The US, UN & Iraq II

Try checking out the bbc webpage. There's a big section devoted to the war.

Here's a link to an article.... it's old-ish.casualties

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The unfortunate fact is US action will cause injury or death to civilians ... likely numbering in the hundreds, dead or wounded in aggregate. There will not be tens of thousands of civilian casualties, dead, injured, or homeless, due to US action.

Now, if you really yearn to see the full fury and horror of war, just be patient a day or two. Ground action so far has been relatively light. If and when Brigade-sized and larger US and UK units engage similarly sized, adequately equipped, better trained, likely better led Republican Guard units in set-piece battle, there will be a very different picture of war broadcast into the livingrooms of the world. I hope this will prove unnescessary, but if it does come about, well, "You ain't seen nothin' yet"

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timberlandko wrote:

The unfortunate fact is US action will cause injury or death to civilians ... likely numbering in the hundreds, dead or wounded in aggregate. There will not be tens of thousands of civilian casualties, dead, injured, or homeless, due to US action.

I hope not. There were, last time in the Gulf. Several tens of thousands. Dead, that is, and many more homeless. But it's true casualties in for example Yugoslavia were very limited (around 800).

Now I know casualties are part of war like blue screens are part of the MS experience. What struck me was that there was this news, of 50 Iraqi casualties, coming in from Al-Jazeera; and neither CNN nor BBC ever came back to it. Whereas in the meantime, a third of the news time was spent on the unfortunate 5 caught American soldiers. One image sticks, the other just glides away, nobody even notices ...

Now I know that BBC is British and CNN American, and thus they are logically bound to have more concern about "their own" victims than those of the other (tho I wished CNN would then just drop the "International" label, cause it isn't much, ever). It just makes me wish I had an alternative news source to look at; I don't understand French easily enough to watch TV5 for longer than a little while without getting a headache ... :-(

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Snood wrote:
anyone still waiting for perception to be reasonable can give it up. $hit like this post proves that he is motivated by a need to simply inflame, and incite angry replies. Perception, unless you can produce ONE single post demonstrating that anyone here has EVER said anything to suggest we wish harm on Americans, or that that's what they "deserve", do so. If not, please put a lid on that BS.

Snood once again you have trouble reading and comprehending what I said which is as follows:

It is behavior consistent with the regime that has controlled Iraq for 30 years. I refuse to think that ordinary Iraqi people would participate in such acts but yet I will not be surprised to hear of some American Saddam sympathisers who will say that the American Pows got " just what they deserved".

I'm waiting to hear the "outrage" of all you good people.

I said--some American Saddam sympathisers who will say that the American Pows got " just what they deserved".

Notice I did not accuse any posters of being "Saddam sympathizers"

I did however give notice that I expected some outrage expressed by many posters which I still do not see---it appears that some of our prisoners were "executed" while in custody---I would hope that even you would express outrage.

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I think Perception is fighting the last war, or shall I say, the last real American war, the one in Viet Nam. His reference to Jane Fonda, his expectation that the present anti-war movement is also anti-GI, that it is part and parcel identical to the anti-war movement of the late 60's and early 70's shows a lack of understanding of how the world is now.

Joe

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Joe

Since you seem to have possession of the crystal ball and this self proclaimed understanding of how "the world is today". Pray tell what is the world of today?

Seems a strange world indeed when those of us who want to honor the traditions of a great country to always want to rid the world of a threat so we can go back to fishing or watching the Yankees beat the Mets or watching our children and grandchildren grow up without fear are suddenly the warmongers and those who want our mission to fail miserably are the "REAL PATRIOTS". This may be your world but to me it a world that has gone insane with hatred for a president who "stole" the election.

If I wasn't so concerned for my grandchildren I would wish that you reap the seeds of hatred that you "wonderful patriots" have sewn.

I'm off to bed before I get sick---I hope this old cliche sets you on fire ------LOVE IT OR LEAVE IT

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http://www.endthewar.org/1_145858_1_6.jpg
What collateral damage looks like.

photo taken off

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Dear wilso, I'm not sure I wanted to see that, but then again, I'm against the war and I know what collateral damage looks like. In fact, we all are/could be collarteral damage.

