97
   

Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

 
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Fri 18 Dec, 2015 04:59 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Fil...any of the things mentioned in your ruminations...may be the REALITY...or part or the REALITY.

Some people...think INTELLIGENT DESIGN means the creation story of the Bible; some think intelligent design means that something intelligent had to move things along; some think all just happened as a result of nature.

The ones who absolutely reject any of the other POSSIBILITIES are the ones I say are lacking in reason, logic...and SCIENCE, because any of them are possible.

Now the theists...especially a fundamentalist...will suggest that the hand of the God described in the bible is the most likely.

Other theists would suggest the hand of A god is the most likely.

Atheists would suggest that no hand...no god...is the most likely.

I'm an agnostic. I say any of these guesses are based on nothing but bias.

Nothing leads to a "more likely" scenario.

Evolution...Darwinism...almost certainly has happened as scientists are now explaining...

...but there is no way to determine if that happening was at the instigation of a creator of some kind...god or otherwise.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Fri 18 Dec, 2015 06:24 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
Quote:
You see Intelligence is not of agents, but of Nature
Not the perfect statement of what perplexes me about why ID is such a non-obvious possibility to most but FWIW:

Why is it most people see "Nature" as synonymous with everything around us? I think that is the basic difference between my perspective and 'main stream science'.

Nature to me is what is controlled by a small handful of basic forces (weak & strong atomic force, gravity, etc) of physics. Virtually everything in the universe is elegantly explained by these forces, the motion of mass, fusion in stars, generation of all the elements in novae, geology, weather, etc. It's actually pretty simple and all very obvious. I get that, it all adds up and makes sense. Everything EXCEPT life.

From that standpoint, everything biological is the most un-natural thing I can imagine. Nothing about it can be explained with the precision that everything else can. I know about the attempts to fit life into these 'natural causes' but it looks like as much a force fit to 'nature' as ID looks to main stream science to 'Darwinists'. I hesitate to use the 'D' word because it brings up evolution which is NOT at all what I'm talking about. That's a different subject.

Not trying to convince you Fil, just venting my POV.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Fri 18 Dec, 2015 06:39 pm
@Leadfoot,
Not trying to convince you either, Leadfoot...

...but I just do not see how anything that exists...can be thought of as un-natural or supernatural.

If there is a GOD, for instance, I do not see how it could be considered supernatural.

Is this just a semantic or definitional difference?
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Fri 18 Dec, 2015 07:54 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Therefore you believe in agnosticism my dear Frank... Wink
Well..."I", is ! (There's no denying existence)
Truth is all around you.
0 Replies
 
hingehead
 
  1  
Fri 18 Dec, 2015 08:40 pm
@Fil Albuquerque,
The devil needs a better advocate Wink

Completely redefining intelligence as something with no self-awareness and giving nature an capital N doesn't really add much to the discussion in my pathetically honest opinion. Or do I mean honestly pathetic opinion?

I think you're echoing shades of a point a made a few pages back when leadfoot offered the binary 'accident or design' and I suggested neither. But calling the consequences of natural forces 'intelligent' seems specious to me.
fresco
 
  2  
Sat 19 Dec, 2015 02:29 am
@hingehead,
Correct and not pathetic. ' Intelligence' must imply degree of 'calculation relative to GOALS'. All Fil ever talks about is 'calculation/computation'. And calculation itself involves counting 'things' as a first level of measurement, which like 'goals' is fundamentally an anthropocentric issue.

Another key issue in this interminable debate is how to account for 'self - awareness' . Some philosophers argue that such a mode is intricately bound up with 'language' ( in its widest sense to include some animal communication).. For example, if you think about those ridiculous selves which occupy our dreams during sleep, you will often find word play as a central feature of the bizarre logic operating. ( l found myself buying green paint last night after visiting Dr Green my dentist whose surgery is being re-furbished). I have commented too on 'prayer' as 'word magic' as far as believers are concerned. I suggest those who need to account for 'self awareness' observe that 'self' in all its modes and lapses and investigate whether their concern is a pseudo-problem
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  2  
Sat 19 Dec, 2015 05:14 am
@Leadfoot,
Quote:
why was a supreme court case needed for something so obvious?
You keep railing me, as if science was the one that went after the Fundamentalist Chritians. Instead Try telling that to the CReationists who , in 1979, strongly supported passage of a law in Louisiana that said that "Scientific Creationism" will be taught in public school science in favor of "godless evolution". This law remained on the books for almost 10 years until it was wiped away by the Supreme Court's decision of Edwards v Aguillard.

