Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

wandeljw wrote:

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Expert traces history of evolution debates

I'm not sure what Larson is trying to tell us.

I'm not sure there's any pattern to the "Phases" he identifies. He's just identifying different tacts.

In general, I see a creeping ambiguity to the creationists attacks. They are moving closer and closer to a purely philosophical basis for their arguments. But that isn't going to do anything to challenge the facts of science, so I'm not sure it's beneficial to their case.

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spendius wrote:
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What will 280 million atheists look like?

A healthy happy population ros wrote

Hahahehesmirksmirkchucklechucklehehehehehe got to go to hospital to stop ribs aching.

Why?

The idea that anyone should think that it would look just like it does now from their lounge widow if the US consisted of 280 million atheists and that this would be simply a minor adjustment such as having wheelie bins or block-pave driveways is just so ridiculous that it might make a cat laugh if it could get its head round it.

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spendius wrote:
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Things get more and more reducible every day.

We know that ros but-
This debate is in the furthest reaches of the asymptote.

What do you mean?

It means that science will never get into those furthest reaches whilever scientists have holes in their anuses.And they won't even get close.

To save space I am not miles ahead of everyone.I'm miles behind actually.

And I like Gadflies.firefly is a gadflie and I like her.

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spendius wrote:

The idea that anyone should think that it would look just like it does now from their lounge widow if the US consisted of 280 million atheists and that this would be simply a minor adjustment such as having wheelie bins or block-pave driveways is just so ridiculous that it might make a cat laugh if it could get its head round it.

First of all, I extrapolated your question to mean the whole planet and its history, not just the US. So I answered from a point of view of "where we would be right now if religion had never existed".

And I didn't say it would look just like it does now. Many people are unhappy now and psychologically unhealthy to boot. I think that over all, the population and the civilization would be better off if religion had never existed. But that's just my opinion of course.

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Larson is trying to convey a sense as he understands the "history" .While simplistically correct, theres much more to it
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/2437/whoare.htm?200512

This is a much better summary

PS, Im sorta ignoring spendi, he most often makes absolutely no sense and then, in good fashion , claims that of other people.

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farmerman wrote:

Larson is trying to convey a sense as he understands the "history" .While simplistically correct, theres much more to it.

Ok, so I'm not missing anything. He's just not saying much.

farmerman wrote:

PS, Im sorta ignoring spendi, he most often makes absolutely no sense and then, in good fashion, claims that of other people.

I know. It's good entertainment when you're bored though.

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In a column for today's The Detroit News, Thomas Bray indicates that Michigan legislators are subtly attacking evolution education:

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Brian Palmer, the Republican chair of the House Education Committee, asserts that the 16-credit core curriculum bill he is preparing doesn't need to cost anything extra. He notes that, unlike the State Board of Education, his core wouldn't include a foreign language requirement, alleviating districts of the need, say, to go to the expense of finding and hiring, say, a Chinese or Arabic teacher.
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Then there is the question of curriculum content. Under the Palmer bill, the Legislature would have the right to "review" state requirements. After all, it's paying the tab.
But that's a path to instant politicization -- as Palmer learned last week when critics attacked a sentence in his bill requiring that science classes enable students "to assess the validity" of scientific theories. This suggests, they said, Palmer is fronting for an attack on Darwin's theory of evolution.

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wandeljw wrote:

In a column for today's The Detroit News, Thomas Bray indicates that Michigan legislators are subtly attacking evolution education:

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But that's a path to instant politicization -- as Palmer learned last week when critics attacked a sentence in his bill requiring that science classes enable students "to assess the validity" of scientific theories. This suggests, they said, Palmer is fronting for an attack on Darwin's theory of evolution.

Maybe they're fronting for an attack on quantum mechanics.

I believe that science classes already enable students "to assess the validity" of scientific theories, so there's no valid reason to be "requiring" that of science classes. But there's also no reason to over react until the attack gets more focused.

What I would say to a "requirement" that science classes enable students to "assess the validity" of scientific theories, is: "Why are you wasting our time and dollars on this bill? Get back to work".

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rosborne979 wrote:

But there's also no reason to over react until the attack gets more focused.

I agree, rosborne. However, I am glad to see some reaction to a stealthy move from a legislator.

The attacks on evolution education are becoming more and more subtle as individuals attempt to circumvent the "establishment clause". At the same time, they are getting closer to total meaninglessness.

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I think that its an obvious stealth bill . Name one other theory that is questioned in public schools.
I think that, a group of teachers, trained in their disciplines (and not just ed theory) could conduct assessments of natural selection, coopting of genomes, or catastrophism , all along with ID and come out with pretty much what Judge jones did. This could turn and bite the legislators in the ass nicely. Course Ive always been one who liked to tug on SUpermans cape

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ros wrote-

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First of all, I extrapolated your question to mean the whole planet and its history, not just the US. So I answered from a point of view of "where we would be right now if religion had never existed".

