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Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

 
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Thu 2 Feb, 2006 12:12 pm
Perhaps not a fool, but unwise, or at least misinformed - a trait common to ID-iots - science does not indicate humans evolved from monkeys - or apes, but rather that the species are separate and distinct, tracing to a common ancestor. The latest research seems to indicate chimps are far closer to humans than to apes/monkeys, and that separating them from humans, assigning them to the apes/monkeys, may be incorrect.
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spendius
 
  1  
Thu 2 Feb, 2006 12:30 pm
timber-

You're being a bit pedantic old chap.You know what was meant well enough.

In case you don't I'll translate it for you.

"But my dear,shouldn't we posh people keep this information from the workers in case they take it into their heads to act like animals and start fighting for the best nuts?After all Mr Darwin's theory,clever though it is,does provide them with the intellectual justification for doing so and there are a lot more of them than there are of us."
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Thu 2 Feb, 2006 12:31 pm
farmerman wrote:
The fine line that they walk in Ohio is going to be tested in court. There is a fracas that I got wind of in the Newark school district(?)


farmerman,

If you find out, can you let us know which court is taking the case?
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Sat 4 Feb, 2006 12:01 am
Quote:
Governor urges legal review of science lesson plan
(Associated Press, February 3, 2006)

COLUMBUS, Ohio - Gov. Bob Taft has recommended a legal review of a state science lesson plan and said future candidates for the State Board of Education will be asked more questions about the issue.

Taft said he remains convinced that the guidelines for 10th-grade biology do not include the theory known as "intelligent design." But a legal review would ensure Ohio was not vulnerable to a lawsuit, he told The Columbus Dispatch for a story Friday.

Taft also said he should have learned more about where his previous appointees to the board stood on the issue, and that he will be asking more about it before making future appointments.

"There were cases in which I didn't ask the right questions, in some cases where I supported someone for election or appointment," he said. "I'll be asking that question now, I can assure you."

Opponents claim the science lesson plan contains inaccurate information about evolution and promotes intelligent design, which claims an unspecified higher power designed life because of its complexity.

The board of education voted 9-8 on Jan. 10 to reject an attempt by a board member to reopen debate on the science standards.

Before he leaves office early next year, Taft plans to make appointments for the four board seats that open Dec. 31, Taft spokesman Mark Rickel said.

The governor appoints eight of the 19 board members. The terms of six elected members also expire at the end of the year.
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spendius
 
  1  
Sat 4 Feb, 2006 08:40 am
Quote:
The governor appoints eight of the 19 board members. The terms of six elected members also expire at the end of the year.


wande-

Is it the same in every state.I got the impression from Dover that they were all elected.And at the same time.

It's a subtle system.
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Sat 4 Feb, 2006 08:56 am
Spendius,

Every state is different in exactly how they treat education.

What I like is that there seems to be a political solution to every problem.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Sat 4 Feb, 2006 09:06 am
State ed boards are appointed by the governors. These guys set education standards and curriculum guidelines that all schools are (in theory) supposed to meet. Local schoolboards are elected and govern the day to day operations of a particular school district , which includes a number of elementary, middle and high schools.
In Pa in 2001 we prevailed in hearings in which the point about teaching "alternative theories to natural selection be allowed in Pa" was shot down at the state level. Dover merely exercised its local authority ti "interpret" these guidelines in a fashion that suited the school board. In that case it was no more than 2 board embers who cajolled and bullied the others into requiring the ID statement into the bio curriculum. 2 Board members resigned so the quorum was barely met. The election that "threw them all out" was the parents voicing their directive that the school board shall not be an activist group without the parents say so. Now the only left overs are that the school system is in debt for this little excursion from reality
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spendius
 
  1  
Sat 4 Feb, 2006 09:06 am
wande-

Normal service will soon be restored is what I presume you mean.Or hope at least.

But it is less fun you know.
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spendius
 
  1  
Sat 4 Feb, 2006 09:22 am
fm wrote-

Quote:
The election that "threw them all out" was the parents voicing their directive that the school board shall not be an activist group without the parents say so. Now the only left overs are that the school system is in debt for this little excursion from reality


Leaving aside that there were other issues in the election,or so somebody said a while back,this suggests it is "parent power" up against "officials".
Fair enough.But what if someone says it was an "excursion" into reality and now it's back to the unreality of parent power.

Once again an emotional choice is being disguised as intellectual conviction and simply by dint of repetition is expected to make its way.