The Supreme Court found no scientific value in "Scientific Creationism", (I suppose the precedent established in this case also weighed on Judge Jones decision in Dover, especially since the technical issues were pretty much the same.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  3  
Sat 19 Dec, 2015 06:31 am
@Leadfoot,
Quote:
I'm waiting to see the actual school board policy before I accept that as the case
Youre skating again. SChool board "policies" are often not written and only come about as the schoolboard minutes record some comment about these "policies" in a meeting. Only then will there become some written "rules"

If you would read the history of the Dover case, you will know everything that had happened, how the school board voted to adopt the "ID policy" and how, after the case was in the deliberation phase, how an elwction was able to remover the ID proponents from the elected board.
IT WAS THE BOARD that initially began the whole ID issue. Board member Alan Bonsell had represented a new bunch of incoming Evangelical citizens and had introduced the concept of "Cretionism" and school prayer at consecutive annual Board "Retreats". Bonsell had worked himself to become the head of "Curriculu Dover's "curriculum and textbook committees" in 2003 and then was elected board president in 2004. People described him as "driven in those tasks".
In early 2004 Bonsell had several other board members < individuals who apparently straddled a fence about this issue, visit with the science faculty to announce that Bonseel wished to achieve some "balance" in the cience curricula.
The board members were clear in that they never mentioned the word "C reationism" but the science faculty, (in later testimony, all knew what was being pitched)

Funny that Bonsell didnt propose a "balance" based upon a Buddhist view of creation, or American Indian . He wanted a Genesis based view of creation as featured in King James's Bible, especially the"In the Beginning... part.
There was NO directives or written policy, just initimidation and verbal threats that were never recorded. In spring of 2004, the bord nnounced to the faculty that they expected some changes in teaching about evolution were expected. FACULTY members were the first to take exception. They told the board that, because of all the new Fundamentalist nd Evangelical churches that had recently "resettled" to the Dover area, the science faculty had already taught an abbreviated version of Darwin's theory and follow on evidence. They were sensitive of the rising Evangelicalism in the surrounding townships. They clearly taught what was in the new Pa stndards for science education , but not a FULL version. The faculty wanted to teach what was fact but not get the parents of many new students all riled.
In fact, several teachers had actually abandoned some popular sections of thei classes that included such things as a detailed analysis of "What is Cience", in which the kids would research and discuss several concepts like "Hypothesis" ,"Theory" and "peer review" .
This annual excercise was used in a colloquium involving several classes of science. The kids loved it but it was abandoned because the bord had begun to use more nd more intimidqtion in "overseeing" the "appropriateness " of these excercises.

NOW, in your world, you want to see the "BOARD POLICY" about all the goings on. Prhaps its in the board minutes but I think not. Noone like to lave a paper trail especially when board intimidation can be forensically (QAll that Im discussing appears in the court record as direct and cross testimony after the actual case was over.

Several other things happened in aclear sequence, most of which left no Board "policy" trails, or if they did, you know damned well how "minutes" can be scrubbed so they are often minimalist and innocuous in appearnace.
Like when Bonsell became the Board Chairman, he sought out an "Appointed Board Member" to fill his vacancy (rather than wait for an election cycle). He found another cronie named William Buckingham who Bonsell had "promoted" to the curriculum chairmanship (the minutes of the trnsaction merely state that "Buckingham agreed to fill the vacancy as member AND CHAIR in a standing Board committee". He was conferred by vote , (where a quorum had barely been reached ).

The case that ensued was one of treachery, fraud, and, as Judge Jones stated, was rife with "Illegality" "Self dealing" and, BREATHLESS INANITY"

The Discovery Intitute had latched on to Dover early, and similrly, had learned that this case was NOT winneable as such because (I think) they too began seeing that most of the characters involved were a bunch of clowns. Discovery, saw this as a way to ascend the isue to the US Supreme Court in order to wrest the Edwards... decision out of the LOSE column.

Discovery Institute... once it had latched on to the case, almost immediately began to do an about face and tried to convince all their members (who had signed up as defense witnesses) to reconsider and have "Urgent needs to get a haircut" on the trial dates. They would remove much of their support(but not all) from the Thomas More center (the chosen lawyers). However, everal DI "experts", most noteably, Dr Michael Behe, felt they could do a compelling testimony job and "Scientifially support" ID in court.

