I nominate my esteemed colleague CI to carry on the argument that you want to make G. You maybe can make me quail but not ci.
Maybe Ill raise capybaras.
Good luck in your new undertakings.
I'm not arguing that religion is better or worse than government - only that government and science alone are no guarantee of anything better, and may very likely en up with something worse.
WhatdoI gotta do to get you onto this fine capybara?
george, We have never said government and science alone are gurantees of anything. We have learned from history that "democracies" work best for the majority. Even democracies don't guarantee equality of treatment or economic success. We also depend on capitalism and laws to make sure ethical standards can be maintained, but most of us understand the balance of government intrusion vs majority benefit is a difficult task. Personal interest vs societal interest is also hard to balance; we must depend on our government to make those decisions.
All we have is our vote, and that responsibility has been neglected by most Americans.
If one is sick would one take a certified medicine or one that is not certified?
wand, Just heard on t.v. that the Dover school board dropped ID, and it wasn't based on the judge's decision.
talk72000 wrote:If one is sick would one take a certified medicine or one that is not certified?
Depends on the medicine. The beauty of the free market is that each of us can decide that question individually. The wickedness of the D.E.A is that it imposes its answer to your question on all of us. Its a similar problem that as the one plaguing the public school system, just not quite as bad.
Thomas-
It isn't so simple as that I'm afraid.There are responsibility issues and potential insurance snarl-ups.After Thalidomide the balloon went up.
One of the "choices" is tobacco and alcohol not being licensed for younger age groups.
spendius wrote: One of the "choices" is tobacco and alcohol not being licensed for younger age groups.
1) Our authorities accomodate the tastes of teenagers to a much greater degree than your authorities. The incidence of alcohol- and smoking-induced illnesses in Germany is comparable to yours. The benefits of America's compulsory puritanism are greatly exaggerated by its profiteers.
2) The question of talk72000 was clearly about the choices of grown-ups, to which your counterexample does not apply by definition.
wande-
Thanks for your latest quote.
It all seems rather naive to me.There is a certain complacency around which seems to have conveniently forgotton that some things which are taken for granted had once to be sorted out and religion did it.What you have here is bourgeois arguing with bourgeois with a bourgeois agenda as if there are no others.Without a long term wisdom, which is only available in higher circles,what would prevent a regression into pagnism.One sees signs of it already if one can recognise it.Science is the fruit of the tree of knowledge and its temptation is the main danger.
These attorneys do not seem aware that they are tiny cogs in a process going back,to be pedantic,800 years and going forward maybe thousands if we get it right which we damn well ought to do with the knowledge we have.
The American desire to be "different" from Europe has resulted in your absence from the World Cup and from the Test matches.The Constitution was a practical expedient written for a small number of people who had no electricity and no instant communications.It certainly beats the loaves and fishes as a feeding miracle though.
By heck wande,this subject is as complex as DNA.
Anybody oversimplifies it is having you on.You simply can't get past a priestly caste.
There's an arrogance in refusing to accept that one doesn't know anything about running a massive social unit like the USA.
Listen to Dylan's Jokerman sometime.
Okay, spendi. I will listen to more Dylan.
However, do you think that the teaching of evolutionary theory is a cause of society's drift towards "paganism"?
wande-
Not at all.It seems a perfectly respectable theory and so obvious that when Huxley first heard of it he said "Gawdblastanddammit!!!!why didn't I think of that."It seems more of a fact than a theory.
It's just that it applies to the animal world of which we were presumably a part but some thing happened.A creation.You can take a barrel of oil and you can feed it into the technics,switch on and get burnt toast or some discreet lighting for a romantic supper for two or some coloured lights that switch on and off so you can negotiate the traffic junctions without a shootout.Like a monkey could never write a sentence like that just off the bat.I bet it takes ages to make one of the PG Tips adverts.The have some chimps dressed up as respectable married ladies taking tea together.It's hilarious.