Of course,being against "parental power",as I am,is also an emotional choice and the difference between the two positions probably derives from each side's experience of the educational system.

My school had not the slightest input from parents.Parents were seen as the scum of the earth.And I loved it.Apart from the lessons I mean.The ones in the classrooms.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Sat 4 Feb, 2006 09:42 am
spendi
Quote:
Once again an emotional choice is being disguised as intellectual conviction and simply by dint of repetition is expected to make its way.


No, its the way our Republic works. Whats so wrong about emotional choices? We love our country's mantra of "throw the bums out" In England you pay them for their congenital stations.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Sat 4 Feb, 2006 09:45 am
spendi
Quote:
Leaving aside that there were other issues in the election,or so somebody said a while back,this suggests it is "parent power" up against "officials".
Fair enough.But what if someone says it was an "excursion" into reality and now it's back to the unreality of parent power.


There were no other issues in the election. So , do you really believe that the "excursion" into ID was a worthwhile trip? if so explain, with references please.
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spendius
 
  1  
Sat 4 Feb, 2006 10:13 am
Someone said there were other issues.I didn't know.I think it was wande.

Surely fm you have seen my explanation so far.I hope to elaborate in due course if the opportunity presents itself.

Though I suspected "parent power" it was only when you mentioned it that I focussed on it.The English Public School system,as I believe also your best private schools,reduce parental influence to as close to zero as their finances permit.

You wrote-

Quote:
The election that "threw them all out" was the parents voicing their directive that the school board shall not be an activist group without the parents say so.


"directive"--"say so".

My experience of education in general leaves me opposed to such ideas.I consider them utterly ridiculous and inimical to education.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Sat 4 Feb, 2006 10:29 am
well we disagree. I believe that the community at large is an untapped resource. The schoolboards dont act in an irresponsible activist way. In the case of Dover, we see what happens. Money spent poorly, students get nothing, community strife, cats and dogs sleeping together.
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spendius
 
  1  
Sat 4 Feb, 2006 11:30 am
Didn't the "community at large" vote in those members of the board in Dover who started the fracas.And doesn't a "community at large" decide what media sources it gets?

I'm not sure I care for the word community.It seems like a euphemism for the lowest common denominator.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Sat 4 Feb, 2006 03:49 pm
Yes the community at large voted them in. The candidates came in on a ticket of fiscal responsibility only. They said nothing about their secret meetings with the ICR and the Discovery Institute through a local Baptist Church. The first time the voters had a chance to rectify the situation was the election that bounced the board members out. In fact, the entire board was replaced with new memberssince the citizens felt that they had the ultimate sayso.
We are a democratic Republic , Franklin liked representative government but didnt trust the people all the way.
Imagine if thepeople could have done nothing .
The state science requirements , fought over not 3 years earlier, would have meant nothing.

You and Franklin may have seen eye to eye. Just because he was a founding father doesnt mean he could see the nation 250 years hence
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spendius
 
  1  
Sat 4 Feb, 2006 06:19 pm
fm-

Well don't ask me to see your nation 250 years hence.I'm a sensitive person.

Quote:
They said nothing about their secret meetings with the ICR and the Discovery Institute through a local Baptist Church.


It isn't all that unusual for people to say nothing about what they are really up to.In fact it is standard practice in the places I was brought up in.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Sat 4 Feb, 2006 06:54 pm
spendi
Quote:
It isn't all that unusual for people to say nothing about what they are really up to.In fact it is standard practice in the places I was brought up in.

Well then you seem to condone the school board as the representative experts when all they are are a bunch of low end pols. When the people voted the entire bunch out it was partly that they felt that they were "lied" to. This was Dover Pa , not Chicago, where "corrupt and content" was Twains definition of the city.

In small town Pa, we know the school board members and the last things we want are unfettered manipulation, even if someone, for some reason, feels that its for our own good, and that they know better. Ya better check with the bosses first.
I am just as proud of the voters as I was of judge jones. It restores some of my depleted confidence in government at all levels.
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spendius
 
  1  
Sat 4 Feb, 2006 07:03 pm
I'll bet Judge Jones doesn't have a wife who could have produced the quote I gave recently from the meeting in Oxford when Origin Of Species was first launched on an unsuspecting public.
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spendius
 
  1  
Sat 4 Feb, 2006 07:05 pm
And I wouldn't say that about Colonel Hall's wife.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Sat 4 Feb, 2006 07:07 pm
Spendi, I doubt there are many folks who could produce quotes on the order of yours ...
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