It was a bloody disaster for ID. At best, they came off looking like paleo-fools, and at worst, they looked like sincere believers in Merlin and Sorcery.
Dr Behe, when in cross, stated that the supernatural will ultimately be evidenced as true science. When purued with the obvious follow-up "HOW WOULD THIS BE DONE"?
he folded and lwft the box, a bit less tall in scientific stature( Behe has been a very important researcher in molecular Biology for years).
He was a tenured professor at Lehigh and (he still is), but the University then issued a "policy statement" that the U does not necessarily endorse the personal beliefs of tenured faculty-in the spirit of full disclosure and freedom of expression by faculty" The U never "got on Behe". Im ure he was looked at as if he had a huge koqla on his hwad for severql semesters but I assume hes pretty much "lived it down" by now.

I know hes now a board Member of The Discovery Institute (apparently they, like some other organizations give " reward and respect" to someone who is a "Stand -up guy"

Sorry for flapping but I just wanted to give you a "heads-up" that much of what has been considered "POLICY" by th Doverschool board during that time, was only discovered by investigative reporters who looked at board minutes and trial record and conducted detailed interviews of the living.

farmerman
 
  3  
Sat 19 Dec, 2015 06:44 am
@Leadfoot,
Quote:

A. There is no possibility that there is any design in the universe
I dont think thats the role of science. We can only study what we are capable of unsertaking. So far, NOONE has been able to construct a workable work plan that allows an investigation of "design in the universe"
Thats as specious diversion as is your need to read the Dover "policy and practice manuals" before you render any opinions .

Science operates uner an assumption of "methodological naturlism" and almost ALL the evidence seems to back that up (with the exception that IDers, whenever they run into a pice of "unfriendly evidence" state that "QWell, theis is the way a god qould ork his magic, hed make believe that everything is random and that ID was "designed" to give an appearance that evidence of evolution actually reveals"

With that kind of BS, we would waste a lot of time.
IF some cosmic message board shows up where it becomes evident that an intelligence WAS involved, Id be one of thw fiorst to say "OOPS, I was wrong" "Now what can we do to exploit this new information?"

Im totally an applied science guy. I live with data (Im a data guy). I spend other peoples money to make them more (and me of course). I have absolutely NO TIME for the Frankies or gungasnakes (who by their own rapid-fire repetition of their mantras) cant go anywhere. They are stuck in one groove and dont even know it.

If you can come up with a structure of a work-plan with which to investigate the certainty of ID, I will certainly be interested because it would , of course, have many other applications in which ALL of science would be changed forever.

Im going for breakfast. see ya
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Sat 19 Dec, 2015 06:56 am
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:

Quote:

A. There is no possibility that there is any design in the universe
I dont think thats the role of science. We can only study what we are capable of unsertaking. So far, NOONE has been able to construct a workable work plan that allows an investigation of "design in the universe"
Thats as specious diversion as is your need to read the Dover "policy and practice manuals" before you render any opinions .

Science operates uner an assumption of "methodological naturlism" and almost ALL the evidence seems to back that up (with the exception that IDers, whenever they run into a pice of "unfriendly evidence" state that "QWell, theis is the way a god qould ork his magic, hed make believe that everything is random and that ID was "designed" to give an appearance that evidence of evolution actually reveals"

With that kind of BS, we would waste a lot of time.
IF some cosmic message board shows up where it becomes evident that an intelligence WAS involved, Id be one of thw fiorst to say "OOPS, I was wrong" "Now what can we do to exploit this new information?"

Im totally an applied science guy. I live with data (Im a data guy). I spend other peoples money to make them more (and me of course). I have absolutely NO TIME for the Frankies or gungasnakes (who by their own rapid-fire repetition of their mantras) cant go anywhere. They are stuck in one groove and dont even know it.

If you can come up with a structure of a work-plan with which to investigate the certainty of ID, I will certainly be interested because it would , of course, have many other applications in which ALL of science would be changed forever.

Im going for breakfast. see ya


I'm not stuck in any groove, Farmerman...although I suspect you are.

I am saying that if you and the other "scientific, logical, reasonable" atheists here actually were scientific, logical or reasonable...you would all acknowledge the obvious:

We do not know if there is a god or a creator for what we call "the universe."

There is no evidence (or reason/logic) for concluding no god or no creator for it exists.

If it is possible that a god or creator exists (AND IT IS POSSIBLE)...it is possible everything we see is part of intentional design.

So don't give me that crap that what I am saying is nothing more than a mantra.

