0
   

The US, UN & Iraq II

 
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Mar, 2003 09:29 pm
http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2003131811,00.html

Quote:
Ambushed and executed

Another insight from a bit further in the article:
Quote:
A human shield of terrified Iraqi women and children was held at gunpoint at a military base surrounded by tanks from the US 7th Cavalry on their drive towards Baghdad.

Jets were already screaming towards the base when scouts monitoring the site spotted the human shield. The attack was aborted.



The dirty face of war ... why is one's enemies seem always to be monsters? Major advances and significant consolidation into two separate pushes into Baghdad occurred today, with the heaviest fighting yet. Sandstorms may complicate things, but tomorrow should see the first contact between Coalition Forces and Republican Guards units. The risk of WMD use increases. Maintaining the initiative is key to Coalition strategy, and no lessening of pressure is to be expected. Midweek could see The Final Battle shaping up, both around Baghdad and in The North. Casualties, military and civilian alike, though historically light, will continue to mount. Heretofore, the approach has been directed more at the enemy's equipment and infrastructure than on its operational troops. That is about to change.

A couple other passing thoughts ... while The Chemical Factory, though fortified and camfolaged, apparently contained nothing, apart from a general officer and a security detachment, that in itself is interesting. Also of interest and promising future importance is the apparent involvement of Russian Private Sector Entities in activities contravening sanction agreements. As to future treatment of POWs, perhaps there is hope; Saddam may percieve advantage to be had through concessions in that area to the UN. He knows his only hope of survival is a negotiated ceasefire.

Don't fret yerself none, there, Ketamine. Takes a bit more than that to hurt my feelins'. Sometimes my cultural bias hurts other folks feelin's.

Oh, Halliburton? I wouldn't ... a stable, relatively low oil price will do them little good in the mid to long term, and I really don't see enough volatility re Hallibuton near term for speculative profit. And the SAS are quite active, providing recon, targeting, harrassment, and interdiction missions essentially "Behind the lines", which unfortunately often means "Below the news". Their contribution likely will not be revealed for some time yet, though it is sure to be acknowledged and disclosed before too very long. I know how hard that is on you Aussie types ... you sort are as impatient (and as indecorous) as the bloody Yanks :wink:
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Mar, 2003 09:34 pm
Turkey's Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan discussed a possible Turkish intervention Monday with the country's military leader, Gen. Hilmi Ozkok.
"The Turkish armed forces have made certain plans and preparations in this matter. When the right time and place comes, the necessary decisions will be made and put into effect," Ozkok said after the meeting.
Turkey has had several thousands of troops in northern Iraq since the late 1990s, but wants to beef up its military presence there to prevent a massive refugee flow from Iraq. Up to 750,000 Iraqi Kurds fled to Turkey during the 1991 Gulf War (news - web sites).
Turkey also fears that the fall of Saddam Hussein (news - web sites) could lead to the creation of an independent Kurdish state in Iraq. That, in turn, could boost the aspirations of Turkey's Kurdish rebels, who fought a 15-year war for autonomy in southeastern Turkey.


Iraqi Kurdish forces have warned of clashes if Turkey sends in troops.


Safeen Dizayee, an official of the Kurdistan Democratic Party, which controls part of northern Iraq, said Monday that even if Turkey and the United States agreed on an increased Turkish military presence in northern Iraq, that deal would not be binding on the Iraqi Kurds.
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Mar, 2003 09:36 pm
[quote="timberlandko"

And the SAS are quite active, providing recon, targeting, harrassment, and interdiction missions essentially "Behind the lines", which unfortunately often means "Below the news". Their contribution likely will not be revealed for some time yet, though it is sure to be acknowledged and disclosed before too very long. I know how hard that is on you Aussie types ... you sort are as impatient (and as indecorous) as the bloody Yanks :wink:[/quote]

timberlanko

What do you know that we don't?
Could you supply some details, please?
Though nothing would surprise me ... <sigh>
0 Replies
 
sumac
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Mar, 2003 09:41 pm
Joe Nation states:

Quote:
What our policy in the Middle East has been about is influence and we have consistently backed the wrong horses.
The present war is the direct result of short sighted, wrong-headed American foreign policy dating back to the Reagan presidency. It was only after Hussein had used gas on Kurd villages that the US government opened diplomatic relations with the current Iraqi regime. We were not opposed, in fact, we encouraged the prosecution of the Iran-Iraq War, first as a method of revenge against the Ayatollahs of Iran for holding our diplomats for 666 days (which of course was revenge for our installing the Shah over their country, but how far back shall I go here?)and second, in the hope that the two countries would fixate on the battles between them and be less inclined to get involved in the Israeli/Palestinian matters.


