Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

@Leadfoot,

If you're going to talk about "bacterial size", you should first concentrate on the various types of bacteria present in nature, and their shapes.

As you will recall, there are various types of bacteria, and there are various morphologies for these different bacteria.

Macromolecules( proteins and large polysaccharides or even muco-polysaccharides) can be "larger" than your average bacterium. The size of the macromolecule reported, can be a function of the methods employed for the purification of that specific macrlmolecule....which may be highly variable.

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@Miller,

Thanks for the tip. I'll have to read up on it again. I had vague recollections of molecules like that but couldn't find a quick reference to anything larger than 200 million atoms in size. I did want to use a non cell based molecule to fit the pre biotic scenario.

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@georgeob1,

Quote:

In short, most of this as it affects education is a phoney issue. There is no conflict between science and creationism as long as we adopt the scientific method, which calls for us to acknowledge possibilities that are still open.

It is naive to think that the issue is phoney. There are more than enough examples of science education being threatened by religious ideology. In the US, just look at what has been happening in Texas and Kentucky. Textbook publishers selling science curricula to schools across the united States have altered their textbooks in response to ID.

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Quote:

sci·ence
ˈsīəns/Submit
noun
the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behavior of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment.

Quote:

re·li·gion
rəˈlijən/
noun
the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.

The belief in an unseen intelligent designer clearly places ID/creationism in the latter category.

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@Leadfoot,

Why would we settle for 100 possibilities? Your 500 pair molecule would have 1200 possibilities if it makes 5 proteins.

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As this article at the New Scientist shows, the largest molecules are on the order of 10 nano-meters. That's one one hundred millionth of a meter.

From Wikipedia:

Quote:

Mycoplasma gallicepticum, a parasitic bacterium which lives in the primate bladder, waste disposal organs, genital, and respiratory tracts, is thought to be the smallest known organism capable of independent growth and reproduction. With a size of approximately 200 to 300 nm, M. genitalium is an ultramicrobacterium smaller than other small bacteria, including rickettsia and chlamydia. However, the vast majority of bacterial strains have not been studied, and the marine ultramicrobacteria Sphingomonas sp strain RB2256 is reported to have passed through 220 nm ultrafilter. A complicating factor is nutrient-downsized bacteria, bacteria that become much smaller due to a lack of available nutrients.

That's the smallest bacterium at 200 nanometers, 20 times as large as the largest molecule. Miller/Foofie is some self-glorifying nurses' aide who tries to make herself out to be far more knowledgeable that she can demonstrate herself to be.

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I think it's hilarious that LF is attempting to refute abiogenesis by reference to DNA, which is obviously a late arrival in the parade of living organisms. To debate that with him is to accept the premise in what is a begged question.

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@Setanta,

I find it hard to believe that anybody could come out of a year of university-level science education and even conceive of the idea that a molecule could be larger than a bacterium. Jeez, viruses and prions are made of molecules. Rolling Eyes

PSA:

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@Setanta,

Quote:

I think it's hilarious that LF is attempting to refute abiogenesis by reference to DNA, which is obviously a late arrival in the parade of living organisms. To debate that with him is to accept the premise in what is a begged question.

I think we have gone down a rabbit hole now. The known parade of life has nothing but DNA based life in it. 'Molecular life' (self reproducing molecules) has been proposed as the precursor but as rosborne and other knowledgable people have readily admitted, no trace of it has been found.

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@Leadfoot,

This is not true. There are several RNA based life forms, including RNA viruses such as influenza and ebola. You've gone so deeply into the poofism that you apparently think your magic sky daddy just poofed DNA into existence and that no other medium for replication exists. I've already posted a link showing that RNA can replicate in clay tubes, with the chemical linkages which naturally occur there, and without DNA.

As for what Roswell and others may or may not have said, you're just cherry-picking ideas that suit you, a trait common to ID and creationist folk.

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@Setanta,

Is LF the one who claimed to make a living in a field of science, or was that a different wingnut? I'm getting them mixed up.

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@Setanta,

Quote:

@Leadfoot,
This is not true. There are several RNA based life forms, including RNA viruses such as influenza and ebola. You've gone so deeply into the poofism that you apparently think your magic sky daddy just poofed DNA into existence and that no other medium for replication exists. I've already posted a link showing that RNA can replicate in clay tubes, with the chemical linkages which naturally occur there, and without DNA.

Viruses and such are not life forms. They merely hijack the life of the cells they invade.

There is no functional difference between RNA and DNA. They both carry the design information for the organism. Just because RNA's alphabet uses 'U' instead of 'T' makes no functional difference. DNA's helix structure is more stable however.

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@Leadfoot,

Quote:

DNA and RNA perform different functions in humans. DNA is responsible for storing and transferring genetic information while RNA directly codes for amino acids and as acts as a messenger between DNA and ribosomes to make proteins.

Comparison of DNA and RNA

Comparison

DNA
Name DeoxyriboNucleic Acid RiboNucleic Acid
Function Long-term storage of genetic information; transmission
of genetic information to make other cells and new organisms.

RNA
Used to transfer the genetic code from the nucleus to the ribosomes to make proteins. RNA is used to transmit genetic information in some organisms and may have been the molecule used to store genetic blueprints in primitive organisms.

http://chemistry.about.com/od/lecturenoteslab1/a/Dna-Versus-Rna.htm

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@FBM,

Not that it's important but my day job is EE.

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@Leadfoot,

Quote:

EE, formerly Everything Everywhere, is a British mobile network operator and internet service provider.

??

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@FBM,

Sorry again, we egotistical Americans assume the world revolves around us.

EE is Electrical Engineering here.

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@Leadfoot,

You must make sh*t up to cover your BS whenever you get challenged. Viruses certainly are living organisms, where that agrees with your poofism or not.

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@Setanta,

First seen as poisons, then as life-forms, then biological chemicals, viruses today are thought of as being in a gray area between living and nonliving: they cannot replicate on their own but can do so in truly living cells and can also affect the behavior of their hosts profoundly. (Aug 8, 2008, Scientific American)

And since they cannot reproduce...

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@Leadfoot,

Quote:

they cannot replicate on their own but can do so in truly living cells and can also affect the behavior of their hosts profoundly. (Aug 8, 2008, Scientific American)

And since they cannot reproduce...

Do you make sense to you? You've just said they can't replicate on their own and need living cells (True) and then you said they cannot reproduce (false, as you've just stated they need a living cell to do so).

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@hingehead,

I'll finish that for you since you didn't see the obvious implication:

And since they can't reproduce on their own, they are not a good candidate for the precursors to living cells.

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Intelligent Design Theory: Science or Religion?

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