludes God.


Just because certain individuals (Dawkins and Dennett) choose to be anti-religious does not mean that science itself is anti-religious. This author has made the same mistake that most creationists make by seeing science as anti-religious. Science isn't anti-religious in any way, science and religion only cross paths in the minds of those who are unsure of their own philosophical footing.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Sun 16 Apr, 2006 09:25 am
In their ignorant, superstitious, arrogant misconceived, dead-end worldview, creationists and ID-iots perceive that science, in not endorsing the religionist proposition attacks the religionist proposition. They are incapable of understanding that science perforce and by definition is neutral in all matters pertaining to the supernatural just as it is neutral pertaining to all matters natural; science takes no position but concerns itself only with that for which there be evidence ... science merely reports what it has found and confirmed, and explores the unkown using what has been found and confirmed, ever ready to re-evaluate, adjust, discard, or further develop previous conclusions in light of new discoveries. Science is linearly open-ended, religion, and by extension creationism/ID-iocy, to the available evidence, can and do present only circular dead ends, the antithesis of science.




And on that note, may all find this traditional time of annual planting, rebirth, and fertillity festivities to be enjoyable and propitious.
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spendius
 
  1  
Sun 16 Apr, 2006 10:31 am
wande quoted in an excellent article-

Quote:
In the Pennsylvania case, this would have meant striking down the Dover intelligent design policy, as was done. In districts that did offer substantial vouchers for students who attended nonpublic schools, on the other hand, the court would presumptively uphold a school board's decision to teach only evolution or to include intelligent design or anything in between.


In the Dover case the election of the school board stands in place of the vouchers and,from Skeel's argument,is as valid for deciding what should be taught.The electorate have to take responsibility for their choice and get the chance to correct it in new elections if they feel they made a mistake.

It is a methodology problem.What seemed ridiculous to me was that a handful of people, whose motives are never absolutely clear,could,by an almost whimsical decision not shared by the thousands of other voters,hold up the Dover community for $5 million dollars with the encouragement and co-operation of others with a definite financial interest.

fm wrote-

Quote:
That would possibly make for some very hotly contested elections for school board members. I have a feeling that this could further demarcate the red/blue borders of states.


Hotly contested elections are good for democracy.
And timber's second point is one I have been labouring for some time.For urban secularists to force rural religionists to accept an educational process anathema to their deepest feelings has the potential to divide the nation and,in extreme cases,to split it.

And this is an important statement-

Quote:
Since a 1968 Supreme Court decision explicitly striking down an Arkansas statute that prohibited the teaching of evolution, it has become clear that kicking religion out of the schools is no more "neutral" than letting religion in.


For too long the anti-IDers have postured as "neutral" by simply refusing to engage with the social functions of the two choices.Science is not "neutral" as even a cursory reading of the philosophy of science will show to anyone with a sufficient interest and failing that sufficient interest only-

Quote:
ignorant, superstitious, arrogant misconceived, dead-end worldview,


can be offered against those who have a sufficient interest which I would expect ID theologians,if not their followers,to have.

Scientific thinking is not neutral because its effects cannot be separated from the social system as,of course,the effects of religion can't either.

Are we ready to get down to brass tacks and debate social effects?
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Sun 16 Apr, 2006 11:12 am
spendius wrote:
Quote:
For urban secularists to force rural religionists to accept an educational process anathema to their deepest feelings has the potential to divide the nation and,in extreme cases,to split it.


Interesting, spendius. Is this the root of your disagreement with other posters on this thread?
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Sun 16 Apr, 2006 11:39 am
spendi, here are the brass tacks; demonstrate objectively and in forensically valid manner that religion constitute other than an ignorant, superstitious, arrogant misconceived, dead-end worldview - or simply demonstrate objectively and in forensically valid manner that religious faith be differentiable from superstition.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sun 16 Apr, 2006 11:43 am
timber, You ain~´t gonna get an answer to you q~s.
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spendius
 
  1  
Sun 16 Apr, 2006 12:22 pm
Yes.

There are others though.Quite a number actually and all difficult to explain.

Science seeks to account for things from no particular point of view and from no specific type of observer.Such a situtation is not a possibilty.A feminist may take another view.Some do.Sandra Harding and Nancy Hardstock for example.A politician in power will have a different view to a wannabe without power.

Art works with visions realised in concrete symbols and is adapted to human sense perceptions and emotions which are linked,especially in Marxist thought,with selfishness and economic determinants.

Art is judged by success over time on these factors which is why anything new in the art world is so difficult to evaluate.

Religion,like science,accounts for the world impersonally and art suffers if either is triumphant but religion is more art friendly than science and it sees the world as having purpose.As I've already said,religion is an antidote to pointlessness and the accompanying mental states.

It is precisely because religion posits a transcendent being with purpose that it is unassailable to refutation by empirical evidence and can thus distinguish between good and evil which pure science can never do. And a society,a science only society,cannot function without an ability to distinguish good and evil and can only exist with the will of the strong as the arbiter backed up by whatever force proves necessary to the strong.Such a society's prospects are limited due to the strong elite being a small minority and easily overthrown when the majority are angry enough which they invariably become over time due to the inability of the elite to control itself and particularly its female component.

