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The US, UN & Iraq II

 
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Mar, 2003 09:35 am
Tartarin

Perhaps like yourself, I find I am in this very weird philosophical territory right now. It is rather as if one has a dear big brother, but the fellow has personal characteristics which have made him a malicious and prideful bully. You know the only way he is likely to improve is if he runs into a wall at full speed.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Mar, 2003 09:37 am
This is quite disturbing:
Quote:
SITUATION REPORTS - March 21 2003
1526 GMT - The Supreme Council for Islamic Revolution in Iraq (SCIRI) -- also known as the Supreme Assembly of the Islamic Revolution of Iraq (SAIRI) -- announced March 21 that it is prepared to undertake combat operations in Iraq. The Tehran-based and Iranian-backed group, allied with the Kurds opposing the Saddam Hussein regime, already has placed forces in northern, southern and central regions of Iraq, including Baghdad, and are ready to "follow orders." However, no decision has been made regarding entry into the conflict in Iraq, said Seyed Abdulaziz Hakim, head of SCIRI's "Jihad Bureau," in an interview with the Islamic Republic News Agency.

So is this:
Quote:
1524 GMT - Iraqi Information Minister Mohammed Saeed al-Sahaf said March 21 Baghad will not apply international conventions on prisoners of war and that coalition troops are not soldiers. The minister instead referred to the troops as mercenaries to whom international law does not apply.
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Mar, 2003 09:41 am
I got a call from my mp this morning. He asked me what I thought about the war. I said what troubled me was the dubious legality of what we were doing. I was told (I paraphrase) that the Govt would never commit British forces to any action that was illegal because that would be like sending them out to do murder. To avoid this, the Attorney General (who is the govt's chief law officer and a non elected political appointee of the Prime minsiter), has declared the war to be legal. Big sighs of relief all round.

It is therefore unlikely that senior government ministers will be prosecuted in British courts for war crimes. However, under the newly set up International Criminal Court, (which Blair was so keen to get Bush to sign up for but refused... did he know something was coming?), there is no limit to the seniority of those who can be prosecuted for war crimes. And as the Nuremberg war crimes tribunals made abundantly clear, waging aggressive war is deemed to be THE WAR CRIME (and if I was feeling clever I would add a Latin phrase here, but brain not working after last night).

So as Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth, and not T Blair is the head of the armed forces in Britain, expect moves (not necessarily from me I might add) to summons Queen Elizabeth from Buckingham palace, to the Hague to face charges of war crimes. Laughing
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Mar, 2003 09:44 am
You're the cousin, Blatham. I'm the younger sister of that bully and I'm even more hopeful that he runs into a wall at full speed even though he's taking me and mine with him.
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perception
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Mar, 2003 09:51 am
Blatham and Gautam

Mr. Blix accepted a very sensitive position, the very nature of which would demand that he not ---I repeat---Not make any statement other than his report directly to the UN security council.

Mr Blix is a senior( I believe he is 74 yrs old) diplomat so he has no excuse for his behavior. Given the sensitivity of his mission, ANYONE with an ounce of integrity would realize that he should not make any public statement other than his report to the UN security council yet Mr. Blix could not resist the urge to make a statement to anyone and everyone even before his first report. No one---even you antiwar fanatics--- could possibly consider that responsible behavior.

In the light of this irresponsible behavior one can only come to the conclusion that Mr. Blix has an agenda that seeks to influence world opinion. He made it very evident that the inspectors should be allowed to proceed at a snails pace so as not to offend their hosts, the Iraqis. In other words he visualized this task as his life's work. He would pounce upon any scrap of evidence thrown to him by Saddam as being very important evidence that Saddam was complying with resolution 1441 and downplay any difficulties encountered.

He never considered the consequences of his actions as being critical to the relevance of the UN.

The real flaw came when he failed to insist that scientists and their families be allowed to be interviewed out of country. Saddam did not want this so Blix never insisted. Bad move---in was evident that Saddam feared this the most.

Not surprising because Blix was hand picked by France and Russia most probably after consulting with Saddam.
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Kara
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Mar, 2003 09:58 am
So, what are we allowed to know?

Quote:
Back in mid-February, 2001, the US launched a large bombing raid on Iraq, outside of the internationally disputed "no-fly-zones." It was Bush Jr's first massive bombing of Iraq since taking office. Knowing my group would protest this bombing one of the local TV stations called us for an interview. In the studio hours later, a spokesperson for our group, Rev. Bob Kinsey, was asked by one of the station's veteran reporters, what he thought were the main reasons for the troubles in the middle east. Rev. Kinsey spoke of the massive US military aid to Israel and the resulting instability it caused. The reporter's stunning reply, "While I agree with you, if I say anything about US geopolitical interests with Israel, I might as well clean off my desk." Of course this interview was never aired.

