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Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

 
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Thu 19 Nov, 2015 04:14 pm
@wandeljw,
good one.
0 Replies
 
Leadfoot
 
  0  
Thu 19 Nov, 2015 07:01 pm
@wandeljw,
You knew who I was talk'n about din't ya...
Dim Darwinists is alla time call'n me IDiot an I knows who day talk'n about.

Damn, I gotta stop hang'n wit layman..
0 Replies
 
Leadfoot
 
  0  
Thu 19 Nov, 2015 07:30 pm
Phys.org recently reported on sequencing the genome of the tiny bottom feeding acorn worm and says that we have the same feeding slit gene as the worm but it later evolved into gills for breathing and later turned into our voice box and pie hole. Ain't that some evolution.

Quote:
Since acorn worms and the human lineage diverged 570 million years ago, pharyngeal slits for filtering food evolved into gills for extracting oxygen, and later into today's human upper and lower jaw and pharynx, which encompasses the thyroid gland, tongue, larynx (voice box) and various glands and muscles between the mouth and the throat. Humans and other terrestrial vertebrates actually initiate vestigial gills while embryos, though they disappear quickly and rarely persist in infants.
"The presence of these slits in acorn worms and vertebrates tells us that our last common ancestor also had them, and was likely a filter feeder like acorn worms today," said Daniel Rokhsar, one of the leaders of the sequencing effort and a UC Berkeley professor of molecular and cell biology and of physics. "Acorn worms are marine invertebrates that, despite their decidedly non-vertebrate form, are nevertheless among our closest invertebrate relatives."

Read more at: http://phys.org/news/2015-11-sequencing-genomes-closest-wormy-cousins.html#jCp

Of course you could look at it as a multipurpose gene that other gene modifiers work on to create the needed organ. Could have been intended for use in later species by design from the start. More software re-use. Course this would be indinguishable from Evolution.

I'm just say'n.
0 Replies
 
Leadfoot
 
  -1  
Thu 19 Nov, 2015 07:48 pm
@farmerman,
Here's a little of that article I mentioned. Seems Dawkins was also one of the last 'junk DNA' holdouts as well (2009). I know, it's from your least favorite source but I have yet to catch them 'make'n stuff up' in quoting others.

Quote:
In 2007, Columbia University philosopher of science Philip Kitcher published his Oxford University Press book Living with Darwin. Citing the mass of "genomic junk" that "litters the genome," Kitcher announced, "The most striking feature of the genomic analyses we now have is how much apparently nonfunctional DNA there is."4 In his view, "From the Darwinian perspective all this is explicable," but "if you were designing the genomes of organisms, you would certainly not fill them up with junk."5
Just Kidding -- We Anticipated Function!

When ENCODE's findings were published, many evolutionists reacted harshly to the conclusion that virtually our entire genome is functional. Others, however, realized that it would be sage advice to switch their bets, or simply place new ones alongside the old.

For example, a 2014 paper in Biology & Philosophy initially claimed that "junk DNA seems at odds with the view that the genome is ... the work of an intelligent force or designer," but then argued that a junk-free genome "is compatible with evolution by natural selection," because "we could expect natural selection to evolve lean genomes."6 According to this posturing, whether our genome is full of junk or devoid of it, evolution wins.

But first prize for betting on both horses goes to Richard Dawkins. In his 1976 book The Selfish Gene, Dawkins famously argued that "a large fraction"7 of our genomes is useless parasitic DNA, and that Darwinian evolution explains why:

The true "purpose" of DNA is to survive, no more and no less. The simplest way to explain the surplus DNA is to suppose that it is a parasite, or at best a harmless but useless passenger, hitching a ride in the survival machines created by the other DNA.8
Again in 2004 he railed against "creationists" on the basis of our junk-laden genomes:
[C]reationists might spend some earnest time speculating on why the Creator should bother to litter genomes with untranslated pseudogenes and junk tandem repeat DNA.9
As recently as 2009, Dawkins adopted the incredible position that "the greater part (95 per cent in the case of humans) of the genome might as well not be there, for all the difference it makes."10
In September 2012, however, Dawkins changed his tune dramatically. Just one week after ENCODE's results were published, in a debate against Britain's chief rabbi, Dawkins declared that ENCODE's results are precisely what "Darwinism" (in Dawkins's own words) predicts:

There are some creationists who are jumping on [ENCODE] because they think it's awkward for Darwinism. Quite the contrary, of course, it is exactly what a Darwinist would hope for -- to find usefulness in the living world.11
He went on to say, "[W]e thought that only a minority of the genome was doing something, namely that minority which actually codes for protein. And now we find that actually the majority of it is doing something." Under Dawkins's newly reformed view, "the rest [of the genome] which had previously been written off as junk" is now understood as "the program" that's "calling into action the protein coding genes."12
It's as if Dawkins's decades of arguing that our genome is full of junk never happened.
Briancrc
 