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Veteran war reporter Robert Fisk tours the Baghdad hospital to see the wounded after a devastating night of air strikes

23 March 2003

Donald Rumsfeld says the American attack on Baghdad is "as targeted an air campaign as has ever existed" but he should not try telling that to five-year-old Doha Suheil. She looked at me yesterday morning, drip feed attached to her nose, a deep frown over her small face as she tried vainly to move the left side of her body. The cruise missile that exploded close to her home in the Radwaniyeh suburb of Baghdad blasted shrapnel into her tiny legs they were bound up with gauze and, far more seriously, into her spine. Now she has lost all movement in her left leg.

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timberlandko wrote:

frolic, your bias colors your perception. We are not bombing civilian targets. Errors and failures will occur, yes. However, we are not leveling cities, we are leveling the infrastructure of The Regime, while sparing bridges, residential districts, civilian broadcast facilities, shopping or cultural areas. No matter what you may think. Carpet bombing a city is a lot cheaper and less dangerous than taking out specific targets. We are taking unprecendented measures to limit non-regime-specific targets. Thems the facts, partner.

You better change your channel and watch some other news. All Jazeera is the only news channel in the other cities like Basra and Tukrit. (Bagdad maybe spared because the army knows the world is waiting there for the civilian casualties) A-Jazeera showed some other pictures of this war. A market place in the center of Basra bombed, killing 77 civilians. There are more pictures of children with crushed skulls, the same Wilso showed, other Children. I bet the reply of Rumsfeld is: What is your problem? They are freed from Saddam.

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Wilso,

It actually a 10 year old boy but yeah it's pretty gruesome.

I often check out the Arabic news sites and they have a tendancy to show more graphic images than Western ones. This may be just a cultural difference.

I think the criticism of Al Jazeera is unfounded. It wasn't their people that paraded the POW's they just showed the images. I think Al Jazeera balanced the biased reports of CNN et al. You can check out aljazeera.net for images not likely to make the 6 O'Clock news.

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Can you give us a link?

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Wilso

This is the address but it seems to have become inaccessible this afternoon.

www.aljazeera.net

try also

www.al-jazeera.com

Cheerz

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frolic, the flaw in your argument is quite ably demonstrated by the lack of streams of refugees pouring from cities. Sorry, partner ... your heart is in the right place, but your head isn't. I gotta say, though, I admire your pluck. You're entitled to believe whatever you wish, as am I. As to "Changing Channels", I venture I have access to and make use of a far more diverse selection of information than do most folks. I do in facrt consult and consider the propagandists and apologists which you seem to favor. I don't weight their content very heavilly. That has nothing to do with The War per se, or any "Pro-American" stance. Actually, ny motives are far more shallow and mercenary; I'm a day-trading investor, across a variety of of instruments and the performance of my portfolio indicates to me I'm "watching the right channel". If I were losing money, I would suspect perhaps I was being naive, or even being led astray. Over the last several years, I've seen no cause for such concern. I prefer to remain dispassionate and intend to continue being so. It is an approach I have long found profitable. I admit to being a capitalist. It works for me.

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timberlandko wrote:

frolic, the flaw in your argument is quite ably demonstrated by the lack of streams of refugees pouring from cities. Sorry, partner ... your heart is in the right place, but your head isn't. I gotta say, though, I admire your pluck. You're entitled to believe whatever you wish, as am I. As to "Changing Channels", I venture I have access to and make use of a far more diverse selection of information than do most folks. I do in facrt consult and consider the propagandists and apologists which you seem to favor. I don't weight their content very heavilly. That has nothing to do with The War per se, or any "Pro-American" stance. Actually, ny motives are far more shallow and mercenary; I'm a day-trading investor, across a variety of of instruments and the performance of my portfolio indicates to me I'm "watching the right channel". If I were losing money, I would suspect perhaps I was being naive, or even being led astray. Over the last several years, I've seen no cause for such concern. I prefer to remain dispassionate and intend to continue being so. It is an approach I have long found profitable. I admit to being a capitalist. It works for me.