Months later I talked to this reporter and asked why he continued to work in this censored atmosphere. "For every five or ten stories I do on the Broncos or dog grooming," he said, "there's one meaningful story I get away with. In the independent or alternative media I can do stories on whatever I want but hardly anyone is listening beyond the choir." When he told me he would love to go to Palestine as a TV reporter but it wouldn't happen anytime soon, he explained, "The corporations that own the TV stations and their corporate attitudes don't care about doing investigative journalism or covering international news. Any why should they? They're quite profitable without doing it." At best, he told me, they may do some real journalism for the prestige and awards but not to provide the public with good reporting.

Last December, as I was preparing to go to Palestine to partake with internationals in nonviolent direct action to end Israel's illegal occupation, my group had arranged an interview with the local Fox news station. The reporter was excited because he saw, like we did, our story as a local connection to an international issue. Though the interview was scheduled days in advance and cleared by appropriate news directors, just an hour before my 15 seconds of air-time, the interview was abruptly canceled. "I'm a soldier, not a general," the reporter told us when we asked why.


That quote is from this link: http://www.ccmep.org/ccmep/american031902.html
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littlek
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Mar, 2003 10:01 am
Grrrr.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Mar, 2003 10:05 am
Quote:
A letter to the London Observer newspaper from Terry Jones (of
Monty Python fame).
The Observer
I'm really excited by George Bush's latest reason for bombing Iraq: he's
running out of patience. And so am I! For some time now I've been really
pissed off with Mr Johnson, who lives a couple of doors down the street.
Well, him and Mr Patel, who runs the health food shop. They both give me
queer looks, and I'm sure Mr Johnson is planning something nasty for me,
but so far I haven't been able to discover what.
I've been round to his place a few times to see what he's up to, but
he's got everything well hidden. That's how devious he is. As for Mr
Patel,don't ask me how I know, I just know - from very good sources -
that he is, in reality, a Mass Murderer. I have leafleted the street
telling them that if we don't act first, he'll pick us off one by one.
Some of my neighbours say, if I've got proof, why don't I go to the
police? But that's simply ridiculous. The police will say that they need
evidence of a crime with which to charge my neighbours. They'll come up
with endless red tape and quibbling about the rights and wrongs of a
pre-emptive strike and all the while Mr Johnson will be finalising his
plans to do terrible things to me, while Mr Patel will be secretly
murdering people. Since I'm the only one in the street with a decent
range of automatic firearms, I reckon it's up to me to keep the peace.
But until recently that's been a little difficult. Now, however, George
W. Bush has made it clear that all I need to do is run out of patience,
and then I can wade in and do whatever I want!
And let's face it, Mr Bush's carefully thought-out policy towards Iraq
is the only way to bring about international peace and security. The one
certain way to stop Muslim fundamentalist suicide bombers targeting the
US or the UK is to bomb a few Muslim countries that have never
threatened us.
That's why I want to blow up Mr Johnson's garage and kill his wife and
children. Strike first! That'll teach him a lesson. Then he'll leave us
in peace and stop peering at me in that totally unacceptable way.
Mr Bush makes it clear that all he needs to know before bombing Iraq is
that Saddam is a really nasty man and that he has weapons of mass
destruction - even if no one can find them. I'm certain I've just as
much justification for killing Mr Johnson's wife and children as Mr Bush
has for bombing Iraq. Mr Bush's long-term aim is to make the world a
safer place by eliminating 'rogue states' and 'terrorism'. It's such a
clever long-term aim because how can you ever know when you've achieved
it?
How will Mr Bush know when he's wiped out all terrorists? When every
single terrorist is dead? But then a terrorist is only a terrorist once
he's committed an act of terror. What about would-be terrorists? These
are the ones you really want to eliminate, since most of the known
terrorists, being suicide bombers, have already eliminated themselves.
Perhaps Mr Bush needs to wipe out everyone who could possibly be a
future terrorist? Maybe he can't be sure he's achieved his objective
until every Muslim fundamentalist is dead? But then some moderate
Muslims might convert to fundamentalism. Maybe the only really safe
thing to do would be for Mr Bush to eliminate all Muslims?
It's the same in my street. Mr Johnson and Mr Patel are just the tip of
the iceberg. There are dozens of other people in the street who I don't
like and who - quite frankly - look at me in odd ways. No one will be
really safe until I've wiped them all out. My wife says I might be going
too far but I tell her I'm simply using the same logic as the President
of the United States. That shuts her up.
Like Mr Bush, I've run out of patience, and if that's a good enough
reason for the President, it's good enough for me. I'm going to give the
whole street two weeks - no, 10 days - to come out in the open and hand
over all aliens and interplanetary hijackers, galactic outlaws and
interstellar terrorist masterminds, and if they don't hand them over
nicely and say 'Thank you', I'm going to bomb the entire street to
kingdom come.
It's just as sane as what George W. Bush is proposing - and, in contrast
to what he's intending, my policy will destroy only one street.
Sincerely,
Terry Jones
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Mar, 2003 10:08 am
Dr. Blix was relatively deep in the barrel of candidates for the position. France and Russia were key impediments to the nomination of several candidates of better credentials and qualifications. Still, ascribing to him pecuniary venality is likely unwarranted. Dr. Blix is a lawyer and a diplomat. His techinal credentials for the position consist of haveing been at the helm of the IAEA while that body found North Korea and Iran in compliance with nuclear non-proliferation protocols. Dr. Blix is also a celebrity, and that profession is his chief delight, the one to which he devotes the bulk of his wit and energy, and from which he derives the greatest personal satisfaction. He's not in it for the money, the limousines, and the girls, its the Globe Girdling Itinneraries, the microphones and cameras he can't live without.
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perception
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Mar, 2003 10:09 am
Blatham