  2  
Fri 20 Nov, 2015 05:31 am
@Briancrc,
Predictions of the evolution of bacteria and their resistance to anti-biotics appear even more dire than they had just a few short years ago.

http://scienceblogs.com/mikethemadbiologist/2006/06/21/antibiotics-creationism-and-ev/

Quote:
So I have no idea how to sum this up, except to say if you still think antibiotic resistance follows a creationist ‘model’, then you’re an idiot.


http://abcnews.go.com/Health/report-highlights-concerns-antibiotic-resistant-superbugs-farm-animals/story?id=35283937
Leadfoot
 
  0  
Fri 20 Nov, 2015 05:45 am
@Briancrc,
Quote:
So I have no idea how to sum this up, except to say if you still think antibiotic resistance follows a creationist ‘model’, then you’re an idiot.
This position has always mystified me. Without a mechanism for surviving changing environmental conditions of every type, including biological, chemical, weather, etc; life forms as we know them would never have survived.

Why WOULDN'T a creator God have designed this feature into life? If he hadn't, HE would have been the idiot.
farmerman
 
  2  
Fri 20 Nov, 2015 05:54 am
@Leadfoot,
Then this creator has taken a qilly nilly approach in the development of lif on earth but has engineered "In" certain expressions that result in resistance (while at the same time the organism can often develop a semi lethal physical condition)

The fossil record is full of "throwaways " of organisms.
We use these as "tools"for exploration .
farmerman
 
  2  
Fri 20 Nov, 2015 05:58 am
@Leadfoot,
There is ascientific pushback on the word "functional" . It seems that a major event of determining whether the 80% number is factual or local. The interspecies ENCODE is underway to look at genomes of drosophila and musca to wee what strands were functional and on what means.



Quote:
Although the consortium claims they are far from finished with the ENCODE project, many reactions to the published papers and the news coverage that accompanied the release were favorable. The Nature editors and ENCODE authors "... collaborated over many months to make the biggest splash possible and capture the attention of not only the research community but also of the public at large". The ENCODE project's claim that 80% of the human genome has biochemical function was rapidly picked up by the popular press who described the results of the project as leading to the death of junk DNA
However the conclusion that most of the genome is "functional" has been criticized on the grounds that ENCODE project used a liberal definition of "functional", namely anything that is transcribed must be functional. This conclusion was arrived at despite the widely accepted view, based on genomic conservation estimates from comparative genomics, that many DNA elements such as pseudogenes that are transcribed are nevertheless non-functional . Furthermore the ENCODE project has emphasized sensitivity over specificity leading possibly to the detection of many false positives.Somewhat arbitrary choice of cell lines and transcription factors as well as lack of appropriate control experiments were additional major criticisms of ENCODE as random DNA mimics ENCODE-like 'functional' behavior.
In response to some of the criticisms, other scientists argued that the wide spread transcription and splicing that is observed in the human genome directly by biochemcial testing is a more accurate indicator of genetic function than genomic conservation estimates because conservation estimates are all relative and difficult to align due to incredible variations in genome sizes of even closely related species, it is partially tautological, and these estimates are not based on direct testing for functionality on the genome.
Conservation estimates may be used to provide clues to identify possible functional elements in the genome, but it does not limit or cap the total amount of functional elements that could possibly exist in the genome. Furthermore, much of the genome that is being disputed by critics seems to be involved in epigenetic regulation such as gene expression and appears to be necessary for the development of complex organisms. The ENCODE results were not necessarily unexpected since increases in attributions of functionality were foreshadowed by previous decades of research.
Additionally, others have noted that the ENCODE project from the very beginning had a scope that was based on seeking biomedically relevant functional elements in the genome not evolutionary functional elements, which are not necessarily the same thing since evolutionary selection is neither sufficient nor necessary to establish a function. It is a very useful proxy to relevant functions, but an imperfect one and not the only one.



SCience is never a "there thats it , we are done" Initial publications ere based upon specific efinitions and Im amazed that the "pseudogenes" were functional by the study"s own definition. Yet they readily stipulate to the "evolutionarily constrained" genes had to be "shut off" by some means because weve long known (as a parallel activity) the very function that a whole boatload of genes maintain.
Read up about how vitamin C is no longer mwtabolically produced by bats , primates, and guinea pigs.

Im anticipting the entire outgrowth of this study and the interspcies ones. Jut like the "Dinosur soft tissue" discovery mwrely gqve us a new method of fossiliztion, the ENCODE legacy will probably help to define the word "functional"

Leadfoot
 
  -1  
Fri 20 Nov, 2015 06:40 am
@farmerman,
Quote:

Then this creator has taken a qilly nilly approach in the development of lif on earth but has engineered "In" certain expressions that result in resistance (while at the same time the organism can often develop a semi lethal physical condition)
And many 'fully lethal' ones. Like science, I don't have all the answers either.
Quote:

The fossil record is full of "throwaways " of organisms.
We use these as "tools"for exploration .

