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Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

 
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Sat 11 Jun, 2005 04:49 am
Re: Time Magazine: When Life Exploded
cmellon wrote:
Read this article dated back in 1996.

If you want to read from official time magazine website, you must be a member, since it's article in the past edition. But if you want to read from other sources, try:

http://www.mc.maricopa.edu/dept/d10/asb/anthro2003/origins/life_explosion.html

The subject of macroevolution has been a subject of debate for long. Macroevolution is never scientific, microevolution is scientific. You must be able to prove it in the lab to be called scientific. Macroevolution can't be proven in the lab.

Since the article from Time, macroevolution has been viewed differently. Stephen Jay Gould, one prominent scientists, proposed a theory called "punctuated equilibria", whereby species don't evolve over a long period of time (Darwinism macroevolution view), but rather make a sudden changes. He said that new species appears all at once and "fully formed."

1. I challenge your assertion that things that can't be simulated in a lab can never be scientific. Anything which is studied according to the rules of dispassionate logic and evidence can be scientific. According to you, astronomy is not a science.

2. However, I dispute the idea that it cannot be studied in a lab. The fact is that when anything regarding evolution is studied in a lab, such as the observable evolution of species with short generations, you simply lable it microevolution, and declare that it has no relation to things that take too long to be studied in a lab.

Evolution is sufficiently certain to be scientific fact, and your real objection is that it contradicts your religion.
0 Replies
 
cmellon
 
  1  
Sat 11 Jun, 2005 10:13 am
I am not trying to convince anyone to adopt any religion at all. Anyone is free to not believe in anything, whether it's God or science.

What I am saying is there is also evidence that proves macroevolutionary according to Darwinism point of view is not happening. Alternatively, one can try to adopt the punctuate equilibiria theory or one could also adopt any other theory.
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Mon 13 Jun, 2005 09:12 am
There is an interesting editorial in today's Kansas City Star:
Quote:
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Mon 13 Jun, 2005 09:46 am
cmellon wrote:
I am not trying to convince anyone to adopt any religion at all. Anyone is free to not believe in anything, whether it's God or science.

What I am saying is there is also evidence that proves macroevolutionary according to Darwinism point of view is not happening. Alternatively, one can try to adopt the punctuate equilibiria theory or one could also adopt any other theory.

Evolution is verifiable in the lab by studying species with short generations, such as bacteria. Your solution to these proofs is to name them (macroevolution), and then declare without evidence that extensive changes cannot be accomplished the same way. What you like to call macroevolution and microevolution are the same phenomenon.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Mon 13 Jun, 2005 04:02 pm
cmellon sez
Quote:
What I am saying is there is also evidence that proves macroevolutionary according to Darwinism point of view is not happening. Alternatively, one can try to adopt the punctuate equilibiria theory or one could also adopt any other theory.



I would love to hear your "evidence" apparently Ive been working in a field for almost 30 years and apparently, under a great misunderstanding.If your evidence is from Answers in Genesis then you are merely accepting Safartis crowd of "Gross misquoters"
When the IDers discover that their own polished monkey, Mike Behe, is a firm supporter of evolution, they will have to do a 180.
0 Replies
 
cmellon
 
  1  
Mon 13 Jun, 2005 08:21 pm
farmerman wrote:
cmellon sez
Quote:
What I am saying is there is also evidence that proves macroevolutionary according to Darwinism point of view is not happening. Alternatively, one can try to adopt the punctuate equilibiria theory or one could also adopt any other theory.



I would love to hear your "evidence" apparently Ive been working in a field for almost 30 years and apparently, under a great misunderstanding.If your evidence is from Answers in Genesis then you are merely accepting Safartis crowd of "Gross misquoters"
When the IDers discover that their own polished monkey, Mike Behe, is a firm supporter of evolution, they will have to do a 180.



Hello, please read the article from Time dated back in the year of 1994 titled "When Life Exploded". The link is:
http://www.mc.maricopa.edu/dept/d10/asb/anthro2003/origins/life_explosion.html

If macroevolution did occur in a gradual manner through unbounded and cumulative microevolutionary changes, then transitions between life forms should appear in paleontological evidence as part of what the organism was in its original state and part of what it was becomeing as a new form of life.

The gradualist view predicts that a large class of intermediate or transitional fossils should be discovered in the fossil record. This prediction can be verified by producing fossil evidence of gradual transitions of relatively simple forms of life. For example, the fossil record should be filled with some type of combination of a fish in a transition stage as it is becoming an amphibian (say, fishibian) or a mixture of a reptile in transition as it is becoming a bird (say, reptibird).

But, according to the Time article, the first evidence of invertebrate animal life appears with startling and remarkable suddenness in the Cambrian period. Here's a quote from Time magazine:

"543 million years ago, in the early Cambrian, within the span of no more than 10 million years, creatures with teeth and tentacles and claws and jaws materialized with the suddenness of apparitions. In a burst of creativity like nothing before or since, nature appears to have sketched out the blueprints for virtually the whole of the animal kingdom. This explosion of biological diversity is described by scientists as biology's Big Bang. Discoveries of major fossil beds in Greenland, in China, in Siberia, and in Namibia have shown that the period of biological innovation occurred at virtually the same instant in geological time all around the world."

Stephen Jay Gould, Niles Eldredge, and Steven Stanley (paleontologist at John Hopkins University) have advocated new hypothesis to the theory of maroevolution. The theory is the following:

1. Stasis. Most species exhibit no directional change during their tenure on earth. They appear in the fossil record looking much the same as when they dissapear; morphological change is usually limited and directionless.

2. Sudden appearance. In any local area, a species does not gradually appear by the steady transformation of its ancestors; it appears all at once and fully formed.
0 Replies
 
cmellon
 
  1  
Mon 13 Jun, 2005 11:02 pm
Here is a complete article by Time Magazine.

TIME Magazine

December 4, 1995 Volume 146, No. 23



COVER STORY
WHEN LIFE EXPLODED
For billions of years, simple creatures like plankton, bacteria and algae ruled the earth. Then, suddenly, life got very complicated
BY J. MADELEINE NASH

An hour later and he might not have noticed the rock, much less stooped to pick it up. But the early morning sunlight slanting across the Namibian desert in southwestern Africa happened to illuminate momentarily some strange squiggles on a chunk of sandstone. At first Douglas Erwin, a paleobiologist at the Smithsonian Institution in Washington, wondered if the meandering markings might be dried-up curls of prehistoric sea mud. But no, he decided after studying the patterns for a while, these were burrows carved by a small, wormlike creature that arose in long-vanished subtropical seas--an archaic organism that, as Erwin later confirmed, lived about 550 million years ago, just before the geological period known as the Cambrian.