Re: Your comment about wanting to see High-tech toys go "kerblooey". The notification that 4 American Marines and several British Marines were killed when their Chopper crashed accidentally, must have brought a burst of glee and joyful handclapping.

The difference in our perspective while watching this thing unfold on TV. While I look for Iraqi soldiers surrendering---you watch for awful accidents that will somehow vindicate your lust for failure of any American venture.
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snood
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Mar, 2003 10:11 am
Blatham-

"But we ought to be alert to the new and rather unsettling Orwellian reality, as we watch in our comfortable living rooms, that we have been purposefully directed into a into a moral plane of war as entertainment.
"

well said, sir(darn -wish I'd said that!) Evil or Very Mad Very Happy
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the prince
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Mar, 2003 10:11 am
Perception - isn't it funny that the arguments which are given against "anti war" people are the very same arguments which are refuted for "pro war" factions ?

U sir, talk abt violation of UN charter ?
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littlek
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Mar, 2003 10:12 am
Blatham - exactly!
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dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Mar, 2003 10:40 am
perception, please do find a different tune to sing. i think it was said not once nor twice, but many times on these pages, that nobody who is against war wants to see injuries or deaths of american soldiers or rejoice when they do happen. i have not read that in any post, don't take things out of context, that ain't fair.
and it's getting tiring. i'm sure you can think of something else to say?
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Mar, 2003 10:45 am
perc

Just quickly, as I have to run...

You ought to be more clear-headed regarding my protest. I do not even come close to lusting for the 'failure of any American venture'. I think the American venture, as I think it envisioned by your Founders, to be an extraordinarily hopeful goal for liberty.

I do very much want this mad (and I do mean insane) notion of unilateral hegemony with pre-emtion to get blasted to smithereens. And I do very much want the growing influence of big money in your politics to fail. And I do want the increasing influence of the fundamentalist christian community on politics to fail. And I do wish the Eisenhower alert regarding the dangerous connections between the military, industry and government to be taken to heart, so that this force in society is deeply diminished.

Other than that, I'm quite happy on those very very odd occasions when your hockey team beats ours.
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PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Mar, 2003 10:51 am
For those who are so greatly enraged by the ones with whom they disagree, it helps in the rationalization if they can assign some sort of evil representation, dagmar.

It is a somewhat sociopathic response, but one not so different from a President who must make war against a people without any real means to defend themselves, simply because they are ruled by a tyrant.

The same man who mocked a condemned woman on the way to the execution chamber.

The same man who will enrich his friends rebuilding what he is currently having destroyed.
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dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Mar, 2003 10:56 am
well yes. that is understandable, in President's case. It is repulsive, but I can see how ideological propaganda (who's not with us, yada yada yada...) is from time to time a usefull tool for every high official. but in a common-sensical discussion? that is just funny. or actually not very anymore.
0 Replies
 
Kara
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Mar, 2003 11:05 am
blatham, thanks for the Terry Jones piece. A perfect example of reductio ad absurdum.
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Mar, 2003 11:06 am
Blatham -- I emailed Terry Jones' greater Observer letter to a friend in Virginia who emailed back the following:

A peace group from Virginia drove to DC for a scheduled interview with their Senator and were met in the hall by a Pentagon employee assisting the Senator who would not let them in and told them they were wrong and unpatriotic. He has their names...EEEgads!
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 21 Mar, 2003 11:08 am
perception wrote:
Blatham

Re: Your comment about wanting to see High-tech toys go "kerblooey". The notification that 4 American Marines and several British Marines were killed when their Chopper crashed accidentally, must have brought a burst of glee and joyful handclapping.

The difference in our perspective while watching this thing unfold on TV. While I look for Iraqi soldiers surrendering---you watch for awful accidents that will somehow vindicate your lust for failure of any American venture.


I'm sure there are lots of people who would dearly like to see the "American venture" come unstuck. Like the Chinese, the French Germans Russians Belgians Indians Iraqis Iranians etc etc. Whether Blatham is guilty of 'unAmerican thinking' only he can answer, but it is worth noting that even the French (you know - the REAL enemy) expressed regret at the loss of life at the EU summit last night.

There are of course some peurile fantasists who get turned on by big bombs bangs and boobs, mostly living in the United States I would suggest, but I don't think Blatham is one of them.
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