The US, UN & Iraq II

"i truely believe that if Bush and Blair wanted a settlement with Saddam they would not have included the benchmark of Saddam making a public apology on his national television. this is TOTALLY non-relevant and reeks of school yard bully demanding the word "uncle"..."

I didn't react that way on first hearing. I thought, what a stupid and irrelevant condition. So he goes on TV and mouths some words.....what is the relevance of that? Has absolutely no relationship to anything of importance.

Now, BillW. A resolution implys resolve. As in, 'to do something'.

It is ridiculous to require it because if he did do it, it wouldn't mean anything anyway. As you say sumac, "what a stupid and irrelevant condition"

That was what I said roger, a "resolution"

Then you would not require a public mea culpa from my fictional CEO?

we never get one so i dont expect it. we also dont bomb his corp. over his lack of apology. this is a no brainer.

What I am concerned about is this:

If the assumption is correct, held in some quarters, that the WOMD are buried underneath the ground, either under or near the Presidential palaces or anyplace else, and we go in there with the MOABs, will the detonation bury everything, or set it free into the atmosphere? Or was the detonation of the prototype in Florida last week merely psychological warfare, a priori?

If we have the ability, as some reports suggest, to "x-ray" the ground to see what is buried beneath the sand, how is that accomplished without allowing time to fly over the entire country? I realize that the U-2's were supposed to reveal a great deal, but
that appears to have been derailed. What now?

I am encouraged by recent reports that the Iraqi military command is cracking, but that is only of benefit to those who go in.

I am mightily concerned about the delay here. France has made his (not her) position clear here about the use of the veto. We all know that both France and Russia do not want Saddam out as that would endanger their loans and lucrative contracts. Germany's motivations are still a little unclear in my mind.

Yes, I want it over with. But only because lives will be saved. The train has left the station.

resolve to:

1)determined elimination of WoMD in Iraq
2) continued steps for humanizing the Saddam Regime
3) overcoming the massive hurt the people are experiencing from the sanctions that have been in place for 12 years.

These aren't unreasonable ideas, but it is important to remember that #3 is due to Saddam's absolute and continuing unwillingness to do #1 and #2.

The original Gulf War resolution gave Saddam 15 days to disarm. Do you think his people would have suffered under sanctions for 12 years had he complied in 15 days? While I respect your right to want a non-military solution, lets all be clear as to who has caused those 12 years of suffering, and who has had the ability to end this all along.

just to keep things complicated: "U.S. military predicts greater provocation as North bids for aid

WASHINGTON North Korea is highly likely to step up its provocations in a bid to gain financial aid and diplomatic attention from the United States, according to the two most senior officers overseeing American military operations in South Korea.
.
The commanders' remarks came as a senior State Department official said North Korea could produce highly enriched uranium as fuel for nuclear weapons within months, not years, much earlier than many experts believed possible. That would mean that North Korea could produce weapons-grade material from both its uranium and plutonium programs in a short period of time.
.
?'?'The enriched uranium issue, which some have assumed is somewhere off in the fog of the distant future, is not,'' the official, James Kelly, assistant secretary of state for East Asian and Pacific affairs, told the Senate Foreign Relations Committee on Wednesday.
.
?'?'It is only probably a matter of months, not years, behind the plutonium'' program, he said.
.
The new assessment came amid a string of recent provocations by North Korea that Kelly said were intended to ?'?'blackmail'' the United States and intimidate its allies into bilateral talks on the terms favorable to North Korea.
.
In recent days, North Korea has started a nuclear reactor that could produce plutonium for nuclear weapons, conducted its first missile launching in three years and intercepted an air force reconnaissance plane in international air space.
.
The two senior military officers, Admiral Thomas Fargo, the commander of American forces in the Pacific, and General Leon LaPorte, the head of allied ground forces in South Korea, said North Korea would probably continue this pattern, perhaps by starting up its nuclear reprocessor, provoking an incident along the demilitarized zone or at sea, or even conducting an underground nuclear test.
.
?'?'It's highly likely they'll continue to politically escalate the situation,'' LaPorte told a hearing of the House Armed Services Committee on Wednesday. He added that the motive of North Korea's leader, Kim Jong Il, was to try to ?'?'guarantee the survival of his regime and to gain economic assistance for his failed economy.''
.
Fargo added, ?'?'I would not be surprised to see further provocations of some variety.''
.
Neither officer said there were any signs of an imminent attack by North Korean forces, and Fargo said the threat of war right now with North Korea was ?'?'low.'' The United States has about 37,000 troops stationed in South Korea.
.
Nonetheless, with President George W. Bush nearing a decision about whether he would send more than 225,000 American troops to attack Iraq, the senior officers' remarks Wednesday raised the likelihood that tensions on the Korean Peninsula could be increasing just as bombs were falling on Baghdad. In response to lawmakers' questions and in brief interviews after the hearing, neither Fargo nor LaPorte discussed military options for curtailing North Korea's increasingly provocative actions.
.
Instead, Fargo underscored that the United States needed to work with regional allies like Japan, South Korea, China and Russia to help defuse the mounting crisis with North Korea, which is on course to expand its nuclear arsenal.
.
?'?'It's important for North Korea to understand this is unacceptable behavior not only from a regional standpoint, but from an international standpoint,'' Admiral Fargo said.
.
Restarting the Yongbyon nuclear reactor has prompted fears that North Korea intends to produce weapons-grade material for its own nuclear arsenal as well as for sales on the international black market.
.
LaPorte repeated American intelligence estimates that if North Korea began reprocessing existing fuel rods at Yongbyon, it could produce enough material for five to eight weapons within a year.
.
?'?'We see no indications that the Kim regime will change the policies of military first, brinkmanship and missile proliferation throughout the world,'' he said.
.
Fargo said his Pacific Command had taken steps to lessen the chance that the North Koreans miscalculate in their actions. Two dozen B-1 and B-52 bombers have flown from the United States to Guam in the western Pacific.
.
In South Korea, U.S. Air Force F-117 stealth fighter planes were expected to take part for the first time in seven years in war games with American and South Korean forces. Six F-117's from Holloman Air Force Base in New Mexico were expected to arrive Friday at Kunsan Air Base about 200 miles (320 kilometers) south of Seoul. U.S. military predicts greater provocation as North bids for aid