Take a look at cave paintings to see where they were up to with rudimentary religion.Before that it was 2 million years of "nasty,short and brutish".we would still be there without religion.

My question though related to a future where everyone has been converted by the obvious good sense of the non-believers on this thread and also learned from them how easy and transparent it is to do the New Hampshire Side-step to the accompaniment of a one note reed instrument.

fm wrote-

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PS, Im sorta ignoring spendi, he most often makes absolutely no sense and then, in good fashion , claims that of other people.

Aw shucks (shuffles feet,wrings hands and breaks down in uncontrollable sobbings.)

Point me to where I have said anybody makes "absolutely no sense".And,if I may be so bold,to where I myself have made "absolutely no sense".

ros wrote-

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"Why are you wasting our time and dollars on this bill?

They are not wasting your dollars.They are buying things from the shops with them which creates jobs in retailing,manufacturing,importing,shipping and a whole host of other very useful activities.
And that leaves to one side that the very idea of "our" money might be deeply flawed.

Also,Mr Larson might well be a professor of history but there is no such thing as "history-as-itself".His only possible view of history is that of a professor of history which could well be radically different from the view of,say,a soldier in one of the battles he no doubt studies or that of a slave in an eschalatum in ancient Carthage or of the cleaning lady who "does" his lecture room.He probably has an officially acknowledged flair for acceptable generalisations.He belongs to a class and a time and a nation and a Culture and will have a typical picture of history as he thinks it ought to appear in relation to himself as a symbolic image of his own world view which is likely to be all the more stamped into him by his being rewarded for having it in like manner to how a seal can be trained to play God Save The Queen on a ten note organ with herrings.

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wandeljw wrote:

The attacks on evolution education are becoming more and more subtle as individuals attempt to circumvent the "establishment clause". At the same time, they are getting closer to total meaninglessness.

It's interesting isn't it, that as their attack progresses they get more and more blunted. As you say; to the point of being meaningless.

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they will fly in spirals of ever decreasing radii until they disappear youknowhere.

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spendius wrote:

ros wrote-

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First of all, I extrapolated your question to mean the whole planet and its history, not just the US. So I answered from a point of view of "where we would be right now if religion had never existed".

Take a look at cave paintings to see where they were up to with rudimentary religion.Before that it was 2 million years of "nasty,short and brutish".we would still be there without religion.

So you think that religion was one of the core thought processes which led to civilization? And not just our particular civilation, but civilization in general?

Exactly how are you using cave paintings (or anything else for that matter) to support the assumption that "we would still be there without religion"?

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fm wrote-

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they will fly in spirals of ever decreasing radii until they disappear youknowhere.

And then what?

You obviously have arrived at the society of 280 million non-believers.

Draw us a picture of it fm.I'm waiting.I can do a range of variations from Smoking Ruin to Brave New World.Think of the crusher run from grinding up cathedrals for freeway base and the redevelopment potential of the sites.And what about probate when we go back to monkey-style promiscuity or,goodness gracious,inbreeding.

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spendius wrote:

fm wrote-

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they will fly in spirals of ever decreasing radii until they disappear youknowhere.

And then what?

You obviously have arrived at the society of 280 million non-believers.

We can only hope.

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farmerman doesn't need to draw a picture, spendius.

your post is a perfect illustration Smile

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farmerman wrote:

they will fly in spirals of ever decreasing radii until they disappear youknowhere.

Natural Selection in action, when you think about it.

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ros wrote-

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So you think that religion was one of the core thought processes which led to civilization? And not just our particular civilation, but civilization in general?

Not one of the core thought processes no.THE core thought process.The other civilisations failed,but often had a fair run,because they had improper theologies.And we have no intention of following their example.

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Exactly how are you using cave paintings (or anything else for that matter) to support the assumption that "we would still be there without religion"?

I wasn't.I was pointing to the absence of perspective as much as anything.And I am talking about OUR religion which began around AD 1000 in Northern Europe and which has next to nothing to do with anything that went before.Anyone born in AD 1 in what we call Palestine was completely steeped in what we now call the Magian culture.We are Faustians.We are NEW and have hardly got started.We are shooting cameras at planets in 1000 years from scratch.Have you no sense of pride ros.

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Hey-they can't give us a prediction.My post was the 5th request to tell us what we get if we vote for them and ALL convert to unbelief and not one iota is offered.Just pale witticisms and sarcasms.

They are relying on us not all being converted to unbelief which is perfect for them.They keep the benefits of religion and have something to throw stones at and display their erudition.

Brilliant.

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timber wrote-

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farmerman wrote:
they will fly in spirals of ever decreasing radii until they disappear youknowhere.

Natural Selection in action, when you think about it.

Defeatism more like.

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Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

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