People like you and some of the others here love to argue with the theists who insist on a GOD, because their arguments cannot hold water. You avoid mine like the plague...because you know they are spot on and you do not have the spine to acknowledge that.

In continuing your insistence on YOUR mantra, Farmerman, you are a laughable fraud.

Hope you enjoyed your breakfast. I'm about to have a bacon and egg sandwich myself.
0 Replies
 
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Sat 19 Dec, 2015 08:20 am
@farmerman,
I'm not skating anywhere farmer. There is some interesting stuff in your post (that will have to wait until later for me to comment on) but for the basic point you make below:

Quote:
Leadfoot Quote:
"I'm waiting to see the actual school board policy before I accept that as the case "


Youre skating again. SChool board "policies" are often not written and only come about as the schoolboard minutes record some comment about these "policies" in a meeting. Only then will there become some written "rules"
I'll take your word for it (for now) but Holy ****! You mean it was all about a 'policy' that was never written down?? Attitudes of the board? WTF.

Again, it may be that the Board members heads were full of ****, but how do you make a court case out of 'thought'? Here's my reaction to the scenario you describe.

The only actionable issue here would have been 'intimidation' of the teachers and/or firing without cause if it went that far, which apparently it didn't.

To have the central issue of the case be 'ID', I would conclude that K. (or whoever) had the agenda to quash any and all approaches to ID from the start. If the teachers felt they were improperly intimidated they could have simply ignored the ignorant board or sued them for intimidation or firing without cause. Somebody here had an ax to grind and ID was the chicken they wanted to decapitate. Sounds like they had the perfect opportunity in Dover. The board was just serendipitous (and maybe even well deserved) collateral damage.

As far as board policy being unwritten, such is not the case elsewhere as you later mentioned in (PA or LA?) and in another I mentioned [in TX I think].

So much more to comment on there but more mundane duties call.
farmerman
 
  3  
Sat 19 Dec, 2015 09:41 am
@Leadfoot,
Quote:
but Holy ****! You mean it was all about a 'policy' that was never written down?? Attitudes of the board? WTF.


As I think I was fairly clear on, many "policy" positions are only reflected in meeting minutes. Ive worked on many governmental "policy" committees and commissions in which anything we published was merely taken from our meeting minutes. This is quite common in US and "laws or regulations" usually grow out of these policy statements that are memorialized in meeting minutes


Quote:

Again, it may be that the Board members heads were full of ****, but how do you make a court case out of 'thought
. The court case was made when the "****" was carried out in class. The science classes were required to read a statement that basically stated that the science of evolution was unsettled and (implicit) that it was in a state of chaos. Each science class was required to have this statement read at the opening of the semester.

There are about 12 tenets of Evangelical Fundamental Christianity . One of which conflicts with the findings of science and the definition of "THEORY" within science. Most all other (non Evangelical Fundamental) denominations of Christianity do not disgree with what science has said. IN THAT RESPECT, you must be aware that this entire discussion of CREATIONISM/ID is representative of a very small percentage of all the religious sects in the US, and as such messed with the "Establishment Clause".
I believe that your acceptance of the Constitution's wording as obvious and totally clear is a bit naive. There are entire lawfirms AND THE US SUPREME COURT that deal only with the definition of "constitutionality" of the Constitution itself and how it is being huckstered .

I would probably disagree with your interpretation of the 2nd Amendment. (I am first a gun owning believer in the 2nd amendments grant to me to carry a weapon-which I pften do in my work)>>
However, I DO NOT accept that this amendment puts ALL gun ownership out of the reach of any control, because I think that the first segment of the amendment which states (and I praphrase)
"A well regulated militia being necessary..."

I believe that statement is for the PROTECTION of people UNDER government and NOT to protect us FROM the government.

There will be, generationally I believe, further discussions of control of arms to limit those who would wish to harm others by gun. Freedom does not imply chaos and gun anarchy as the strict "2nd Amendmentists".
But thats enough about that.

Your initial report in here was that ID IS scientifically demonstrable and , in Dover at least, the proponents (your guys), have failed miserably to make the case to aan objective , albeit lay scientist judge. The fact that noone wished to appeal the decision was, in part, due to the clear prose presented by Judge Jones and the compelling logic of his decision, within qhich he broke down what one needs to be considered "Scientific" (at least by legal tests)

YOU SHOULD REALLY READ THE DECISION T LEAST.
0 Replies
 
NomoreNoDance
 
  -1  
Sat 19 Dec, 2015 09:47 am
Wait for it, wait for it!