And Asherman goes beyond to point out the duplicitious involvement of other countries in the present situation: notably some key players in the recent UN debacle.

I would welcome an explicit discussion about the hows and whys of Hussein acquiring his odious WMD. Perhaps a separate thread would be more appropriate? Anyone?
0 Replies
 
sumac
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Mar, 2003 09:46 pm
As timber pointed out just above in his post, link, and quoted material:

"A human shield of terrified Iraqi women and children was held at gunpoint at a military base surrounded by tanks from the US 7th Cavalry on their drive towards Baghdad.

Jets were already screaming towards the base when scouts monitoring the site spotted the human shield. The attack was aborted."

Actions such as these are likely to be heard repeatedly in the days and weeks ahead. How to respond, or not to respond? If this practice becomes widespread, what will be the effect on military tactical planning and procedures?

ANother separate discussion?
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Mar, 2003 10:00 pm
timber

Not the Sun, for god's sake. Anything but the Sun.
0 Replies
 
pueo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Mar, 2003 10:10 pm
i dunno about that blatham, i found the "weapons of mass seduction" very informative. :wink:
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Mar, 2003 10:20 pm
blatham, it stretched my shamelessness a tad, I'll admit. But despite the articles, The Sun does have really interesting pictures ... Laughing
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Mar, 2003 10:45 pm
James Meek outside Nassiriya
Tuesday March 25, 2003
The Guardian

Hopes of a joyful liberation of a grateful Iraq by US and British armies are evaporating fast in the Euphrates valley as a sense of bitterness, germinated from blood spilled and humiliations endured, begins to grow in the hearts of invaded and invader alike. ... A surgical assistant at the Saddam hospital in Nassiriya, interviewed at a marine check point outside the city, said that on Sunday, half an hour after two dead marines were brought into the hospital, US aircraft dropped what he described as three or four cluster bombs on civilian areas, killing 10 and wounding 200.
Mustafa Mohammed Ali said he understood US forces going straight to Baghdad to get rid of Saddam Hussein, but was outraged that they had attacked his city and killed civilians. "I don't want forces to come into the city. They have an objective, they go straight to the target," he said. "There's no room in the Saddam hospital because of the wounded. It's the only hospital in town. When I saw the dead Americans I cheered in my heart.... Asked about the much-vaunted fedayeen militia, reported by some sources to be leading the battle, Mr Ali said: "They are children." Other travellers from Nassiriya said they were press-ganged youths who went into battle dressed in black with black scarves wound around their faces and who fight for fear of the execution committees waiting to shoot them if they try to run... And the Iraqis are aggrieved at the marines. A 50-year-old businessman and farmer, Said Yahir, was driving up to the main body of the reconnaissance unit, stationed under the bridge. He wanted to know why the marines had come to his house and taken his son Nathen, his Kalashnikov rifle, and his 3m dinars (about £500). "What did I do?" he said. "This is your freedom that you're talking about? This is my life savings." ... In 1991, in the wake of Iraq's defeat in the first Gulf war, Mr Yahir was one of those who joined the rebellion against Saddam Hussein. His house was shelled by the dictator's artillery. The US refused to intervene and the rebellion was crushed. "Saddam would have fallen if they had supported us," Mr Yahir said. "I've been so humiliated." ...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,921393,00.html
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Mon 24 Mar, 2003 11:37 pm
My daughter, a bright and intellectually sophisticated 20 year old, woke me last night, wanting to talk. She had just bumped into the news item of the captured Americans, including the one woman. She was crying, deeply unsettled by the evils being now perpetrated by humans against other humans. We talked for quite a while, an ongoing conversation as these matters had spiralled towards war. She said last night that she'd always felt deprived, not having grown up in the sixties when young people shared a deep and widespread cause. I welcomed her to the un-fun place where causes and nostalgia are born.

Two senior Canadian politicians were today quoted in the Vancouver Sun regarding this war.

Lloyd Axworthy, academic and former Liberal Minister of Foreign Affairs, said "Let's not assume that Iraq is a one-off exercise. If they think it's working here, they are gong to try and go somewhere else to do it. And that' where - if you start getting into serial interventions - then we really are into a position where there's a real breakdown internationally."