As such, the innocuous-seeming creature and its curvy spoor mark the threshold of a critical interlude in the history of life. For the Cambrian is a period distinguished by the abrupt appearance of an astonishing array of multicelled animals--animals that are the ancestors of virtually all the creatures that now swim, fly and crawl through the visible world.

Indeed, while most people cling to the notion that evolution works its magic over millions of years, scientists are realizing that biological change often occurs in sudden fits and starts. And none of those fitful starts was more dramatic, more productive or more mysterious than the one that occurred shortly after Erwin's wormlike creature slithered through the primordial seas. All around the world, in layers of rock just slightly younger than that Erwin discovered, scientists have found the mineralized remains of organisms that represent the emergence of nearly every major branch in the zoological tree. Among them: bristle worms and roundworms, lamp shells and mollusks, sea cucumbers and jellyfish, not to mention an endless parade of arthropods, those spindly legged, hard-shelled ancient cousins of crabs and lobsters, spiders and flies. There are even occasional glimpses--in rock laid down not long after Erwin's Namibian sandstone--of small, ribbony swimmers with a rodlike spine that are unprepossessing progenitors of the chordate line, which leads to fish, to amphibians and eventually to humans.

Where did this extraordinary bestiary come from, and why did it emerge so quickly? In recent years, no question has stirred the imagination of more evolutionary experts, spawned more novel theories or spurred more far-flung expeditions. Life has occupied the planet for nearly 4 billion of its 4.5 billion years. But until about 600 million years ago, there were no organisms more complex than bacteria, multicelled algae and single-celled plankton. The first hint of biological ferment was a plethora of mysterious palm-shape, frondlike creatures that vanished as inexplicably as they appeared. Then, 543 million years ago, in the early Cambrian, within the span of no more than 10 million years, creatures with teeth and tentacles and claws and jaws materialized with the suddenness of apparitions. In a burst of creativity like nothing before or since, nature appears to have sketched out the blueprints for virtually the whole of the animal kingdom. This explosion of biological diversity is described by scientists as biology's Big Bang.

Over the decades, evolutionary theorists beginning with Charles Darwin have tried to argue that the appearance of multicelled animals during the Cambrian merely seemed sudden, and in fact had been preceded by a lengthy period of evolution for which the geological record was missing. But this explanation, while it patched over a hole in an otherwise masterly theory, now seems increasingly unsatisfactory. Since 1987, discoveries of major fossil beds in Greenland, in China, in Siberia, and now in Namibia have shown that the period of biological innovation occurred at virtually the same instant in geologic time all around the world.

What could possibly have powered such a radical advance? Was it something in the organisms themselves or the environment in which they lived? Today an unprecedented effort to answer these questions is under way. Geologists and geochemists are reconstructing the Precambrian planet, looking for changes in the atmosphere and ocean that might have put evolution into sudden overdrive. Developmental biologists are teasing apart the genetic toolbox needed to assemble animals as disparate as worms and flies, mice and fish. And paleontologists are exploring deeper reaches of the fossil record, searching for organisms that might have primed the evolutionary pump. "We're getting data," says Harvard University paleontologist Andrew Knoll, "almost faster than we can digest it."

Every few weeks, it seems, a new piece of the puzzle falls into place. Just last month, in an article published by the journal Nature, an international team of scientists reported finding the exquisitely preserved remains of a 1-in.- to 2-in.-long animal that flourished in the Cambrian oceans 525 million years ago. From its flexible but sturdy spinal rod, the scientists deduced that this animal--dubbed Yunnanozoon lividum, after the Chinese province in which it was found--was a primitive chordate, the oldest ancestor yet discovered of the vertebrate branch of the animal kingdom, which includes Homo sapiens.

Even more tantalizing, paleontologists are gleaning insights into the enigmatic years that immediately preceded the Cambrian explosion. Until last spring, when John Grotzinger, a sedimentologist from M.I.T., led Erwin and two dozen other scientists on an expedition to the Namibian desert, this fateful period was obscured by a 20 million--year gap in the fossil record. But with the find in Namibia, as Grotzinger and three colleagues reported in the Oct. 27 issue of Science, the gap suddenly filled with complex life. In layer after layer of late Precambrian rock, heaved up in the rugged outcroppings the Namibians call kopfs (after the German word for "head"), Grotzinger's team has documented the existence of a flourishing biological community on the cusp of a startling transformation, a community in which small wormlike somethings, small shelly somethings--perhaps even large frondlike somethings--were in the process of crossing over a shadow line into uninhabited ecospace.

Here, then, are highlights from the tale that scientists are piecing together of a unique and dynamic time in the history of the earth, when continents were rifting apart, genetic programs were in flux, and tiny organisms in vast oceans dreamed of growing large.

THE WEIRD WONDERS

Inside locked cabinets at the Smithsonian Institution nestle snapshots in stone as vivid as any photograph. There, engraved on slices of ink-black shale, are the myriad inhabitants of a vanished world, from plump Aysheaia prancing on caterpillar-like legs to crafty Ottoia, lurking in a burrow and extending its predatory proboscis. Excavated in the early 1900s from a geological formation in the Canadian Rockies known as the Burgess Shale, these relics of the earliest animals to appear on earth are now revered as priceless treasures. Yet for half a century after their discovery, the Burgess Shale fossils attracted little scientific attention as researchers concentrated on creatures that were larger and easier to understand--like the dinosaurs that roamed the earth nearly 300 million years later.

Then, starting in the late 1960s, three paleontologists--Harry Whittington of the University of Cambridge in England and his two students, Derek Briggs and Simon Conway Morris--embarked on a methodical re-examination of the Burgess Shale fossils. Under bright lights and powerful microscopes, they coaxed fine-grain anatomical detail from the shale's stony secrets: the remains of small but substantial animals that were overtaken by a roaring underwater mudslide 515 million years ago and swept into water so deep and oxygen-free that the bacteria that should have decayed their tissues couldn't survive. Preserved were not just the hard-shelled creatures familiar to Darwin and his contemporaries but also the fossilized remains of soft-bodied beasts like Aysheaia and Ottoia. More astonishing still were remnants of delicate interior structures, like Ottoia's gut with its last, partly digested meal.