So different rules apply to us.Killing each other fighting for the girls is out-just about.A bit of preening is alright.Team spirit required it.And the creation was when we put our heads together and agreed to share things out a bit in return for peace and quiet.Eventually we had to make up a story because the kids kept asking where they'd come from and where they were going so we did after a lot of argy-bargy which is still going on here we are.
And there's a place for that too.Helps keep the peace and quiet going a bit longer.A bit of paganism is okay as long as you don't take it seriously, and treat it as a bit of a lark.Refreshes jaded CEO types I'm told.At conferences.
All in all I think evolutionary theory has helped a natural drift into paganism as religious influence has waned.There are other factors though.But that is only to be expected as our religion was an evolutionary defeat of paganism in the first place and if you stop painting the girders the rust will set in and they will return to iron oxide dust which won't hold bridges up and bridges are very important you know.
Religion is not a revolutionary defeat against paganism. Paganism gave religion birth.
Another interesting perspective.
Another excerpt from David Hawkins' "Truth vs. Falsehood: How to Tell the Difference":
When we view the evolution of consciousness and the origins of the ego in the animal domain, we can understand that the ego is primarily the continuation of the animal level of consciousness within the human psyche. When viewed from an evolutionary perspective, an understanding arises that allows for compassion for that for that which has been traditionally demonized and condemned and has been the source of much conflict, guilt, and suffering. The ego is not overcome by condemnation, hatred, and guilt: rather, one deenergizes it by viewing it objectively for what it truly is, i.e., a vestigial remnant of man's evolutionary origins. Paradoxically, the ego is reinforced by condemnation, labeling it as "sin," sackcloth and ashes, and wallowing in guilt, which is merely utilizing the ego to attack the ego, thereby reinforcing it. The vilification of the ego creates so much guilt that the most common way that human consciousness handles the conflict is through denial, secularism, and by projecting blame onto others. This is represented in our current society, which is obsessed with the model of perpetrator versus victim, leading to world conflict and the litigious and contentious qualities of society.
As Freud discovered, out of guilt the animal nature of man becomes repressed and then projected onto others or a deity that purportedly has the same character defects as man. Historically, man paradoxically fears his own projections and confuses divinity with the repressed dark side of his own nature. The ego is dissolved not by denunciation or self-hatred, which are expressions of the ego, but by benign and nonmoralistic acceptance and compassion that arise out of understands its intrinsic nature and origin.
Although guilt and repentance may have a certain pragmatic usefulness for brief periods in one's spiritual evolution, it is to be noted from examining the Map of Consciousness that guilt, self-hatred, remorse, regret, despondency, and all such negative positionalities are at the bottom of the list, whereas forgiveness, love acceptance, and joy are at the top of the list, leading to enlightenment. The ego's cleverness and innate self-dedication to survival can be appreciated in that large segments of mankind, often aided and abetted by dark interpretations of religion, have led the masses to seek at the bottom of the Map of Consciousness, which are the avenues to negativity, rather than at the top of the Map, which leads to the realizations of advanced spiritual awareness, the knowledge of divinity and the nonjudgmental reality that underlies all existence and Creation.
First sentience, then wonder, then anamism, then shamanisim, then paganism, from which flowed all religion.
timber-
So presumably if religion is eradicated the direction is towards the beginning of your list of labels which obviously is missing;namely,non sentience.Unless we proceed to Science which Orwell thought would lead to a boot stamping on your face for ever and ever.
spendi, Religion will never be eradicated; where in the world do you come up with such ideas?
c.i.
I could pick a few holes in the Hawkins piece but really it would take too long.There a lot of words in there that need defining and even then the ideas they symbolise are not things in isolation from the other ideas.
Freud ended up with us having a death instinct which I don't buy.To end up there doesn't say much for the journey.But I suppose I'm just in denial.They always have that trick up their sleeve.
I'm supposed to have a feminine side.I'm supposed to try to get in touch with it.What a load of bullocks.
