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The US, UN & Iraq II

 
 
Kara
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Mar, 2003 08:59 pm
debacle, in another thread, reminded me of Tom Friedman's column about the Azores summit. It reads in part:

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sumac
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Mar, 2003 09:01 pm
littlek,
Thank you for bringing up the history of things, Vietnam, etc. It is in my mind, and influences me. Why should we be separated from our past?

sumac
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Mar, 2003 09:09 pm
As usual, Paul Krugman echoes my worst fears::

we got assertions about a nuclear program that turned out to be based on flawed or faked evidence; we got assertions about a link to Al Qaeda that people inside the intelligence services regard as nonsense. Yet those serial embarrassments went almost unreported by our domestic news media. So most Americans have no idea why the rest of the world doesn't trust the Bush administration's motives. And once the shooting starts, the already loud chorus that denounces any criticism as unpatriotic will become deafening.

So now
the administration knows that it can make unsubstantiated claims, without paying a price when those claims prove false, and that saber rattling gains it votes and silences opposition. Maybe it will honorably refuse to act on this dangerous knowledge. But I can't help worrying that in domestic politics, as in foreign policy, this war will turn out to have been the shape of things to come. http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/18/opinion/18KRUG.html[/size]
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Mar, 2003 09:17 pm
An aside ... perhaps of interest to some ...

I just received an e-mail from my son. He advises me to expect an interuption of our correspondence, urges me to not worry, and he assures me he'll be back to kick my ass at darts real soon.
The fact that his USMC outfit has been co-positioned with a British outfit for some while now causes me to suspect he has been practicing the game with vigor and dilligence. If so, I should be worried. He was already a formidable dart player.

On second thought, I look forward to losing a few games to him. And the sooner the better.
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Mar, 2003 09:26 pm
"And the sooner the better." YES
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Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Mar, 2003 09:29 pm
Prayers for your kiddo, Timber.



Prayers for all the fighting men,
Prayers for the warrior women,
A candle's light across the night
A shield from all affliction.



Joe
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littlek
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Mar, 2003 09:53 pm
My thoughts are with you and your son, Timber.
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msolga
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Mar, 2003 09:56 pm
timberlandko

My thoughts are with you, too.
May your son return soon.
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Kara
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Mar, 2003 09:57 pm
timber. Thinking about you and about him. Hang in there. Oh God, how can I say that. What do I know, with no kids at the front? This is so damned awful.
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Mar, 2003 10:43 pm
A hug and a good thought to you and your son, Timber. That must be tough for you right now.
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trespassers will
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Mar, 2003 11:29 pm
littlek wrote:
There was a reference to a poll (I'm not even sure that it was on this thread) which stated that 70% of americans support the president in his war on iraq.

Um, it was posted a mere 10 responses above where you wondered where you'd read it. Very Happy

Quote:
Americans have rallied strongly around President Bush and accepted his call for war with Iraq as the only practical way to remove Saddam Hussein and end the threat posed by his weapons of mass destruction, according to a Washington Post-ABC News Poll conducted last night.

Seven in 10 said they supported Bush's televised call to go to war without the blessing of the United Nations unless Saddam Hussein and his sons leave Iraq within 48 hours.

An equally large majority believe that Bush has done enough to win support from other nations. More than two in three said his policies on Iraq are the right ones, although fewer than half are strongly convinced.
Poll: Support for Bush, War Grows
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BillW
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 Mar, 2003 11:52 pm
A hug and a prayer to all the timberlanko's of the world!!!!!!!!!!!
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Mar, 2003 12:48 am
I do hope, timber, your son and all the others return savely!

And do hope that no innocent may be among the victims.




From today's Independent:
Quote:
Dr Salih Ibrahim: Oppressed by Saddam, my family will now bear the brunt of this onslaught
19 March 2003


I fear I may have spoken to my sisters for the last time. At the weekend I tried to telephone Widad and Dhikra, who live in Baghdad, but I couldn't get through. And now America and Britain are preparing to bomb the city and the line will soon go dead for a long time.