Soon, inspired reconstructions of the Cambrian bestiary began to create a stir at paleontological gatherings. Startled laughter greeted the unveiling of oddball Opabinia, with its five eyes and fire-hose-like proboscis. Credibility was strained by Hallucigenia, when Conway Morris depicted it as dancing along on needle-sharp legs, and also by Wiwaxia, a whimsical armored slug with two rows of upright scales. And then there was Anomalocaris, a fearsome predator that caught its victims with spiny appendages and crushed them between jaws that closed like the shutter of a camera. "Weird wonders," Harvard University paleontologist Stephen Jay Gould called them in his 1989 book, Wonderful Life, which celebrated the strangeness of the Burgess Shale animals.

But even as Wonderful Life was being published, the discovery of new Cambrian-era fossil beds in Sirius Passet, Greenland, and Yunnan, China, was stripping some of the weirdness from the wonders. Hallucigenia's impossibly pointed legs, for example, were unmasked as the upside-down spines of a prehistoric velvet worm. In similar fashion, Wiwaxia, some scientists think, is probably allied with living bristle worms. And the anomalocaridids--whose variety is rapidly expanding with further research--appear to be cousins, if not sisters, of the amazingly diverse arthropods.

The real marvel, says Conway Morris, is how familiar so many of these animals seem. For it was during the Cambrian (and perhaps only during the Cambrian) that nature invented the animal body plans that define the broad biological groupings known as phyla, which encompass everything from classes and orders to families, genera and species. For example, the chordate phylum includes mammals, birds and fish. The class Mammalia, in turn, covers the primate order, the hominid family, the genus Homo and our own species, Homo sapiens.

EVOLVING AT SUPERSONIC SPEED

Scientists used to think that the evolution of phyla took place over a period of 75 million years, and even that seemed impossibly short. Then two years ago, a group of researchers led by Grotzinger, Samuel Bowring from M.I.T. and Harvard's Knoll took this long-standing problem and escalated it into a crisis. First they recalibrated the geological clock, chopping the Cambrian period to about half its former length. Then they announced that the interval of major evolutionary innovation did not span the entire 30 million years, but rather was concentrated in the first third. "Fast," Harvard's Gould observes, "is now a lot faster than we thought, and that's extraordinarily interesting."

What Knoll, Grotzinger and colleagues had done was travel to a remote region of northeastern Siberia where millenniums of relentless erosion had uncovered a dramatic ledger of rock more than half a mile thick. In ancient seabeds near the mouth of the Lena River, they spotted numerous small, shelly fossils characteristic of the early Cambrian. Even better, they found cobbles of volcanic ash containing minuscule crystals of a mineral known as zircon, possibly the most sensitive timepiece nature has yet invented.

Zircon dating, which calculates a fossil's age by measuring the relative amounts of uranium and lead within the crystals, had been whittling away at the Cambrian for some time. By 1990, for example, new dates obtained from early Cambrian sites around the world were telescoping the start of biology's Big Bang from 600 million years ago to less than 560 million years ago. Now, with information based on the lead content of zircons from Siberia, virtually everyone agrees that the Cambrian started almost exactly 543 million years ago and, even more startling, that all but one of the phyla in the fossil record appeared within the first 5 million to 10 million years. "We now know how fast fast is," grins Bowring. "And what I like to ask my biologist friends is, How fast can evolution get before they start feeling uncomfortable?"

FREAKS OR ANCESTORS?

The key to the Cambrian explosion, researchers are now convinced, lies in the Vendian, the geological period that immediately preceded it. But because of the frustrating gap in the fossil record, efforts to explore this critical time interval have been hampered. For this reason, no one knows quite what to make of the singular frond-shape organisms that appeared tens of millions of years before the beginning of the Cambrian, then seemingly died out. Are these puzzling life-forms--which Yale University paleobiologist Adolf Seilacher dubbed the "vendobionts"--linked somehow to the creatures that appeared later on, or do they represent a totally separate chapter in the history of life?

Seilacher has energetically championed the latter explanation, speculating that the vendobionts represent a radically different architectural solution to the problem of growing large. These "creatures"--which reached an adult size of 3 ft. or more across--did not divide their bodies into cells, believes Seilacher, but into compartments so plumped with protoplasm that they resembled air mattresses. They appear to have had no predators, says Seilacher, and led a placid existence on the ocean floor, absorbing nutrients from seawater or manufacturing them with the help of symbiotic bacteria.

UCLA paleontologist Bruce Runnegar, however, disagrees with Seilacher. Runnegar argues that the fossil known as Ernietta, which resembles a pouch made of wide-wale corduroy, may be some sort of seaweed that generated food through photosynthesis. Charniodiscus, a frond with a disklike base, he classifies as a colonial cnidarian, the phylum that includes jellyfish, sea anemones and sea pens. And Dickinsonia, which appears to have a clearly segmented body, Runnegar tentatively places in an ancestral group that later gave rise to roundworms and arthropods. The Cambrian explosion did not erupt out of the blue, argues Runnegar. "It's the continuation of a process that began long before."

The debate between Runnegar and Seilacher is about to get even more heated. For, as pictures that accompany the Science article reveal, researchers have returned from Namibia with hard evidence that a diverse community of organisms flourished in the oceans at the end of the Vendian, just before nature was gripped by creative frenzy. Runnegar, for instance, is currently studying the fossil of a puzzling conical creature that appears to be an early sponge. M.I.T.'s Beverly Saylor is sorting through sandstones that contain a menagerie of small, shelly things, some shaped like wine goblets, others like miniature curtain rods. And Guy Narbonne of Queen's University in Ontario, Canada, is trying to make sense of Dickinsonia-like creatures found just beneath the layer of rock where the Cambrian officially begins.

What used to be a gap in the fossil record has turned out to be teeming with life, and this single, stunning insight into late-Precambrian ecology, believes Grotzinger, is bound to reframe the old argument over the vendobionts. For whether they are animal ancestors or evolutionary dead ends, says Grotzinger, Dickinsonia and its cousins can no longer be thought of as sideshow freaks. Along with the multitudes of small, shelly organisms and enigmatic burrowers that riddled the sea floor with tunnels and trails, the vendobionts have emerged as important clues to the Cambrian explosion. "We now know," says Grotzinger, "that evolution did not proceed in two unrelated pulses but in two pulses that beat together as one."

BREAKING THROUGH THE ALGAE

To human eyes, the world on the eve of the Cambrian explosion would have seemed an exceedingly hostile place. Tectonic forces unleashed huge earthquakes that broke continental land masses apart, then slammed them back together. Mountains the size of the Himalayas shot skyward, hurling avalanches of rock, sand and mud down their flanks. The climate was in turmoil. Great ice ages came and went as the chemistry of the atmosphere and oceans endured some of the most spectacular shifts in the planet's history. And in one way or another, says Knoll, these dramatic upheavals helped midwife complex animal life by infusing the primordial oceans with oxygen.