Like is said, my perception, like your perception, is based on the information we get by the media. I've learnt from several occasions the American Media elite and the political elite are cooperation to keep the people stupified and ignorant. Better subsribe to some other channels. Maybe they are not telling the entire truth but at least it broadens your perception of this war. The Iraqi never wanted this war in the first place.

I dont understands what the stock market has to do with the justification of this war. Those people make money out of money. The stocks go up when a corporation sacks thousands of people. Those people do not have to tell me what is moral and what is not. IMO Pecunia pecuniam non parit! There are always losers in your stock market story!

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This is my understanding so far

Saddam is alive and kicking
The Iraqis are not welcoming coalition forces but resisting (fiercely in pockets)
Supply lines are extended and vulnerable
We have still not taken Um Qsar, let alone Basra
Israel has launched a missile at Iraq why?
ITN reporter killed by British forces
RAF Tornado downed by American patriot missile with loss of 2 crew
2 tomahawk land attack missiles went awol in Turkey
American missile destroys bus load of Sryians trying to get home
We have about 2000 Iraqi prisoners, they have maybe 6 or 7 Americans maybe 2 British.
Iraqi farmer with WW1 Lee Enfield rifle downs multi million dollar Apache Longbow attack helicopter.
No northern front launched from Turkey, but have Turkish overfly rights
Despite American warnings, Turkish army invading Kurdistan
Iraqi information minister gives civilian casualty figures in press briefing at the same time first wounded US servicemen arrive at Ramstein.
The expected outflow of Iraqis is not happening, the reverse if anything with Iraqi exiles returning home to fight the invader.

Saddam's tv performance this morning was a stirring call to arms.
Bush's tv interview last night by contrast was stumbling and inept.

Now I wanted to see a quick coalition victory. I honestly expected the regime to crumble (Saddam that is not Bush).

But is it happening? Just what sort of a mess have we got into here, or is it retrievable?

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Your view is still a bit limited frolic, I don't concentrate on "The Stock Market". It gets some of my attention, but so do commodities options... on the international markets. This has nothing to do with the war ... it does color my world view and causes me to put great effort into being aware of a broad spectrum of information, opinion, and perspective. Developments in Argentina, for example, recently opened a profit opportunity in European commodity markets ... and did not involve oil. If you'd like a short-term tip, look at precious metals on the Asian and Pacific Rim exchanges over the next few days. An increase in volatility there, relating to both ongoing and emerging events in the Phillipines and in Malaysia, will provide opportunity for deft arbitrage. I'm playing.

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http://www.yellowtimes.org/categories.php?op=newindex&catid=5

Youre welcome ..... why bother

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Steve, well said.

I guess when they spoke abt "shock and awe" they were not counting on themselves to be "shocked and awed" by the Iraqi resistance.

That is why everyone has started making noises abt how long and difficult this war is going to be.

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Steve, don't expect too much too soon. The fiercest fighting is yet to come, and most likely will begin within the next very few days. While many towns have been encapsulated and nuetralized, there remain within them significant Ba'athist elements, particularly among the civil administrative infrastructure. Lots of Iraqis, justifiably mindful of '91, are "Keeping Their Heads Down". There simply is no widespread "Resistance" to our forces. There are pockets of resistance, which is to be expected. There are no rallies or protests within the areas behind our advance protesting the presence of our forces or in support of Saddam. Our supply lines are experiencing no difficulty arising from either partisan or organized military opposition, despite their unprecedented length and vulnerability. The Ap[ache Iraq claims to have shot down is shown intact and upright, obviously having effected a controlled landing and showing no battle damage, indicating mechanical failure, not enemy action.
Things are going less unwell than many wish to percieve. There is much yet in store. The US will win ... and within a short period of time with astoundingly light casualties. Far more US casualties have been incurred in any number of past battles in past wars. The advance so far has essentially been a highspeed march with occaisional skirmishes. The Battle has not yet been joined, and from what I see, the strategy in place assures overwhelming US victory.

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