What a bitter taste it leaves, knowing that my sisters are being made to endure this fresh atrocity. This assault on Iraq is unjustified and cruel and I oppose it totally. Martin Luther King said: "Wars are poor chisels for carving out peaceful tomorrows" and I feel this war will be no different.

I left Iraq in 1981, when I was 28, to study in Britain. My family were from Basra, where my older brother Ibrahim, his family, my friends and relatives still live. Although I live and work in Britain, I've always wanted to return. When I visited my homeland a few months ago I remember wishing things had been different. I looked at the pathology department in Basra where I trained and thought: "I should be teaching there." But they were still using the antiquated microscopes I used 31 years ago. In schools there was no glass in the windows and the lavatories were flooding.

Iraq deserves better than Saddam Hussein. Four of my cousins died in the Iran-Iraq war. Most Iraqis are mentally scarred. But this is not the right way to get rid of him. It is up to the people of a country to decide their rulers, not an outside power to impose its will.

The Americans talk of brilliant weapons such as "the mother of all bombs" (MOAB); people casually refer to "deaths in the thousands". Perhaps these deaths seem abstract to people when they watch the news, perhaps they can't imagine those terrible bombs actually landing on people. But when I hear of what the invasion force has planned I think of my young nephews and nieces: Safa, Marwa, Muna, Aya, Nawf, Hana, Noor and Reem and all Iraqi children. They are the ones who will bear the brunt of this war.

Many in the West seem to have difficulty accepting that Iraqis are real people, people who will grieve for the children. They are not expendable, they are not vermin. Why don't ordinary Iraqis leave Baghdad to get out of range of the bombs? But why should they leave? Four million people have already left Iraq, many because of sanctions, many because of President Saddam.

Military analysts talk about how his army will soon collapse, how soon it will be defeated by the hi-tech sophistication of America's forces, but they don't seem to appreciate that it is largely a conscript army. What do people expect these poor men to do? They feel they have to protect their homeland and it is likely they will die doing so.

What reason have the Iraqis to trust the Western powers who now come to "liberate" them? Western-imposed sanctions have killed thousands of Iraqis. America has sponsored dictators around the world. This invasion is just the latest in a long line of betrayals of the Iraqi people.
Dr Ibrahim is a consultant pathologist at St Peter's Hospital in Chertsey, Surrey.
http://argument.independent.co.uk/commentators/story.jsp?story=388542
0 Replies
 
PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Mar, 2003 01:16 am
Semper Fi and Godspeed to timber jr.

How to Tell if We're Winning in Iraq

A relevant excerpt:

What happens in the southern Iraqi city of Basra may be a key indicator of success, in political and psychological terms anyway. The 1st Marine Expeditionary Force may capture Basra early, in part to secure its port and oil wells, in part to send images of triumph to the world. President Bush's advisers have assured him that Iraqis will welcome American troops with cheers and flowers. Basra is where this vision has the highest chance of coming true. Its million people are Shiite Muslims, who no doubt hate Saddam Hussein and would likely welcome liberation from anybody. The troops (who are likely to include some Brits as well as Americans) are reportedly well-armed with candy for smiling Shiite children, which is bound to inspire memories of GIs giving Hershey bars to Berlin tykes in '45. This would be a huge morale booster, for our troops and for Bush and Tony Blair. So, the big question is: Will we see such images? If we do, this won't necessarily foretell what might happen further north. But if we don't, if things in Basra are grim, this may forebode deep unpleasantries ahead.

A related question is whether Iraqi soldiers around Basra will put up any serious resistance. Most of these soldiers are regular army units, the majority of them Shiites who have been ill-treated by their Sunni officers and who do not want to die for Saddam Hussein. British intelligence is reportedly seeing 10 percent to 15 percent of front-line troops deserting before a shot's been fired. Once the bombs start, the ranks are likely to thin dramatically. (Mass surrenders took place in '91; in some cases, hundreds of Iraqi soldiers surrendered to a handful of American soldiers.) U.S. commanders are counting on virtually no resistance. If the Iraqis put up quite a bit of resistance, it's a bad sign.