Without oxygen to aerate tissues and make vital structural components like collagen, notes Knoll, animals simply cannot grow large. But for most of earth's history, the production of oxygen through photosynthesis--the metabolic alchemy that allowed primordial algae to turn carbon dioxide, water and sunlight into energy-- was almost perfectly balanced by oxygen-depleting processes, especially organic decay. Indeed, the vast populations of algae that smothered the Precambrian oceans generated tons of vegetative debris, and as bacteria decomposed this slimy detritus, they performed photosynthesis in reverse, consuming oxygen and releasing carbon dioxide, the greenhouse gas that traps heat and helps warm the planet.

For oxygen to rise, then, the planet's burden of decaying organic matter had to decline. And around 600 million years ago, that appears to be what happened. The change is reflected in the chemical composition of rocks like limestone, which incorporate two isotopes of carbon in proportion to their abundance in seawater--carbon 12, which is preferentially taken up by algae during photosynthesis, and carbon 13, its slightly heavier cousin. By sampling ancient limestones, Knoll and his colleagues have determined that the ratio of carbon 12 to carbon 13 remained stable for most of the Proterozoic Eon, a boggling expanse of time that stretched from 2.5 billion years ago to the end of the Vendian. But at the close of the Proterozoic, just prior to the Cambrian explosion, they pick up a dramatic rise in carbon 13 levels, suggesting that carbon 12 in the form of organic material was being removed from the oceans.

One mechanism, speculates Knoll, could have been erosion from steep mountain slopes. Over time, he notes, tons of sediment and rock that poured into the sea could have buried algal remains that fell to the sea floor. In addition, he says, rifting continents very likely changed the geometry of ocean basins so that water could not circulate as vigorously as before. The organic carbon that fell to the sea floor, then, would have stayed there, never cycling back to the ocean surface and into the atmosphere. As levels of atmospheric carbon dioxide dropped, the earth would have cooled. Sure enough, says Knoll, a major ice age ensued around 600 million years ago--yet another link in a complex chain that connects geological and geochemical events to a momentous advance in biology.

Biology also influenced geochemistry, says Indiana University biochemist John Hayes. In fact, in a paper published in Nature earlier this year, Hayes and his colleagues argue that guts, those simple conduits that take food in at one end and expel wastes at the other, may be the key to the Cambrian explosion. Their reasoning goes something like this: animals grazed on the algae, packaging the leftover organic material into fecal pellets. These pellets dropped to the ocean depths, depriving oxygen-depleting bacteria of their principal food source. The evidence? Organic lipids in ancient rocks, notes Hayes, underwent a striking change in carbon-isotope ratios around 550 million years ago. Again, the change suggests that food sources rich in carbon 12, like algae, were being "express mailed" to the ocean floor.

THE GENETIC TOOL KIT

The animals that aerated the precambrian oceans could have resembled the wormlike something that left its meandering marks on the rock Erwin lugged back from Namibia. More advanced than a flatworm, which was not rigid enough to burrow through sand, this creature would have had a sturdy, fluid-filled body cavity. It would have had musculature capable of strong contractions. It probably had a heart, a well-defined head with an eye for sensing light and, last but not least, a gastrointestinal tract with an opening at each end. What kind of genetic machinery, Erwin wondered, did nature need in order to patch together such a creature?

Over the summer, Erwin pondered this problem with two paleontologist friends, David Jablonski of the University of Chicago and James Valentine of the University of California, Berkeley. Primitive multicelled organisms like jellyfish, they reasoned, have three so-called homeotic homeobox genes, or Hox genes, which serve as the master controllers of embryonic development. Flatworms have four, arthropods like fruit flies have eight, and the primitive chordate Branchiostoma (formerly known as Amphioxus) has 10. So around 550 million years ago, Erwin and the others believe, some wormlike creature expanded its Hox cluster, bringing the number of genes up to six. Then, "Boom!" shouts Jablonski. "At that point, perhaps, life crossed some sort of critical threshold." Result: the Cambrian explosion.

The proliferation of wildly varying body plans during the Cambrian, scientists reason, therefore must have something to do with Hox genes. But what? To find out, developmental biologist Sean Carroll's lab on the University of Wisconsin's Madison campus has begun importing tiny velvet worms that inhabit rotting logs in the dry forests of Australia. Blowing bubbles of spittle and waving their fat legs in the air, they look, he marvels, virtually identical to their Cambrian cousin Aysheaia, whose evocative portrait appears in the pages of the Burgess Shale. Soon Carroll hopes to answer a pivotal question: Is the genetic tool kit needed to construct a velvet worm smaller than the one the arthropods use? Already Carroll suspects that the Cambrian explosion was powered by more than a simple expansion in the number of Hox genes. Far more important, he believes, were changes in the vast regulatory networks that link each Hox gene to hundreds of other genes. Think of these genes, suggests Carroll, as the chips that run a computer. The Cambrian explosion, then, may mark not the invention of new hardware, but rather the elaboration of new software that allowed existing genes to perform new tricks. Unusual-looking arthropods, for example, might be cobbled together through variations of the genetic software that codes for legs. "Arthropods," observes paleoentomologist Jarmila Kukalova-Peck of Canada's Carleton University, "are all legs"--including the "legs" that evolved into jaws, claws and even sex organs.

BEYOND DARWINISM

Of course, understanding what made the Cambrian explosion possible doesn't address the larger question of what made it happen so fast. Here scientists delicately slide across data-thin ice, suggesting scenarios that are based on intuition rather than solid evidence. One favorite is the so-called empty barrel, or open spaces, hypothesis, which compares the Cambrian organisms to homesteaders on the prairies. The biosphere in which the Cambrian explosion occurred, in other words, was like the American West, a huge tract of vacant property that suddenly opened up for settlement. After the initial land rush subsided, it became more and more difficult for naive newcomers to establish footholds.

Predation is another popular explanation. Once multicelled grazers appeared, say paleontologists, it was only a matter of time before multicelled predators evolved to eat them. And, right on cue, the first signs of predation appear in the fossil record exactly at the transition between the Vendian and the Cambrian, in the form of bore holes drilled through shelly organisms that resemble stacks of miniature ice-cream cones. Seilacher, among others, speculates that the appearance of protective shells and hard, sharp parts in the late Precambrian signaled the start of a biological arms race that did in the poor, defenseless vendobionts.

