I had the pleasure of watching the personal statement made by Robin Cook on the floor of the house yesterday. Articulate, with subtle passion, he ripped apart piece by piece all the reasons for war. A turly brilliant speech - one which will be remembered for a long long time.
Full Text of Robin Cook's statement
Walter, thanks for the Guardian article.
Yes. We want "our" Iraq, not the Iraqi peoples' Iraq. We want a puppet government, an America in the Middle East.
From Ul's link to Guardian article:
"....Although the prime minister is assured of a parliamentary majority thanks to the support of the Conservative party, Mr Blair last night and this morning was attempting to head off waverers - even recruiting his wife, Cherie, to call up female doubters on his own backbenches....."
And from the same participant's "signature" motto:
"Und als der nächste Krieg begann, da sagten die Frauen: Nein! (Kästner)" [Translation: and as the next war started, the women then said: No!]
This is meant in no way personally, but I question this apparent conflation of "women" as a group - for those unfamiliar with Kästner, he was a writer of fiction - and anti-war causes; and at the very least would ask that Ms. Cherie Blair's activities (entirely improper, btw, since she has no official political role) be reconciled with Kästner's statements.
With due deference to all participants I find any and all attempts to cast "women" as a bloc odious - to put it very mildly - and in the specific case cited above laughably inconsistent.
Or, rather, they would be laughably inconsistent were it not that very many U.S. women in both military and civilian capacities are at risk now, and will be at even greater risk after the first shot in that new war is fired - and it won't be long now - as, of course, are very many similarly situated U.S. men. I would like to state for the record - as must be away from online postings for the duration - my complete and unconditional opposition to any attempt to associate women as a group to any specific political affiliation; in fact, I find such attempts downright insulting, even at peacetime, and, at wartime (citing one example only, Ms. Jane Fonda), downright treasonous.
Hope to see you all again very soon; over and out <G>
HofT,
Be safe, and we will resume the discussion of important issues when you return.
Susan
Walter
Good links. Thank you kindly. The Guardian piece really ought to be read by anyone who has asked or wondered "why do they not trust us?".
HofT
Though now and again you say something with which I might disagree (the only good thing you've seen come out of Canada - an economist and Gretsky - is, of course, an inexcusable failure to acknowledge the Robertson screwdriver) you NEVER say anything stupid.
I myself am quite pleased with the Robertson Fastener Drive System, and employ it extensively. The square bits and sockets call for far less bit-changing than Phillips Drive, and the screwheads are much less prone to stripping out. Obviously, Canada has some very gifted thinkers.
Blair has just made a brilliant impassioned and powerful speech outlining how we got here, and why its necessary to follow through.
I'm sure he convinced many doubters to support the govt motion and not the rebel ammendment. (Conservative mp's asking for the whole text to receive the widest possible circulation!)
I don't think the rebellion this time will be significantly greater than last time, and the govt will win comfortably. However this is a 3 LINE WHIPPED vote, and as the oppostion is voting WITH the govt, they are guaranteed a majority. BUT if this was a free vote (i.e. vote according to conscience free from directive to vote for the party line) THEN I wonder if there would be a majority for war. I will be asking my MP exactly that when Walter and I meet him on Friday.
I have just listened to/watched two truly historic moments in the House of commons in less than 24 hours.
(Labour mp just sat down saying "if USA aspires to world leadership, it must produce a world leader")
timber
I ought to have known. Though you do omit mention of the stability of the Robertson screw once place onto the driver, a quality which has surely mitigated numberless curses which would otherwise have risen to offend the ears of heaven.
Steve
Please feel free, when you and Walter meet with your MP, to pass on the example of our PM who has refused to join an action he sees and describes as both unnecessary and destructive to world peace.
steve, I have listened to some of Tony Blair's talk, and he is as articulate as always. A gifted speaker. If anyone could bring the public along behind him, it is Blair. I wish he was on the other side, arguing against war.
Marvelous wit from the Labour member, but perhaps too easy a pot-shot.
Kara wrote:Walter, thanks for the Guardian article.
Yes. We want "our" Iraq, not the Iraqi peoples' Iraq. We want a puppet government, an America in the Middle East.
That may be what you want, Kara, but it is not what I nor most Americans want, nor do I believe for a second that it is what this administration wants.
Quote:Fleischer would not rule out a US attack before Bush's 48 hour clock ran out if the Iraqi leader rejects the exile offer. "Saddam Hussein has to figure out what this means," he said.
Well, seems that after the end of the London debate in a short time, all could start now.
Blatham
I will certainly draw Bill Rammell's attention to the views of Jean Chretien, and pass on your comments about Robin Cook's resignation speech if I get the chance. (Although it would help if Chretien wasn't French Canadian...!) "Whatever the cirumstances France will vote NO!" someone just said.
Kara
I certainly wish Blair was arguing for further time for Blix to complete his work. ("Not years not weeks but months") Perhaps then we would not have 1/3 of the entire British military at station in the Gulf. But if the circumstances were reversed and it was French and German troops backing American forces, it would be just the same in a fundamental way i.e. this is all driven by American geopolitical imperatives. I confess to being pulled all over the place with this issue. America is going to re order the middle east to suit America, and there is absolutely nothing I, nor Tony Blair nor Vladimir Putin nor indeed you (despite your noble protests which I admire very much btw) can do to alter the course of events.
Walter,
Could well happen tonight.
Vote is at 22.00 GMT
Saddam and his son have already told Bush what he can do with his ultimatum.
The Americans are concerned about a pre emptive Iraqi strike. So they might want to get their pre emptive pre-emptive strike in first before the Iraqis can get in a pre emptive pre emptive pre.... is that enough pre emptives? strike... before er
well it could well happen very soon. And we enter a Brave New World
There is no question that it is a new world; the only question is whether or not we will be brave in it.
Walter, thanks for the link to the BBC live. But I am getting nothing else done as I must sit in on history.
Kara
are you watching or just listening?
I'm watching at
http://www.parliamentlive.tv/hocvid.asp
That BBC link shows the live video, Steve, plus a text summary.