Another question about Basra is whether or not Iraqi soldiers will fire chemical and biological weapons. Saddam has put Lt. Gen. Ali Hasan in charge of Iraq's southern military districts. Hasan earned the nickname "Chemical Ali" for his chemical-weapons assaults in 1988, which killed thousands of Kurds. If U.S. and British troops don't face "weapons of mass destruction" here, it's a good sign.
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sumac
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Mar, 2003 02:12 am
Thanks, Pdiddie. That is about how I see it.
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sumac
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Mar, 2003 02:15 am
Kara,
What does Tony Blair get that Bush, and the entire present administration, does not?

How about intelligence, wisdom, and an understanding of both in history?
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Mar, 2003 03:58 am
re Blair's position:

Here's what the Britsih papers say (from: The Wrap):

Quote:
RECORD REBELLION STILL A TRIUMPH FOR BLAIR

The House of Commons last night declared its support for British
involvement in a war on Iraq last night, despite a record rebellion
of 139 Labour MPs. This clears the way for conflict in the Gulf,
possibly within 24 hours, but most of this morning's newspapers are
more concerned with its significance for Tony Blair.

While the number of Labour rebels actually increased since last
month's vote on Iraq crisis, most papers see the vote as a triumph
for Mr Blair. The Guardian gives prominence to the education
secretary, Charles Clarke, who remarked that: "We won a majority in
parliament, a majority in the Labour party, and a majority of the
backbenchers".

The Telegraph rapturously acclaims the prime minister's speech to
parliament during a 10-hour debate. "It was not only the vote that
Tony Blair won in the House of Commons last night", it declares in a
leader column. "It was the argument, too. Any fair-minded person who
listened to last night's debate... must surely have concluded that he
was right and his opponents wrong."

The prime minister's oratorical skills are also praised by the paper's
sketch writer, Frank Johnson, who says Mr Blair deployed his
"tremulous 'Diana's funeral' voice" to win over doubters. The Times
suggests the tactic worked: "the prime minister was in complete
command of the chamber", it reports. Of the broadsheets, only the
Independent is truly sceptical, claiming the vote leaves Mr Blair
'vulnerable' should the war go badly.

The Guardian reminds its readers that the vote wasn't just won in the
chamber, describing a day of "high-octane rhetoric and low political
arm-twisting". The Mirror also reports backstage dealing, saying the
prime minister's wife was drafted in and "heaped pressure on
potential rebels in a series of phone calls."

* Blair battles past record rebellion
http://politics.guardian.co.uk/iraq/story/0,12956,917298,00.html
* Simon Hoggart: Electrifying Blair goes into Churchill-Custer mode
http://politics.guardian.co.uk/columnist/story/0,9321,917109,00.html
* Telegraph: Master of the House
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml;$sessionid$3C3PFBHI1NKSPQFIQMFSFFOAVCBQ0IV0?xml=/opinion/2003/03/19/dl1901.xml&sSheet=/portal/2003/03/19/ixportal.html
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msolga
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Mar, 2003 04:40 am
Walter Hinteler wrote:


Many in the West seem to have difficulty accepting that Iraqis are real people, people who will grieve for the children. They are not expendable, they are not vermin. quote]

Walter, sadly too true.
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Mar, 2003 06:03 am
Thoroughly recommend the Simon Hoggart article above
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Kara
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Mar, 2003 07:34 am
It is indeed a grand piece by Simon Hoggart, Steve.

Walter, thanks for posting the story by the Iraqi living in Britain. He is on point, isn't he? We do not think of the citizens who will die as real people. It is impossible for us, in our insular and comfortable lives, to conceive of bombs raining down on us, killing family members and destroying our homes and livelihoods.
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