Even more speculative are scientists' attempts to address the flip side of the Cambrian mystery: why this evolutionary burst, so stunning in speed and scope, has never been equaled. With just one possible exception--the Bryozoa, whose first traces turn up shortly after the Cambrian--there is no record of new phyla emerging later on, not even in the wake of the mass extinction that occurred 250 million years ago, at the end of the Permian period.

Why no new phyla? Some scientists suggest that the evolutionary barrel still contained plenty of organisms that could quickly diversify and fill all available ecological niches. Others, however, believe that in the surviving organisms, the genetic software that controls early development had become too inflexible to create new life-forms after the Permian extinction. The intricate networks of developmental genes were not so rigid as to forbid elaborate tinkering with details; otherwise, marvels like winged flight and the human brain could never have arisen. But very early on, some developmental biologists believe, the linkages between multiple genes made it difficult to change important features without lethal effect. "There must be limits to change," says Indiana University developmental biologist Rudolf Raff. "After all, we've had these same old body plans for half a billion years."

The more scientists struggle to explain the Cambrian explosion, the more singular it seems. And just as the peculiar behavior of light forced physicists to conclude that Newton's laws were incomplete, so the Cambrian explosion has caused experts to wonder if the twin Darwinian imperatives of genetic variation and natural selection provide an adequate framework for understanding evolution. "What Darwin described in the Origin of Species," observes Queen's University paleontologist Narbonne, "was the steady background kind of evolution. But there also seems to be a non-Darwinian kind of evolution that functions over extremely short time periods--and that's where all the action is."

In a new book, At Home in the Universe (Oxford University Press; $25), theoretical biologist Stuart Kauffman of the Santa Fe Institute argues that underlying the creative commotion during the Cambrian are laws that we have only dimly glimpsed--laws that govern not just biological evolution but also the evolution of physical, chemical and technological systems. The fanciful animals that first appeared on nature's sketchpad remind Kauffman of early bicycles, with their odd-size wheels and strangely angled handlebars. "Soon after a major innovation," he writes, "discovery of profoundly different variations is easy. Later innovation is limited to modest improvements on increasingly optimized designs."

Biological evolution, says Kauffman, is just one example of a self-organizing system that teeter-totters on the knife edge between order and chaos, "a grand compromise between structure and surprise." Too much order makes change impossible; too much chaos and there can be no continuity. But since balancing acts are necessarily precarious, even the most adroit tightrope walkers sometimes make one move too many. Mass extinctions, chaos theory suggests, do not require comets or volcanoes to trigger them. They arise naturally from the intrinsic instability of the evolving system, and superior fitness provides no safety net.

In fact, some of prehistory's worst mass extinctions took place during the Cambrian itself, and they probably occurred for no obvious reason. Rather, just as the tiniest touch can cause a steeply angled sand pile to slide, so may a small evolutionary advance that gives one species a temporary advantage over another be enough to bring down an entire ecosystem. "These patterns of speciations and extinctions, avalanching across ecosystems and time," warns Kauffman, are to be found in every chaotic system--human and biological. "We are all part of the same pageant," as he puts it. Thus, even in this technological age, we may have more in common than we care to believe with the weird--and ultimately doomed--wonders that radiated so hopefully out of the Cambrian explosion.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Tue 14 Jun, 2005 07:22 am
The Time article was taken from a more scholarly piece that used the "Cambrian Explosion" Hypothesis as a "strawman". Very few paleontologists actually believe in it since it is confuted by the evidence.
The Cambrian base is
1 Circular in reasoning since it has been defined as the basal unit from its type section in UK where the first "hard part' fossils were found. This is a bit of "self reinforcement"

2 There are plenty of "Vendian" fossils that cast doubt on your hyperbole (teeth and jaws, cmon)
Tribrachidium is a trilaterally symmetric fossil that presages all pentamerids and corals

Charnia was a huge fossil over 1 meter in length (probably an annelid)

Sprigginia-A pre Cambrian arthropod, similar to trilobites

Dickinsonia, a polychaete

Pteridinium -an "ichno" fossil that shows legs were already formed

As Gould himself said
"I dont know a single paleontologist whod ever have formulated a "Cambrian Explosion Hypothesis" if only because the claim makes no logical sense and can easily be disposed by the vast amounts of evidence of Pre Cambrian life"

As far as Gould and Eldredges "Punctuated Equilibrium" hypothesis, it was a big deal when they proposed it in 1972. Weve since gone back and resampled some of the beds that Gould and Eldredge used to support their hypothesis, and found indeed, that intermediate forms do exist in there.
The Creationists have latched onto Punctuated Equilibriumand "Cambrian Explosions" as , somehow validating their positions. Of course , scientists keep introducing and testing new ideas as healthy debate in addressing systematics and mechanisms. The Creationists , without any work on their side, merely quote the scientific literature out of context in order to sew doubt among the general readers.
Gould , in one of his essays back in 1996 had stated that.
"since we proposed punctuated equilibrium, it is infuriating to be quoted again and again by Creationists-whether through design or stupidity, i do not know-as admitting that the fossil record includes no transitional forms. Transitional forms are usually lacking at the species level, but are quite abundant at higher groups..." (Evolution as Fact and Theory-1994)
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Wed 22 Jun, 2005 10:00 am
PENNSYLVANIA UPDATE
The federal court case involving the Dover school board's decision to teach intelligent design in science classes will not come to trial until September. However, some state legislators are trying to make such curricula legal under Pennsylvania state law. A proposed bill was debated yesterday.
Quote:
House looks at intelligent design
By RICHARD FELLINGER
Evening Sun Harrisburg Bureau
Lawmakers studied a controversial bill Monday to allow any Pennsylvania school to teach intelligent design, the alternative to the theory of evolution that has divided the Dover Area School District.
The House Subcommittee on Basic Education heard four hours of testimony from a seven-member panel that offered mixed views on the bill from state Rep. Tom Creighton (R-Lancaster).
Creighton's bill would insert the concept of intelligent design, which is the idea that life is so complex it must have been created by an intelligent designer, into the Public School Code. The state's current education standards don't prevent school districts from teaching alternatives to evolutionary theory, but they do not specify that districts may do so.
Two college professors, a Kansas City attorney and a recent high school graduate from Lehigh County, argued for the bill Monday.
One college professor, the American Civil Liberties Union and Americans United for the Separation of Church and State opposed it. The ACLU has joined 11 parents who are suing the Dover district over its decision to add intelligent design to its biology curriculum.
************************************
Rep. Ron Miller (R-Jacobus), a member of the subcommittee, predicted the bill will stay bottled up in committee because of pressure from critics who say the bill is an attempt to introduce religion in science class.
Even so, Miller said he could support the bill with certain changes. He is interested in changes proposed Monday by Kansas City lawyer John Calvert, a supporter of intelligent design and managing director of the Intelligent Design Network.
Calvert suggested amending the bill to clarify the definition of intelligent design and state that districts can teach criticism of evolutionary theory. Miller believes the changes would ensure that intelligent design is not about teaching religion.
The bill's critics and supporters disagreed Monday on whether intelligent design is a religious movement.
Janice Rael, president of the Delaware Valley Chapter of Americans United for Separation of Church and State, said proponents of intelligent design "are activists who are struggling to impose their particular religious viewpoint on us all."
Randy Bennett, associate professor of biology at Juniata College in Huntingdon, said intelligent design can't be tested and doesn't belong in the science curriculum. He said it has gathered momentum as a conservative political and religious movement.
Larry Frankel, legislative director for the ACLU of Pennsylvania, said courts have ruled that the U.S. Constitution does not allow teaching of religious doctrine in science classes. But Frankel said intelligent design could have a place in courses on philosophy or comparative religion.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Wed 22 Jun, 2005 10:13 am
Re: Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?
wandeljw wrote:
Is intelligent design theory a valid scientific alternative to evolutionary theory or is it only a religious view?