WASHINGTON North Korea is highly likely to step up its provocations in a bid to gain financial aid and diplomatic attention from the United States, according to the two most senior officers overseeing American military operations in South Korea.
.
The commanders' remarks came as a senior State Department official said North Korea could produce highly enriched uranium as fuel for nuclear weapons within months, not years, much earlier than many experts believed possible. That would mean that North Korea could produce weapons-grade material from both its uranium and plutonium programs in a short period of time.
.
?'?'The enriched uranium issue, which some have assumed is somewhere off in the fog of the distant future, is not,'' the official, James Kelly, assistant secretary of state for East Asian and Pacific affairs, told the Senate Foreign Relations Committee on Wednesday.
.
?'?'It is only probably a matter of months, not years, behind the plutonium'' program, he said.
.
The new assessment came amid a string of recent provocations by North Korea that Kelly said were intended to ?'?'blackmail'' the United States and intimidate its allies into bilateral talks on the terms favorable to North Korea.
.
In recent days, North Korea has started a nuclear reactor that could produce plutonium for nuclear weapons, conducted its first missile launching in three years and intercepted an air force reconnaissance plane in international air space.
.
The two senior military officers, Admiral Thomas Fargo, the commander of American forces in the Pacific, and General Leon LaPorte, the head of allied ground forces in South Korea, said North Korea would probably continue this pattern, perhaps by starting up its nuclear reprocessor, provoking an incident along the demilitarized zone or at sea, or even conducting an underground nuclear test.
.
?'?'It's highly likely they'll continue to politically escalate the situation,'' LaPorte told a hearing of the House Armed Services Committee on Wednesday. He added that the motive of North Korea's leader, Kim Jong Il, was to try to ?'?'guarantee the survival of his regime and to gain economic assistance for his failed economy.''
.
Fargo added, ?'?'I would not be surprised to see further provocations of some variety.''
.
Neither officer said there were any signs of an imminent attack by North Korean forces, and Fargo said the threat of war right now with North Korea was ?'?'low.'' The United States has about 37,000 troops stationed in South Korea.
.
Nonetheless, with President George W. Bush nearing a decision about whether he would send more than 225,000 American troops to attack Iraq, the senior officers' remarks Wednesday raised the likelihood that tensions on the Korean Peninsula could be increasing just as bombs were falling on Baghdad. In response to lawmakers' questions and in brief interviews after the hearing, neither Fargo nor LaPorte discussed military options for curtailing North Korea's increasingly provocative actions.
.
Instead, Fargo underscored that the United States needed to work with regional allies like Japan, South Korea, China and Russia to help defuse the mounting crisis with North Korea, which is on course to expand its nuclear arsenal.
.
?'?'It's important for North Korea to understand this is unacceptable behavior not only from a regional standpoint, but from an international standpoint,'' Admiral Fargo said.
.
Restarting the Yongbyon nuclear reactor has prompted fears that North Korea intends to produce weapons-grade material for its own nuclear arsenal as well as for sales on the international black market.
.
LaPorte repeated American intelligence estimates that if North Korea began reprocessing existing fuel rods at Yongbyon, it could produce enough material for five to eight weapons within a year.
.
?'?'We see no indications that the Kim regime will change the policies of military first, brinkmanship and missile proliferation throughout the world,'' he said.
.
Fargo said his Pacific Command had taken steps to lessen the chance that the North Koreans miscalculate in their actions. Two dozen B-1 and B-52 bombers have flown from the United States to Guam in the western Pacific.
.
In South Korea, U.S. Air Force F-117 stealth fighter planes were expected to take part for the first time in seven years in war games with American and South Korean forces. Six F-117's from Holloman Air Force Base in New Mexico were expected to arrive Friday at Kunsan Air Base about 200 miles (320 kilometers) south of Seoul. U.S. military predicts greater provocation as North bids for aid