Brian Mulroney, former Conservative Prime Minister, said, "For 135 years, Canada has made common cause with Australia, the UK and the US in the defence of liberty and freedom around the world...Now we have repudiated at a crucial, seminal moment in our history our allies and coalition partners of the past. And we have new partners, the Russians, the Chinese and the Germans. This represents quite a change and I want to tell you I am one of the many Canadians who is dissatisfied with it and regrets it."

Let me just add that Brian Mulroney's Conservative government became so hated in Canada for it's arrogance and corruption, that subsequent elections have almost completely decimated his party. I'll also add that when Archer Daniels Midland was successfully indicted for world-wide price fixing of lisene in the US and in Canada, the amount of fine that ADM might pay was negotiated by one of their directors here, the same Mr. Mulroney.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Mar, 2003 03:54 am
So we only ever wanted to take Basra to bring it aid. A city of 1.3 million people is surrounded. Nevertheless the Iraqis are resisting and have brought in reinforcements from the north. In the course of the fighting the electricty supply has been cut. So they have no power for the pumps and therefore no water.

So the situation is simple. We are determined to get humanitarian aid into Basra and reconnect the power and water supplies. The inhabitants of Basra are determined to fight. So Basra has been designated a military objective (to get the aid in). We are therefore shelling positions in and around Basra with surgical strikes designed only to kill people resisting our determination to help them.

Also we have the unfair tactics used against us of civilians wearing civilian clothing as they attack our efforts to aid them. And the Royal Marines have come under machine gun fire from the Iranians who are helping their shia muslim brothers in Basra in resisting our attempts to liberate them.

But I'm sure Paul Wolfovitz has the brain power to get us out of this, after all he had the brain power to get us into it.
0 Replies
 
frolic
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Mar, 2003 05:07 am
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
And the Royal Marines have come under machine gun fire from the Iranians who are helping their shia muslim brothers in Basra in resisting our attempts to liberate them.


Interesting and worrying evolution. Do you have a link on that?
0 Replies
 
Ketamine
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Mar, 2003 05:17 am
Kalashnikov V Armalite

Timberland thanx for your ideas on Halliburton. Personally I disagree. Big contracts will be awarded out of the Iraqi Oilfields - and my guess would be that Halliburton would rank high on most tender lists. Sure the oil price will settle in the mid 20's as is the wish of the WEF - don't have to be Greenspan to work that one out!
However a big upturn in output and Halliburton's presence as a JV partner will see them as a medium term buy.

What happens in the Iraq re: the War is really superflous to what happens afterward.

I think a lot of the US/UK trading partners should be concerned.

BTW I'm told the AK 47 is a far better weapon for the conditions that a land battle may occur (sandy/dusty/dirty) than a M-16. Is that true Timber?
0 Replies
 
Ketamine
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Mar, 2003 05:25 am
HALLIBURTON MAKES A KILLING (News 3 Hours old)

A story from the Pakistan Daily Times.

Halliburton is Dick Cheney's former company.

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_25-3-2003_pg4_16
0 Replies
 
frolic
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Mar, 2003 05:29 am
Ketamine wrote:
HALLIBURTON MAKES A KILLING (News 3 Hours old)

A story from the Pakistan Daily Times.

Halliburton is Dick Cheney's former company.

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_25-3-2003_pg4_16


I was reporting this even before the war broke out. This is not "Iraqi Freedom" This is "American Elite Profit"

Able2know: Cheney is still paid by Pentagon contractor
0 Replies
 
HofT
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Mar, 2003 06:06 am
Back for 2 days (to give a speech, of all things!) note with interest the addition of an ISI spokesperson to this thread - unless the Berkeley-based Mr. Pratap Chatterjee has some hitherto undetected readers closer to home, in which case why is he only published in the PakiTimes?

Separately, though on a related matter: what the hell was Australia thinking during the 1980s when it signed end-user certificates for hundreds of tanks (doesn't anyone in Canberra have a map displaying location of Australia?), armored personnel vehicles, mobile missile launchers, et al, all of which items ended up - mysteriously - in this current Messopotamian Mess??? <G>
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Mar, 2003 06:07 am
I think recent responses have been excellent, perhaps because some of us have been trying to engage our brains before we open fire.