Intelligent design is the newest stage in the evolution of creationist theories that have a chance of circumventing the First Amendment. It achieves this purpose by carefully avoiding any speculation of who the intelligent designer might be.

wandeljw wrote:
Is there a consensus in the scientific community one way or the other on this issue?

For all practical purposes, there is a consensus that it's not a scientific theory. Among other flaws, its killer flaw is that it makes no refutable predictions.
0 Replies
 
Ethel2
 
  1  
Wed 22 Jun, 2005 10:25 am
Quote:
For all practical purposes, there is a consensus that it's not a scientific theory. Among other flaws, its killer flaw is that it makes no refutable predictions.


Always a killer flaw in Science. If it can't be replicated, it can't be considered proof.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Wed 22 Jun, 2005 10:37 am
farmerman wrote:
Quite the opposite, the emboldened minority of Evangelicals and their "science" institutes (I quote the term because we are still, if youd believe the ICR and Discovery, debating atomic clocks and universal gravitation and , ultimately "c"), these minorities WANT the government to intercede on their behalfs to decree that science must be governed , not by "the scientific method" but by " authoriy without inspection".

It is true that activists for "intelligent design" are a small minority, as are activists for any other cause. But according to pollingreport.com, a majority of the US population actually wants creationism to be taught alongside with evolution in public schools. The majority appears to be substantial and stable, so this creates a genuine conflict of goals for American liberals. They believe that a) schools ought to be run by the government, b) government policies ought to be controlled by democratic majority vote and c) science classes ought never teach junk science. But given current public opinion, they can't have all three things at the same time. Something has to give -- which is it? Í am not a liberal, but can still remember being one. Keeping b) and c) would have been much more important to my 20 year old self than keeping a).
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Wed 22 Jun, 2005 11:10 am
Thomas wrote:
according to pollingreport.com a majority of the US population actually wants creationism to be taught alongside with evolution in public schools.


Thomas, you may be misunderstanding the poll results.

The first question was worded: "Would you generally favor or oppose teaching creation along with evolution in public schools?" 65% were in favor.

The second question in the same poll was worded: "Would you generally favor or oppose teaching creationism instead of evolution in public schools?" Only 37% were in favor when the question was worded this way.

The different responses can be explained by the fact that people do not want creation taught as science. The first question did not specify whether creation would be taught in science class. Although Americans do not mind having creation taught in a philosophy or comparative religion class, the majority do not want it to be taught as science!

The first question in the poll refers to teaching "creation". The second question refers to teaching "creationism". This is an important distinction. The majority rejected "creationism". Creationism is not only bad science, but also bad religion.
0 Replies
 
Ethel2
 
  1  
Wed 22 Jun, 2005 01:25 pm
farmerman wrote:
Quote:
2 There are plenty of "Vendian" fossils that cast doubt on your hyperbole (teeth and jaws, cmon)
Tribrachidium is a trilaterally symmetric fossil that presages all pentamerids and corals



As Dawkins points out here"

Quote:
. . . The standard methodology of creationists is to find some phenomenon in nature which Darwinism cannot readily explain. Darwin said: "If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down." Creationists mine ignorance and uncertainty in order to abuse his challenge


and

Quote:
. . . Many evolutionary transitions are elegantly documented by more or less continuous series of changing intermediate fossils. Some are not, and these are the famous "gaps". Michael Shermer has wittily pointed out that if a new fossil discovery neatly bisects a "gap", the creationist will declare that there are now two gaps! Note yet again the use of a default. If there are no fossils to document a postulated evolutionary transition, the assumption is that there was no evolutionary transition: God must have intervened.

The creationists' fondness for "gaps" in the fossil record is a metaphor for their love of gaps in knowledge generally. Gaps, by default, are filled by God. . . .


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,592-1619264,00.html


farmerman wrote:
Quote:
The Creationists have latched onto Punctuated Equilibriumand "Cambrian Explosions" as , somehow validating their positions. Of course , scientists keep introducing and testing new ideas as healthy debate in addressing systematics and mechanisms. The Creationists , without any work on their side, merely quote the scientific literature out of context in order to sew doubt among the general readers.
Gould , in one of his essays back in 1996 had stated that.
"since we proposed punctuated equilibrium, it is infuriating to be quoted again and again by Creationists-whether through design or stupidity, i do not know-as admitting that the fossil record includes no transitional forms. Transitional forms are usually lacking at the species level, but are quite abundant at higher groups..." (Evolution as Fact and Theory-1994)


In an interview by Gordy Slack, Dawkins says:

Quote:
. . . There are clues from the distribution of DNA codes throughout the animal and plant kingdoms, of protein sequences, of morphological characters that have been analyzed in great detail. Everything fits with the idea that we have here a simple branching tree. The distribution of species on islands and continents throughout the world is exactly what you'd expect if evolution was a fact. The distribution of fossils in space and in time are exactly what you would expect if evolution were a fact. There are millions of facts all pointing in the same direction and no facts pointing in the wrong direction.