WASHINGTON North Korea is highly likely to step up its provocations in a bid to gain financial aid and diplomatic attention from the United States, according to the two most senior officers overseeing American military operations in South Korea.
.
The commanders' remarks came as a senior State Department official said North Korea could produce highly enriched uranium as fuel for nuclear weapons within months, not years, much earlier than many experts believed possible. That would mean that North Korea could produce weapons-grade material from both its uranium and plutonium programs in a short period of time.

The clear, concise message we should be sending is that no amount of provocation will bring us to the table with aid. NK needs to reverse its current course and get back in comliance with existing treaties before it asks us to enter into any new arrangements. This should be non-negotiable. If we send the message that provocation will get them what they want, we only give them an incentive to continue to escalate with further provocative actions.

http://www.globalpolicy.org/wtc/targets/2002/0329iraq.htm

Interesting article on the rules of Iraq ceasefire. c.i.

An early example that still holds the truth of it pronouncements today.

My son is there. This is his second tour in the area. His first was a dozen years ago. He has much better quarters this time, he informs me, though the sandstorms are a real bitch.



timber

This thread moves at lightspeed.



Roger, I don't put politics above friendship. But I put principle above being controlled. The truth? I think he is PO'd that I won't be going to the ACC tournament with him on Saturday. Basketball is much more serious business in NC than politics.





Tartarin. Yes, yes, and yes.




Tartarin and dys, and sumac who said just about the same thing. I, as did Bill, laughed out loud when I heard that item on the wish-list. It is like moving the target everytime someone gets close.





Good link c.i.

timber

Karabara - when do you leave? Fly or drive? Enquiring minds just want to be nosy. Actually, I will be looking for you on the TV, so just wave to me, ok?


hehehehehe

You want details, cobalt? I am going up on a bus, leaving at 6 am, return midnite.

You will see me on TV, standing on a tank, waving an American flag.

I am having a tee-shirt made. It reads PATRIOTS (then an insert of an American flag) FOR A PEACEFUL SOLUTION.

I am head of a new group with that name. I am, so far, the only member.

A bit from Joe Conason:

Of all the constantly changing reasons for war on Iraq that have emanated from the White House since last summer, there has been only one that ever sounded compelling: the prospect of an atomic bomb wielded by Saddam Hussein. None of the other weapons said to be in the possession of the Baghdad dictator poses an imminent threat to the United States. A nuclear device might.

If Saddam possesses a nuclear weapon?-or could someday build a nuclear weapon?-then he would be almost as dangerous as Kim Jong Il (who probably has one or two atomic bombs and the ballistic missiles to deliver them). If he got a nuclear weapon, Saddam could threaten Israel, or smuggle it into the United States. That's why hawkish pundits and politicians, including President George W. Bush, emphasize the potential Iraqi bomb as their favorite casus belli.

Uttered last September by National Security Advisor Condoleezza Rice, the best line has been repeated ominously many times since: "We don't want the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud." Mr. Bush warned last fall that "Iraq is reconstituting its nuclear-weapons program... Satellite photographs reveal that Iraq is rebuilding facilities at sites that have been part of its nuclear program in the past.... We don't know whether or not he has a nuclear weapon. He recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa, according to the British government …. And he is moving ever closer to developing a nuclear weapon."

The documents that show Saddam tried to buy uranium from Africa, which were cited by the President in his State of the Union address? Oh, they were forged.

The revelation of that fraud marked the second severe embarrassment to Anglo-American intelligence in a single month. The first occurred within days after Powell's presentation to the U.N. Security Council, when the British were forced to admit that their analysts had plagiarized some of the material cited by America's chief diplomat from a California graduate student.

So far, spokesmen for the U.S. and British governments have not tried to deny that the uranium documents were bogus. Asked about the fake papers by Tim Russert on NBC's Meet the Press, Powell replied blandly: "If that information is inaccurate, fine."

With all due respect to the Secretary, the appropriate word isn't "inaccurate"?-and it isn't "fine," either.

It is horrific to contemplate that someone would fabricate a document to foment a war likely to kill thousands. It is humiliating to think that American intelligence services cannot distinguish a fake of that kind?-or, worse still, would consciously pass along such a fake to an international authority. It is troubling to realize that the quality of information used by the President as he prepares for war may be no better than that.

And it is impossible not to wonder what other lies and myths are being spread to justify this war.

Joe Conason's Journal

Timber

What is your son's position on the "Gulf War Syndrome" or whatever the hell made all those guys sick?