We are all throwaway organisms. Why is death pre-programmed?
Maybe as a tool for exploration.
Leadfoot
 
  0  
Fri 20 Nov, 2015 06:57 am
@farmerman,
Re: ENCODE % of function findings.

As you pointed out, the results get criticized from both directions, just as you have now (I think) argued from both sides.

Can't remember the paper right now but function was also attempted to be defined by experiments where genes were removed one at a time to see if there were detrimental effects on offspring. The results were that even MORE looked non-functional to the point where it didn't make any sense. They eventually found that two or more (with no known relationship) had to be removed to have an effect. The mathmatical permutations of that made a complete study by that method impractical.
FBM
 
  1  
Fri 20 Nov, 2015 08:25 am
http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb192/DinahFyre/12227063_1164100256951123_3793250118993700903_n.jpg
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Fri 20 Nov, 2015 08:31 am
@FBM,
I'm really sorry you haven't found a use for your nipples man...
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Fri 20 Nov, 2015 08:39 am
@Leadfoot,
Quote:
And many 'fully lethal' ones
Thats called extinction.

Quote:
We are all throwaway organisms. Why is death pre-programmed?
Maybe as a tool for exploration.
.Once again, please explain where youre going here with this?
farmerman
 
  1  
Fri 20 Nov, 2015 08:48 am
@Leadfoot,
Quote:
just as you have now (I think) argued from both sides
. NO, Ive been consistent. Dont confuse my disrespect for what someone like Dawkins uses in his ad-hominems as agreement with your pov.

He stilll makes cogent scientific arguments . The Creationists merely are latching onto his style and confusing that with misinformation.

I get a kick out of Creation "science" in that they are quick to jump on and bandwagon things of which they really have little understanding

These have included

1Soft tissue found in fossils means that the fossil is "young"

2"Neutral theory discounts mot of nturl selection (qwhen it was DAwrin himself that posed the concept)

3"function" of genes preclude evolution.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Fri 20 Nov, 2015 08:49 am
@FBM,
There is always an alternative explaination.
Quote:
The decrease of size of the mandible isn't necessarily evolutionary. A hard diet increases the growth of the mandible.

the human diet has gone softer during its history.

This isn't necessarily an example of selection.


Leadfoot
 
  1  
Fri 20 Nov, 2015 08:58 am
@farmerman,
Quote:
Dont confuse my disrespect for what someone like Dawkins uses in his ad-hominems as agreement with your pov.
No No, that's not where I was going to or coming from. The Dawkins stuff on DNA was just serendipitous. It just appeared that you sometimes argue from both sides of the functional % of DNA argument. I could have misunderstood.

Likewise, don't link my ID views with all Creationist arguments and I won't saddle you with all of Dawkins.
0 Replies
 
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Fri 20 Nov, 2015 09:12 am
@farmerman,
Quote:

Leadfoot Quote:
"We are all throwaway organisms. Why is death pre-programmed?
Maybe as a tool for exploration."

.Once again, please explain where youre going here with this?
OK, but I might have to get all theological on you (or emotional as FBM calls it).

Since the causes of DNA degeneration (telomere degrading & such) seem so relatively simple (I doubt it really is) it seems odd that evolution hasn't found a way to eliminate aging or at least significantly extend lifespan.

But assuming ID, a limited lifespan could be a useful tool for encouraging exploration of some deeper meaning to life rather than an endless cycle of 'wake up, work/play, eat, sleep, repeat ad infinitum.'
parados
 
  4  
Fri 20 Nov, 2015 11:36 am
@Leadfoot,
One could make the reverse argument. Since the causes of DNA degeneration seem so relatively simple it seems odd that a designer would have let it happen and not fixed the problem. Not a very good design if that is the case.

Under evolution a limited lifespan serves a purpose of recycling raw materials and survival of the fittest would result in older organisms being less likely to survive. There is no reason for evolution to support the survival of older organisms since many older organisms no longer reproduce.

Nothing quite like making assumptions to support a conclusion, is there?
0 Replies
 
FBM
 
  1  
Fri 20 Nov, 2015 04:27 pm
@Leadfoot,
Leadfoot wrote:

There is always an alternative explaination.
Quote:
The decrease of size of the mandible isn't necessarily evolutionary. A hard diet increases the growth of the mandible.

the human diet has gone softer during its history.

This isn't necessarily an example of selection.



False dichotomy "explaination."
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Fri 20 Nov, 2015 09:19 pm
@FBM,
But more importantly, have you found a use for your nipples yet?
0 Replies
 
 

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