British scientist J.B.S. Haldane, when asked what would constitute evidence against evolution, famously said, "Fossil rabbits in the Precambrian." They've never been found. Nothing like that has ever been found. Evolution could be disproved by such facts. But all the fossils that have been found are in the right place. Of course there are plenty of gaps in the fossil record. There's nothing wrong with that. Why shouldn't there be? We're lucky to have fossils at all. But no fossils have been found in the wrong place, such as to disprove the fact of evolution. Evolution is a fact.


http://quackfiles.blogspot.com/2005/05/atheist-interview-with-richard-dawkins.html
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Wed 22 Jun, 2005 02:16 pm
wandeljw wrote:
Thomas, you may be misunderstanding the poll results. [...]

The different responses can be explained by the fact that people do not want creation taught as science. The first question did not specify whether creation would be taught in science class. Although Americans do not mind having creation taught in a philosophy or comparative religion class, the majority do not want it to be taught as science!

I have no way of rigorously refuting your reading of the poll results, but I think it reflects wishful thinking on your part. The suggestions, creationism "along with" or "instead of" evolution, clearly suggest to me that the question is about teaching creationism in the same setting as evolution. (Meaning science class.) Your suggestion, that this question is about creationism being taught in philosophy classes and such, is compatible with the "along with" question, but would make nonsense of the "instead of" question.

With some variations depending on the pollster, about a third of the respondents feel confident enough about creationism that they find evolution isn't worth teaching at all. Two thirds are sure enough about creationism, or doubtful enough about evolution, to teach them both. And one third is sure enough about evolution that they don't find creationism worth teaching. Unfortunately, I see no basis for your reading that the majority rejected creationism.
0 Replies
 
Ethel2
 
  1  
Wed 22 Jun, 2005 02:29 pm
Thomas wrote:
wandeljw wrote:
Thomas, you may be misunderstanding the poll results. [...]

The different responses can be explained by the fact that people do not want creation taught as science. The first question did not specify whether creation would be taught in science class. Although Americans do not mind having creation taught in a philosophy or comparative religion class, the majority do not want it to be taught as science!

I have no way of rigorously refuting your reading of the poll results, but I think it reflects wishful thinking on your part. The suggestions, creationism "along with" or "instead of" evolution, clearly suggest to me that the question is about teaching creationism in the same setting as evolution. (Meaning science class.) With some variations depending on the pollster, about a third of the respondents feel confident enough about creationism that they find evolution isn't worth teaching at all. Two thirds are sure enough about creationism, or doubtful enough about evolution, to teach them both. And one third is sure enough about evolution that they don't find creationism worth teaching. Unfortunately, I see no basis for your reading that the majority rejected creationism.


Once again, Thomas we agree. Sadly, the radical conservatives have done an excellent job in the propaganda wars. There are many well meaning people who have been convinced.
0 Replies
 
Ethel2
 
  1  
Wed 22 Jun, 2005 02:37 pm
This is a bit long, but I highlighted for those who don't want to read it all. It's relevance makes it worth it, I think. I wish the author hadn't resorted to his "IDiocy" joke. It hurts his cause. But I can understand the frustration well enough to forgive him. Still his points would have been stronger had he resisted.

link here

The Wedge
A book published nearly a year ago is, I think, essential reading for anyone interested in the details of how a modern day cultural crusade gets successfully conducted. The book is Creationism's Trojan Horse: The Wedge of Intelligent Design and its obstensible subject is, of course, the religious right's extensive efforts to get "Intelligent Design" (which I call IDiocy) a respected place in the public discourse. As important as this subject is by itself, what makes this book a must read is that it provides useful insight into how the right carefully picks an issue, defines its parameters, and then methodically constructs a public relations blitzkrieg in which no detail is too small, no angle missed, and no quarter taken.

The strategy used by the IDiots is nearly identical to that used by the right with other causes. What is unique, however, and what makes Creationism's Trojan Horse so valuable for anyone interested in confronting the right, is that it provides useful insight into how the right carefully picks an issue, defines its parameters, and then methodically constructs a public relations blitzkrieg in which no detail is too small, no angle missed, and no quarter taken.

Typically, the rightwing micro-strategizing is secret; the public only sees the final result, for example in the fine-tuned rhetoric of the anti-abortion movement, or the marketing of the Bush/Iraq war ("Well, would you rather have Saddam still in power?"). However, as the "Intelligent Design" effort was developed, the prime movers were either unable, or didn't bother, to cover their tracks. The meticulousness of the assault is simply astounding.


And let's not forget that the cause of the IDiots is intellectual, abstruse, abstract. The care and attention paid to the advocacy of an idea as opposed to a concrete action is impressive. As is the passion they've managed to generate over something as obscure as speciation development.

In summary, Creationism's Trojan Horse informs us that:

1. There is no science - none - behind the assertions of "Intelligent Design" advocates. Nor have the main proponents of IDiocy published any scientific research in support of their positions in any peer-reviewed journals.*

2. "Intelligent Design" advocates are simply "creationists in cheap tuxedos," who say one thing when they need to appear "scientific," and another when they are addressing religious groups.

3. The "Intelligent Design" movement is extremely well-funded by, among others, wealthy "christian reconstructionists" who are openly working for the establishment of an American theocratic state.

4. The hub of IDiocy is the CRSC, the self-styled "Center for the Renewal of Science and Culture" within the Discovery Institute, a right wing think tank at which, among others, Dick Cheney has spoken.

5. About 6 years ago, the CRSC created a document called The Wedge Strategy which outlined a comprehensive 5 year strategy to advance the cause of IDiocy. "Scientific," educational, legislative, legal, cultural, and marketing goals were laid out in detail.

6. To date, there is no well-funded, well-organized counter-strategy to confront IDiocy.

7. The efforts to advance the implement The Wedge Strategy and advance the cause of "Intelligent Design" have been phenomenally successful (except in actual science), far more than those who should be concerned about it realize.

The Wedge Strategy describes 3 phases -

Phase I. Scientific Research [sic], Writing & Publicity

Phase II. Publicity & Opinion-making

Phase III. Cultural Confrontation & Renewal

But they only really care about Phases II and III; ie, the marketing of "Intelligent Design." And in the service of that marketing, the authors of the book cite numerous documents which attest to the indefatigable enthusiasm and obsessive attention to detail the IDiots possess.

The first step was rhetorical. They eliminated all the normal frames and definitions of science and created new ones that gave them an argumentative advantage.** For example, IDiots redefined science to include two different possible approaches - "methodological naturalism" and "theistic realism." And so, evolution can be recast as "Darwinism," a "naturalist" theory while "Intelligent Design" is an example of "realist" theory.

