If you get an answer from spendius on that, he will then ask you to watch Bob Dylan's "Masked and Dangerous".
MA-
SODs are Scientific (On Your Own)Design partisans.
It is a riposte to ID-iots.
wande-
I recommend Masked and Anonymous.But finish the course.Twice a week for 3 months.
My apologies to everyone. The title of the Bob Dylan movie that spendius wants all of us to see is "Masked and Anonymous".
wande-
I'm not sure about "wanting" you all to see it.
You won't "see" it in ten viewings.And I know most people think they have "seen" a movie in one shot or "read" a book in one sweet and easy breath.Works of art require study which is why it is so important to be able to identify them in the general slush.
Today's issue of the Chicago Tribune has an article discussing three possible outcomes in the Dover case. The article analyzes different ways that Judge John Jones could decide the case. Below are excerpts from the Chicago Tribune article:
Quote:To reach his decision, Jones likely will use the "Lemon test" from a 1971 case--Lemon vs. Kurtzman--to decide whether the school board had a proper secular purpose for its action, and perhaps whether the effect of the board's action was to promote or inhibit religion.
Jones, a former trial lawyer elevated to the bench by President Bush in 2002, has many options for his decision, but three stand out as most likely, according to legal observers.
First, he could rule broadly that ID is a religious belief, not a scientific theory. If so, the introduction of ID in a public school science class would be unconstitutional.
"And that, of course, is the option we are asking the court to take," said Witold Walczak, legal director of the American Civil Liberties Union of Pennsylvania. The ACLU, along with Americans United for Separation of Church and State and the Philadelphia firm of Pepper Hamilton, represented the plaintiffs at no cost.
"Legally, the opinion is only binding on Dover. Practically, it's likely to have greater effect. For example, the seminal creation science case was McClean vs. Arkansas. That case never went beyond the district court and that decision was binding only on Arkansas . . . but it had tremendous effect all across the country," said Walczak.
He referred to a 1982 case in which a federal court ruled that an Arkansas statute requiring public schools to give "balanced treatment for creation-science and evolution science" violated the establishment clause of the 1st Amendment. It found legislators lacked a secular purpose and passed a law advancing a religious belief.
Second and equally broad in scope, Jones could affirm the constitutionality of teaching ID by supporting its validity as scientific theory and rejecting the argument that it is a religious belief, a decision the ACLU probably would appeal.
"If that happens, we're going to have school boards across the country trying it [introducing ID] the next day," said Charles Haynes, senior scholar and director of education programs at the First Amendment Center in Arlington, Va.
*****************************************************
....Jones could issue a narrow decision, limited to whether board members had a primarily religious, rather than secular, purpose in adopting the policy introducing ID.
"I don't think it's the test case most of us would have hoped for," said attorney Valerie Munson, head of the religion and law practice group at the Philadelphia firm of Eckert Seamans.
Usually, it is difficult to determine motivation or purpose, she and others noted. But in the Dover case, some members of the board made public statements about Jesus Christ and creationism, which indicated religion may have weighed more heavily in the adoption of the ID policy than their asserted purpose of encouraging critical thinking in students.
If Jones decides the case on motivation, the broader questions about ID would be left to other cases in other courts.
wande quoted-
Quote:First, he could rule broadly that ID is a religious belief, not a scientific theory.
What are they wasting their time on that for when so many intellectual high-flyers on this thread have already dealt with that so conclusively.
wande quoted-
Quote: The ACLU, along with Americans United for Separation of Church and State and the Philadelphia firm of Pepper Hamilton, represented the plaintiffs at no cost.
That suggests that the plaintiffs wouldn't be in the case without these bodies paying.Were the plaintiffs on wages is the obvious question begged.Did they say what they were told to say is the next one.
wande-
Fascinating mate.I do so love this type of thing.A whole industry built on a wisp of smoke.
spendius wrote:That suggests that the plaintiffs wouldn't be in the case without these bodies paying.Were the plaintiffs on wages is the obvious question begged.Did they say what they were told to say is the next one.
spendius,
I still do not understand your approach to this case. You are neither anti-religion nor anti-science. Instead, you seem to be anti-parents-of-schoolchildren-who-dare-to-oppose-a-school-policy.
wande-
Oh,I'm that alright.What do parents know about living in a society moving as fast as this one is.I guess the plaintiffs would be 40ish.Starting school in about 1970.Blimey-that's almost pre-historic.
When Dylan wrote-
"Come mothers and fathers throughout the land,
Don't criticise what you can't understand
Your sons and your daughters are beyond your command,
Your old road is rapidly agin'"
"rapid" wasn't anywhere near as rapid is now and going faster with the foot down.
That's early 60s.They had steam trains then and diptheria.And no traffic wardens.
I also admire Bob Dylan's poetry but I do not think he intended it to be a "panacea".
spendius wrote: That's early 60s.They had steam trains then and diptheria.And no traffic wardens.
By the early 60's steam trains had gone electric, diptheria and been banished and traffic wardens were thick as fleas. I know the last from personal experience.
Acq-
I indulged a little poetic licence.
wande wrote-
Quote:I also admire Bob Dylan's poetry but I do not think he intended it to be a "panacea".
He certainly didn't.You want The Beatles and Elvis and The Stones for that.Dylan's stuff is no panacea.
It's intended to grab you by the scruff of the neck and shake you out of your daft ideas.It's word blacksmithing.
Notice that the position of Science in society is so secure that it does not have to do such silly promotions as insinuating itself into Religion classes. This reflects the decline of religion in America. By "decline" I mean that literalist religion is increasing the domain of less educated people. Wilso's announcement of the "collapse" of their ideology echos Nietzsche's 19th century pronouncement of God's death (meaning not the death of a supernatural being but the decline of The Church as a foundation for society). As I see it, fundamentalist religion is on a cultural par with country music and junk food. They are by no means disappearaing but they are declining.
In the end, the ID-iot proposition must and will fail to gain juridical or legislative equality with The Scientific Theory of Evolution, for the simple inescapable reason that ID-ocy does not fulfill the requirements which define scientific theory, but rather conforms to mythology. No research, no evidence, no logic, no reason - just speculation, denial, and objection.
Simply can't fly - or even walk; it has evolved no wings to lift itself from the swamp of superstition, nor legs to support itself on a march to legitimacy. It is but an ignorant, superstitious objection to science, it is not nor ever can it be science. If it should somehow - inexplicably, to my mind - slither past this judge, it will fail to survive the inevitable appeal process.
In this matter, the ID-iots have shot themselves in the foot - fatally. It may take 'em a while to bleed to death, but that is their fate, and they've no one to blame for it but themselves. In this matter overall, "Don't ask, don't tell" would have been a better way to go than "We demand to be permitted to play our way too, and make our rules not only equal to but determinative of everyone else's".
The ID-iots will not change the game, they'll be escorted from the field and locked out of the park.
timber wrote on behalf of the SOD's cause-
Quote:Simply can't fly - or even walk; it has evolved no wings to lift itself from the swamp of superstition, nor legs to support itself on a march to legitimacy.
What overblown rhetoric!Did you enjoy that?
Could you explain why you enjoyed it?Scientifically I mean.
The rest is bit of fancy assertion.And it fails to address the simple question-what happens when religion is dead and buried and the SODs are banging the sods on the grave down with the back of their shovels and the stamp of their boots.(That's a literary allusion).(A double barreled one.)
spendius i have no idea what the **** you are on about half the time but rock on those carthegenian slaves...