Is this for real?

Is science now hiring judges and laywers so we take them seriously???

If this is really true, I have to laugh so loud and incredible......

This can't be really happening now, can it?
farmerman
 
  4  
Sat 19 Dec, 2015 10:07 am
@Leadfoot,
Quote:
To have the central issue of the case be 'ID', I would conclude that K. (or whoever) had the agenda to quash any and all approaches to ID from the start.
Perhaps, but why do you ignore the fact that the Commonwealth of PA has established the minimal education requirements for the study of biology in the public schools and they do NOT mention ID as an " approved supplemental curriculum". (I was on the state ed committee in the late 1990's when the wording that celebrates the "Scientific Method" and falsifiability as key diagnostics in the definition of science programs.
The Pa Constitution sort of underpins the US Constitution and the Commonwealth has enjoyed a 300 year history as a fairly agnostic and quite a tolerant state . So, while weve been friendly to all beliefs, we do NOT load up any public program with any "chosen" worldview .
You are free to believe any way you wish, just DO NOT try to push your belief on anyone who doesnt want to hear it.
(IN a nutshell, thats what Dover was really all about), The leadership of Dover's school board tried to push its Evangelical beliefs into the biology curriculum, and the other members didnt have the cojones to challenge the leadership nd so went along like a bunch of pussies and let the whole ACTION PLAN get underway. It took some really pissed off citizens who could NOT believe that the school board would even let this issue come to be, (by whatever methods of intimidation the board leadership employed) .
Those citizens DID NOTHING until the teachers and Mr Buckingham qnd Mr Bonsell began reading a statement in each class of science to a bunch of really confused students (who were apparently waaay more savvy than the adult decision makers who made up the school board). After the statement was read ,and the whole ID thing started as an official school district action, (not a "thought") , the firt complaints began. When the complaints were ignored, the citizens complined officially to the state and the County Government.
The entire thing could have been settled (in fact , settlement discussions were suggested by the ulitimate plaintiffs because they knew this whole thing was going to waste valuable cash).
It was ALL in the hands of the SChool board and two individuals who were Queeg-like.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  2  
Sat 19 Dec, 2015 10:11 am
@NomoreNoDance,
Quote:

Is science now hiring judges and laywers so we take them seriously???

If this is really true, I have to laugh so loud and incredible.


If you were cheated out of the right to, say, VOTE, would you complain about the loss of your rights?
If you cannot understand the nature of this case, blame your teacher who did not teach you how to analyze an issue.

Do you care not whether the Christian Bibles interpretation of life is taught as SCience??
farmerman
 
  3  
Sat 19 Dec, 2015 10:14 am
@farmerman,
****, Nomore No Dance is just another screen name for Quahog
InTheMood
 
  -1  
Sat 19 Dec, 2015 10:26 am
@farmerman,
Quote:

If you were cheated out of the right to, say, VOTE, would you complain about the loss of your rights?


We have no rights to vote. We only have the ILLUSION that we have a right to vote.

Quote:
If you cannot understand the nature of this case, blame your teacher who did not teach you how to analyze an issue.


understand? blame? Aren't yopu a bit childish here?

Quote:

Do you care not whether the Christian Bibles interpretation of life is taught as SCience??


Why, religion is religion! And you are making the mistake of not adressing the fact that I am asking the how not the why?

The fact that science needs lawers and coutrs is extremely hilarious!

It means that in reality they have no feet to stand on!

And it seems you are not good at reading and no good at logic.
I hope not you studied something ehhh scientific? lol

Judges to defend science!!! My god, just thinking about it makes me,,well you know kiddie,
MontereyJack
 
  2  
Sat 19 Dec, 2015 11:00 am
@farmerman,
I just hit InTheMood's initial post on this site, and I reached exactly the same conclusion about him, not having seen MoMoreNoDance's initial post. Either that or quahog's somehow now acting like an intellectual Typhoid Mary spreading lunacy.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Sat 19 Dec, 2015 12:49 pm
@InTheMood,
What kind of illegal drugs are you taking? We have no rights to vote? That's very funny, because I've been voting since I was 18, and I'm now 80. That's over half century of voting.
0 Replies
 
hingehead
 
  2  
Sat 19 Dec, 2015 01:40 pm
@NomoreNoDance,
Quote:
Is science now hiring judges and laywers so we take them seriously???

Ah, no. Citizens used the courts to enforce their constitutional right for separation of church and state. I think. Pity you don't Q.
0 Replies
 
 

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