With evolution now defined as "non-realist," it becomes easy to assert that "Intelligent Design" deserves at least equal status. And so they have.

The IDiots' assault on the discourse of science has been thorough, even encylopedic. We encounter notions like "Irreducible Complexity" or "Complex Specified Information" and the impressive acronyms they spawn. it's all nonsense, but they don't give a hoot because, in the words of the inventor of "methodological naturalism: "My goal is not so much to win the argument as to legitimate it as part of the dialogue.And increasingly in the public's eye, it seems that they have.

To "legitimate" IDiocy, they have polished their sophistries to a fine sheen and used them not only to undermine the public discourse on science but also everywhere else in their strategy. Here's one example:

One day before the senate was to vote on the "Better Education For Students and Teachers Act," Senator Rick Santorum, he of "man on dog" fame, introduced an amendment conducive to IDiocy. He said it addressed "the subject of intellectual freedom." The language was so perfectly crafted that it bamboozled even the streetwise Ted Kennedy, who spoke in favor of it as did Robert Byrd. The amendment passed 91-8. And the IDiots pounced immediately, writing schoolboards requesting (ie demanding) that "Intelligent Design" get equal time in science classrooms. Once Santorum's snotty little ruse was exposed for what it was, it was deleted and the language inserted into some less prominent "Joint Explanatory Statement" but it was too late. The IDiots still refer to the Santorum Amendment when advancing their case.

A few words on the phrase "intellectual freedom." Just as leftover duck's feet get sold as Dim Sum, nothing is ever wasted in "Intelligent Design" advocacy. Having invented the concept that the teaching of IDiocy is about "intellectual freedom," IDiot lawyers have been trained to sue school boards, claiming First Amendment infringement if IDiocy is excluded from science classes.

Creationism's Trojan Horse has numerous other examples and many references to the planning documents of the IDiots. In addition to the rhetorical examples, you can also trace the development of the "victimization" theme so prevalent on the right ("They won't let us teach alternate scientific theories" is all of a piece with "What about white people's rights?" Or little Ben's book title, "It's my country, too"). But with "Intelligent Design," the rightwing had to explain so much about how they were going to wreck science that we can see all the cogs and wheels come into place and start to spin.

While the story is a grim one (terrifying for those of us who care passionately about our children and good science), there is reason for hope. A careful reader can treat the marketing documents of the IDiots as an instruction manual: s/hewill learn how to successfully market, publicize, and proslyetize a complex, abstract idea. Two can play at this game given enough money, effort, and the conviction that the game is worth playing.[/B]

IDiocy can be beaten back to the margins of American culture, where it belongs. Besides, what's the alternative? In The Wedge Strategy , the IDiots make it perfectly clear what they're doing and what their ultimate goal is:

Discovery Institute's Center for the Renewal of Science and Culture seeks nothing less than the overthrow of materialism [they mean "empirical science"] and its cultural legacies...Design theory promises to reverse the stifling dominance of the materialist worldview, and to replace it with a science consonant with Christian and theistic convictions. And they are well along the way.

*Readers who are familiar with the issues regarding evolution only through the shamefully biased mainstream reporting of IDiocy may be surprised to learn that there is not only no science at all behind the "Intelligent Design" movement, but not even any relevant scientific research that's been published by the movement. Even though there are a few trained scientists among the advocates of IDiocy, their scientific research has not been relevant to "Intelligent Design" issues. At best, they have merely theorized and hypothesized and tried to poke holes in modern day evolution science. More often than not, they simply refer to popular books or articles published in "Intelligent Design" or "Christian" magazines, which have have never been peer reviewed (and would never stand up to scrutiny).

The IDiot who appears to be the most difficult to dismiss on the scientific substance is one William Dembski, who has written book after book chockablock with abstruse "mathematics." There are very few people qualified to slog through his work, but those who have report that Dembski resorts more than not to mathematisms - that is, pretentious and vacuous symbology that looks like real math - rather than the real thing. Dembski's real work, the book makes clear, is in christian apologetics and evangelization. As Dembski says, "Indeed, intelligent design [sic] is just the Logos theology of John's Gospel restated in the idiom of information theory."

In other words, in spite of the fact that there is no science behind it at all - nor much interest, as the book makes clear, in doing any real science - the advocates of "Intelligent Design" want equal time in science classes.

This very deliberate technique - a calculated disinterest in the facts combined with a breathtakingly aggressive assertion of lies - has also been deployed very effectively in the service of other causes, for example the statements by Bush and others that entirely misrepresent the conclusions of the 9/11 report, the Duelfer report and so on
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Wed 22 Jun, 2005 02:45 pm
Thomas wrote:
With some variations depending on the pollster, about a third of the respondents feel confident enough about creationism that they find evolution isn't worth teaching at all. Two thirds are sure enough about creationism, or doubtful enough about evolution, to teach them both. And one third is sure enough about evolution that they don't find creationism worth teaching. Unfortunately, I see no basis for your reading that the majority rejected creationism.


Thomas,
Both questions are from the same poll. You are missing the distinction that the first question asks about "creation" rather than "creationism". The first is religious doctrine, the second is a pseudo-science. The majority in the poll reject the pseudo-science.

Many people who oppose the teaching of intelligent design in science class have also said it would be okay to teach intelligent design in a philosophy or comparative religion class.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Wed 22 Jun, 2005 02:51 pm
wandeljw: I don't believe the "ism" is what made the 30% difference to the replies of the people polled. It's the "along with" versus "instead of" that made this difference. This observation is reaffirmed if you scroll down and look at the results of the FOX/Opinion Dynamics poll, to which my "variations depending on the pollster" refer. The wording in this poll is different, does not depend the "creation vs. creationism" distinction, and it still reproduces the result of the first poll!

Of course, you are perfectly free to believe differently than I do, even if it requires ignoring this other poll.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Wed 22 Jun, 2005 03:13 pm
The Fox poll from Thomas' link:

Quote:
"Last year the National Academy of Sciences recommended that evolution be taught to all public school students as the most convincing theory for how human beings developed. Do you agree or disagree that evolution should be taught in all public schools?"
Agree: 56% Disagree: 36% Not Sure: 8%

"The Kansas State Board of Education recently approved new standards for teaching science in public schools that remove the teaching of evolution from the mandatory curriculum. Do you agree or disagree with the Board's attempt to take the teaching of evolution out of the schools?"
Agree: 33% Disagree: 57% Not Sure: 10%


I still think Thomas is misreading the survey, not me. What does anyone else think?
0 Replies
 
 

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