Obviously religion is deprived of empirical evidence and it is bootless to continually point that out.To do so makes the assumption of a not very bright audience.The mantra -"Show me the evidence of God" is infantile.

Religion is based on the experience of meaning and value (the social function) and it is the task of art to explore these avenues.That various religious systems seek to project self interested wishes onto a world which they claim to see as being above those wishes is,or may be seen as,a human failing.

Like art though religious systems may be judged on their success over time and it has to be admitted that on the basis of natural selection Christianity has,so far,proved its validity. To attack it as mumbo-jumbo is identical to attacking a Rubens or a Rembrandt as paint daubs on a canvas,which is what they are empirically,
or a Mozart violin sonata as taut string scraping.Both of which are sometimes done by those who enjoy outraging received opinion.And one could easily apply such a technique to love.
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spendius
 
  1  
Sun 16 Apr, 2006 12:41 pm
timber-

I have previously distinguished between superstition and religion for you.If you persist in thinking them the same how is it possible for anyone to separate them for you.It is just an idea you have got into your head and there is no shifting it it seems.Using your simplifications I would be unable to distinguish for you the difference between a knife and a circular saw blade because they both cut things.You are taking one characteristic which is common to both religion and superstition and concluding they are the same without allowing for other characteristics which show their difference. But if you need to cling to the idea that they are the same out of habit or some other self-serving reason then you will have repressed my previous explanation and there is nothing I can do about that.

I'll admit that in practice a fair amount of religious activity if scrutinised carefully could well be classed as superstition but that is not in the realm of an intellectual discussion about the two ideas.

c.i. having blurted his hostage to fortune in good old-fashioned heckling style is now forced to assert that I have not answered your question but I don't suppose he read the post I refer to either and can thus be fairly charged with just using this thread as a megaphone when he feels like it and hasn't sufficient interest to keep up with it.
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Sun 16 Apr, 2006 12:51 pm
"As I've already said,religion is an antidote to pointlessness and the accompanying mental states. "

Freeing your mind from the shackles of dogma is true liberation. And life is not pointless. The purpose of life is life itself.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Sun 16 Apr, 2006 01:03 pm
spendi, I submit you have not objectively and in forensically valid manner differentiated religious faith from superstition but merely have offered purely emotional, sophistic rationalization and equivocation - asserting, yet in no way demonstrating, let alone validating - that there be any root difference between the two. It is not that I "persist in thinking them the same", nor have I any idea "fixed" in my head, it is that you have provided no forensically valid, academecically sound, logically consistent, intellectually honest support for your proposition.
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rosborne979
 
  1  
Sun 16 Apr, 2006 01:54 pm
Quote:
Since a 1968 Supreme Court decision explicitly striking down an Arkansas statute that prohibited the teaching of evolution, it has become clear that kicking religion out of the schools is no more "neutral" than letting religion in.


The author is free to state his opinion on this, but saying it doesn't make it right.

Please see my previous post for an explanation of why this author's opinion is incorrect.
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spendius
 
  1  
Sun 16 Apr, 2006 02:07 pm
Religion and superstition are the same in the sense that infra-red radiation is the same as ultra violet radiation.

Superstition is an attempt to utilise supernatural powers for private purposes.Religion is an attempt,seen superficially,to utilise these powers for public purposes.In black magic the powers are utilised for ends the group would not approve of and thus the rituals involved are practiced in secret and are thus narcissistic.Sticking pins in an effigy or even wishing ill on people.In white magic the powers are conjured for private ends which the group would approve of such as praying for someone's health or,I suppose,dispensing a placebo for a hysterical patient.

The difference between these magics,superstitions,and religion concerns the ends pursued,the attitudes surrounding them,the type of supernatural power appealed to and the types of behaviour exhibited in the practices.

Superstition has a definite and limited aim.Religion is not used as a means but as an end in itself.Of course ruling elites may use it as a means but that is a different subject.

If religion is used to attain an end that end lies outside the profane world or the end is a group objective and relates to the welfare of the group.It unifies whereas magic divides.



Magic has been likened to science in that it pursues practical ends,is causal, has an impersonal attitude to the causation and nothing to do with morality.If we don't know what the nature of electricity is,or gravity or radiation or the atom and merely know how to manipulate these forces to some extent they may be seen as supernatural.

It is a vast subject I'm afraid.I can't be expected to explain it.If you wish to see superstition and religion as identical that's entirely up to you but I will say that an intelligent audience would laugh at you or maybe chuck rocks for insulting them.

A pilot,on active service,may well partake of a religious ceremony to motivate himself and also carry with him good luck charms such as a rabbit's foot or an article of the clothing of his lady both of which would be magical in intention and he can be assumed to have a strong scientific training.That suggests that in extreme circumstances even a scientific training fails to overcome the atavism of superstition.It may be that those who laugh at such things have never experienced extreme circumstances or are emotionless.But one wouldn't wish to laugh and ridicule fighter pilots to their faces which suggests that such laughter and ridicule is only directed against those one has no fear of their response.

Superstition inspires narcissism and religion inspires humility and the inhibition of self indulgence.Methinks religion is under attack from those with most to gain from untrammelled self indulgence.One hardly needs an IQ above 110 to identify the prime movers.
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