Some comments

Frolic

I heard on the BBC "Today Programme" that the Marines themselves had reported coming under Iranian machine gun fire. The Iranians deny this. How serious this is I don't know, but if you are in the arc of fire from any machine gun, I would imagine you take it pretty damn seriously.



Tartarin quotes an interesting response from a reader of the NYT regarding WMD

Quote:
What if no such weapons are found in Iraq? Will we do the right thing and pay for the reconstruction of that country, which our government had no legitimate right to attack in the first place?


Coalition forces will find evidence of WMD in Iraq, you can be sure of that. If there are none at present, they will be imported, possibly with the help of Donald Rumsfeld.

As Joe nation writes

Quote:
So we have a mess of our own making to clean up, including the weapons of mass destruction which we were instrumental in providing to the Iraqis in the first place. Donald Rumsfeld made it possible for Saddam Hussein to aquire anthrax,


Asherman writes

Quote:
I hope that fissionable materials and processing elements for chemical and biological agents have not be transfered to Saddam's regime.


Its absolutely vital that WMD are found in Iraq or this war is for nothing.

There have been comments about re ordering Iraq including border changes. Firstly we have made it abundantly clear that the territorial integrity of Iraq is sacrosanct.

As Kara points out Turkey will never tolerate an independent kurdistan. In fact Turkey is putting troops in to N Iraq to prevent this.

It seems to me that the objective will be to set up US save protectorates around the major cities and the oil fields, the rest of iraq can fight with itself to a standstill. Anarchy will prevail.

And I liked this quote from Dyslexia on anarchism

Quote:
Each man's as good as the next--if not a damn sight better


JamesMorrison writes

Quote:
It is a delicate balance and at some point in America's nation building she will have to let the emerging nation walk that path alone.


Agree with virtually all you say Jim, its just a pity that America's nation building efforts seem always to be preceded by America's nation destroying activities.

Timber writes

Quote:
Casualties will increase dramatically, but will remain militarily insignificant
.

They may not be insignificant at home

on the chemical factory

Quote:
... while The Chemical Factory, though fortified and camfolaged, apparently contained nothing, apart from a general officer and a security detachment, that in itself is interesting


Why is an abandoned chemical works interesting?

on pow treatment

Quote:
Saddam may percieve advantage to be had through concessions in that area to the UN. He knows his only hope of survival is a negotiated ceasefire.


Would coalition forces settle for a negotiated ceasefire through the UN? I thought the idea was to kill Saddam. If he's going to remain in power, that sounds like a defeat for us.


Asherman wrote

Quote:
Lacking military muscle, they (Europe) adopted appeasement as a strategy. Several, France most notibly, have made tidy profits supplying the Iraqi military with weapons.


How did we spineless weak appeasers in Europe manage to have no arms but sell our arms to Saddam? This is just Frog bashing. If this war goes badly don't expect any sympathy from the Germans French Russians Chinese or anyone else.
0 Replies
 
HofT
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Mar, 2003 06:21 am
Hi Steve - latest in DC is update on headline "Fog over Channel - Continent Isolated" said to have appeared at the Times in the days of Queen Victoria; our version now running as: "France, Germany, Russia, and China isolated" (sic).

Kindly note we're supplying some of our "neo-cons" - generally known as just plain cons - with just enough rope to hang themselves and save taxpayers from expensive trials. Ample precedent exists <G>
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Mar, 2003 06:49 am
HofT

That result is my fervent prayer. This household promises to donate the hemp rope (of course, we'll need a course in weaving first, but I understand such are available).
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Mar, 2003 06:53 am
Halliburton currently trades at about 50% off its level of two years ago (Which incidentally puts Cheney's sequestered holdings at the same loss), and in fact during that period has underperformed both The Market and its Sector. The Price-to-Earnings and the price-to-book values aren't stellar, either. Analysts who've given it much more thought than I (I don't hold or trade the issue) aren't very bullish on it either. IMHO, there are better investments, immediate, near, mid, and long term.

As to casualties, yes, the Public Mood can be difficult to gauge. I note however, that I personally have been in individual firefights which have generated more "Freindly" casualties than this entire "War" has so far done, even including fratricide and non-combat losses in the current total.

Steve, as to the chemical factory what I find interesting is not that the place was empty, but that the empty place was fortified, camoflaged, and apparently in the charge of a General Officer and a Security Detail. That is wierd.
0 Replies
 
 

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